New Special: Canon or Not?

Post by **Herms** » Wed Nov 26, 2008 5:52 am

Gozar wrote:I don't believe for a second that he really watched over the Daizenshuu. The man also gave the approval of GT in a letter. So forgive me if I don't buy into the "Toriyama wrote a letter therefore it's canon" theory.

I think I'm just going to quote something I wrote earlier about Toriyama's involvement in the daizenshuu:

Toriyama did not directly write any of the daizenshuu. They were produced by Shueisha, the company that publishes Dragon Ball and Weekly Shounen Jump. However, he was heavily involved in their production. Each one features a long interview from him (Daizenshuu 2 even has two; one in the book itself and one in the Shenlong Times add-in, where he talks with his three editors). Each one also opens with a paragraph of introduction from him, in which he basically praises the work of the staff and calls himself a moron (typical Japanese humility). In 7’s intro he says he wished he had the book to use as a reference while making the series. He also drew the cover for each daizenshuu, and some other extra images as well. Each of the Shenlong Times inserts features a different short comic drawn by Toriyama about what he's up to now that Dragon Ball is over. Shenlong Times #7 has an interview with him on his plans for the future and his involvement in GT.

They also include a lot of his comments on things, particularly Daizenshuu 4, which has a many comments from him on his favorite things from the series: his favorite characters and why, his favorite fights, his favorite places, and such. 4 also features Toriyama's comments on each vehicle featured in Dragon Ball (the inspiration for them, and some background information on their capabilities and whatnot), some rough character sketches from his notebook, a map of the Dragon Ball cosmos which he drew, and a map of the Dragon Ball Earth which he supervised.

1 deals entirely with his Dragon Ball artwork, and features his comments on it, as well as background information on each piece.

5 features the memos which Toriyama wrote to the anime staff, providing ideas for filler material, character designs for filler characters, and the color schemes for characters who hadn't appeared in color in the manga yet.

6 features the character designs Toriyama drew of the movie characters, and his comments on them.

7 features a special good-bye message and image from Toriyama, some rare illustrations of his which weren't included in Daizenshuu 2, including many short comics he had done, a special selection of Toriyama’s comments that went with each chapter as it originally ran in Jump (not the same as his tankoubon intros), more background information supplied from Toriyama’s notes, and other stuff

Gozar · Post by **Gozar** » Wed Nov 26, 2008 6:06 am

jda95 wrote:But does that mean canon ends there?

I have always believed that every person is entitled to their own personal beliefs and own personal canon. Whether it be Movie, Filler, Daizenshuu, whatever. HOWEVER this causes personal beliefs to conflict with other peoples. Therefore I believe that there is a set of facts which cannot be disputed. This being stuff directly by Toriyama (In other words, the Manga). Anything else is up to personal interpretation and belief. But are by no means set in stone "facts".

Herms wrote:I think I'm just going to quote something I wrote earlier about Toriyama's involvement in the daizenshuu:

*snip*

Yes, I realize there was stuff he did specifically for the Daizenhsuu. But that does not mean that allows the writers of it to pull random thoughts out of their butts and thus make it a "fact". Toriyama did character designs for the movies and GT and they are not viewed as canon. Why should involvement with this be any different.

Post by **Herms** » Wed Nov 26, 2008 6:55 am

Gozar wrote:Yes, I realize there was stuff he did specifically for the Daizenhsuu. But that does not mean that allows the writers of it to pull random thoughts out of their butts and thus make it a "fact".

They didn't. 99.9% of everything in the daizenshuu is taken either straight from the manga or anime (which they go to lengths to keep seperate), from Toriyama, or from the anime staff. There are a very small amount of original information that aren't sourced, but the fact that the vast majority of original information in the books is straight from the Toriyama and the anime staff, the burden of proof is on you to show that they were simply made up by those compiling the daizenshuu.

Toriyama did character designs for the movies and GT and they are not viewed as canon. Why should involvement with this be any different.

Because his involvement in the daizenshuu was far greater than with them? Because, as I've already said, he didn't merely do character designs, but provided actual background information? Because he wrote saying he himself would have liked to have them as a reference, something he doesn't say about the movies and GT?

temujin · Post by **temujin** » Wed Nov 26, 2008 7:59 am

I'm sorry. But I don't accept details randomly pussed out of the Daizenshuu. To me they're no different from a Fanfic.

My take on this, daizenshuu a fanfic?????:lol:

Because his involvement in the daizenshuu was far greater than with them? Because, as I've already said, he didn't merely do character designs, but provided actual background information? Because he wrote saying he himself would have liked to have them as a reference, something he doesn't say about the movies and GT?

Exactly!
But you know when a fanboy sees something who contradicts their personal,subjective belief about dbz in daizenshuu,ok,we can't use daizenshuu.

