New Special: Canon or Not?

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Gozar
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Post by Gozar » Thu Nov 27, 2008 3:27 am

Olivier Hague wrote:Dragon Ball GT would still be more official than them.
Here's where my problem arises. More times than not BIG FANS have a better grasp of these characters than the people who worked on GT and the Movies do. I don't trust them to tell me stuff about the characters.
Olivier Hague wrote:("Chakra" doesn't sound all that Chinese to me, but hey)
Isn't the 3'rd eye Myth Chinese?
Olivier Hague wrote:Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
This is all I'm saying. It's all opinion this stuff. No solid fact.
SaiyaMel wrote:Hell, it's been shown that Toriyama (with his memory) isn't always so reliable himself when it comes down to details/facts. So we gotta go by what we have (Daizenshuus and new special).
If you want to that's fine. But I don't accept ideas pulled out of the air from people who are not Toriyama.

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Post by Olivier Hague » Thu Nov 27, 2008 3:58 am

Gozar wrote:Isn't the 3'rd eye Myth Chinese?
Nope.
Olivier Hague wrote:Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
This is all I'm saying. It's all opinion this stuff. No solid fact.
No.
Tenshinhan descending from aliens? I'm afraid that's official.
You don't like that? It's your opinion.
You don't consider that detail canonical? It's your opinion.
But it's still official. It's still not fanfiction at all (as fanfiction, by definition, isn't official