Toriyama even wrote several parts in the daizenshuu like A-18 and A17 secret stories i believe.

Post by **Herms** » Wed Nov 26, 2008 9:21 am

temujin wrote:Toriyama even wrote several parts in the daizenshuu like A-18 and A17 secret stories i believe.

Yeah, there's a page in Daizenshuu 7 where he answers questions about the characters, and when asked about No.17 and 18's past he says they used to be twin delinquents who met Gero by accident when he was searching for fresh "supplies", and that's how they winded up as artificial humans.

Gozar · Post by **Gozar** » Wed Nov 26, 2008 7:18 pm

I have no problem with things if I know they came directly from Toriyama. But I don't believe he wrote every piece of new information. 99.9% is clearly an exaggerated number because there's way too many new things. I have no problem if people want to believe that. But to me they are by no means a solidified fact. There are several things from the Daizenshuu that I DO believe. I pick and choose for my own personal canon. But that doesn't mean everyone has to believe them.

To me the Daizenshuu is in a similar boat as the new Special. There are parts that are from Toriyama but it's not entirely his. It's up to personal interpritation as to if it's canon or not.

Dayspring · Post by **Dayspring** » Wed Nov 26, 2008 7:28 pm

Olivier Hague wrote:
Dayspring wrote:Vegeta looked as surprised as anybody that Tarble existed. I take this to mean he figured Tarble for dead.
On the contrary: he knew Tarble had been sent on another planet and doesn't seem surprised to see him alive. He simply wonders why he's here, on Earth.

No, I mean I figured that Vegeta thought Tarble died on whatever planet he got sent to. It would explain why he never contacted Vegeta or any other Saiyan until decades later.

Olivier Hague · Post by **Olivier Hague** » Wed Nov 26, 2008 7:38 pm

Gozar wrote:It's up to personal interpritation as to if it's canon or not.

Sure.
What's not up to personal interpretation though, is that the Daizenshû are nothing like fanfiction.

Dayspring wrote:I figured that Vegeta thought Tarble died on whatever planet he got sent to. It would explain why he never contacted Vegeta or any other Saiyan until decades later.

'Doesn't seem that way to me, considering Vegeta's initial reaction...

Gozar · Post by **Gozar** » Wed Nov 26, 2008 7:49 pm

Olivier Hague wrote:
Gozar wrote:It's up to personal interpritation as to if it's canon or not.
Sure.
What's not up to personal interpretation though, is that the Daizenshû are nothing like fanfiction.

Let me put it to you this way. Fanfics have always played up the Goku/Vegeta rivalry in a funny way. I've read many with eating contests. Before this special such a thought was just silly fanfiction. Now we have it for real. All I'm saying is, a lot of the stuff that you see as new information in the Daizenshuu is similar to the stuff you'd see in a fanfiction.

Hell, those 3 Side Stories. Namely Trunks' I felt like it was just really bad fanfiction. Trunks was written terribly. I don't feel that merely working on the Anime authorizes people to make stuff up.

MajinVejitaXV · Post by **MajinVejitaXV** » Wed Nov 26, 2008 8:05 pm

Gozar wrote:Let me put it to you this way. Fanfics have always played up the Goku/Vegeta rivalry in a funny way. I've read many with eating contests. Before this special such a thought was just silly fanfiction. Now we have it for real. All I'm saying is, a lot of the stuff that you see as new information in the Daizenshuu is similar to the stuff you'd see in a fanfiction.

That's a pretty goofy statement. Fan-fiction is simply something written by a fan. I've read great fan-fiction and horrible fan-fiction. Saying the Daizenshuu are similar to fan-fiction is pretty much a statement without any meaning.

Now, if you're saying it's like bad fan-fiction, might I direct you to DragonBall GT? ;p

-Corey

Gozar · Post by **Gozar** » Wed Nov 26, 2008 8:28 pm

MajinVejitaXV wrote:That's a pretty goofy statement. Fan-fiction is simply something written by a fan. I've read great fan-fiction and horrible fan-fiction. Saying the Daizenshuu are similar to fan-fiction is pretty much a statement without any meaning.

Now, if you're saying it's like bad fan-fiction, might I direct you to DragonBall GT? ;p

-Corey

Good fanfiction. But some of the stuff that it says is still like something you'd read in one. Almost to make the viewer happy without much thought into the concept. Look, all I'm trying to say is. I don't care who someone is. If they're not Toriyama then it's not a "fact".

Olivier Hague · Post by **Olivier Hague** » Wed Nov 26, 2008 8:38 pm

Gozar wrote:Look, all I'm trying to say is. I don't care who someone is. If they're not Toriyama then it's not a "fact".

If it's approved by Toriyama, it's already well above fanfiction.

Gozar · Post by **Gozar** » Wed Nov 26, 2008 9:00 pm

Olivier Hague wrote:
Gozar wrote:Look, all I'm trying to say is. I don't care who someone is. If they're not Toriyama then it's not a "fact".
If it's approved by Toriyama, it's already well above fanfiction.

As I said. He also approved GT. Saying that he approves of these books as a whole isn't the same thing.

Olivier Hague · Post by **Olivier Hague** » Wed Nov 26, 2008 9:58 pm

Gozar wrote:As I said. He also approved GT.

And Dragon Ball GT is well above fanfiction. It's official, like it or not.

Gozar · Post by **Gozar** » Wed Nov 26, 2008 10:28 pm

Olivier Hague wrote:
Gozar wrote:As I said. He also approved GT.
And Dragon Ball GT is well above fanfiction. It's official, like it or not.

Yet still very much non-canon. Look if you wanna harp on a mere comparison that's fine. But I've seen Fanfics FAR more faithful to Toriyama than GT was.

Kid Trunks · Post by **Kid Trunks** » Wed Nov 26, 2008 10:30 pm

Olivier Hague wrote:
Gozar wrote:As I said. He also approved GT.
And Dragon Ball GT is well above fanfiction. It's official, like it or not.

Officially what? Officially non-canon? Me thinks so.

Post by **Herms** » Thu Nov 27, 2008 12:58 am

Gozar wrote:I have no problem with things if I know they came directly from Toriyama. But I don't believe he wrote every piece of new information. 99.9% is clearly an exaggerated number because there's way too many new things.

What I said is that 99.9% of everything in the daizenshuu is taken either straight from the manga or anime, from Toriyama, or from the anime staff. OK, so I haven't counted everything up and gotten exact percentages, but it is a fact that the vast, vast majority of the information in the daizenshuu is information taken straight from the series. Most of the new information found in the daizenshuu isn't about "in-universe" matters where problems of canon apply, but rather information about the production of the manga/anime (Toriyama and anime staff interviews, background information on Toriyama's color artwork pieces, episode air dates, etc). The total amount of new "in-universe" information found in the daizenshuu is actually relatively small. There's none at all in 1, 3, or 5, very little in 2, 6, and 10 (like less than 1%), a good deal in 4, and by far the most in 7. Even in 4 and 7, were most of it is located, it's still a very small part of those books' contents, maybe 5% at the very most, and putting all the daizenshuu together, that information would at most take up 1-2% of their overall content (even less if you include 8 and 9, the two card game daizenshuu). Of this new "in-universe" information, I'd estimate at least half is shown as coming directly from Toriyama, and much more can be strongly argued to come from him. Then some of it is from the anime staff and conerns anime-only stuff. So all in all, the amount of stuff in the daizenshuu that could have even potentially been made up by the daizenshuu staff themselves is really, really small. And again, given the above I see no reason to think that they did simply make it up.

Gozar · Post by **Gozar** » Thu Nov 27, 2008 1:58 am

Herms wrote:Of this new "in-universe" information, I'd estimate at least half is shown as coming directly from Toriyama, and much more can be strongly argued to come from him. Then some of it is from the anime staff and conerns anime-only stuff. So all in all, the amount of stuff in the daizenshuu that could have even potentially been made up by the daizenshuu staff themselves is really, really small. And again, given the above I see no reason to think that they did simply make it up.

Look, I just look at stuff like Tenshinhan being a member of a 3 eyed race and scratch my head about that. I don't believe there's a whole race of them. I've always taken it as the Chinese Myth of opening a 3'rd Chakra eye. I'm just not so sure that stuff like that came directly from the man himself, ya know?

Olivier Hague · Post by **Olivier Hague** » Thu Nov 27, 2008 2:22 am

Gozar wrote:
Olivier Hague wrote:Dragon Ball GT is well above fanfiction. It's official, like it or not.
Yet still very much non-canon.

Not for you and me, but some might disagree.

I've seen Fanfics FAR more faithful to Toriyama than GT was.

Dragon Ball GT would still be more official than them.

Kid Trunks wrote:Officially what?

I typed "official".

Gozar wrote:I just look at stuff like Tenshinhan being a member of a 3 eyed race and scratch my head about that. I don't believe there's a whole race of them.

Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.

the Chinese Myth of opening a 3'rd Chakra eye

("Chakra" doesn't sound all that Chinese to me, but hey)

SaiyaMel · Post by **SaiyaMel** » Thu Nov 27, 2008 2:34 am

Arguing over this "canon/non canon" stuff, kind of takes the fun out of things regarding this...

Hell, it's been shown that Toriyama (with his memory) isn't always so reliable himself when it comes down to details/facts. So we gotta go by what we have (Daizenshuus and new special).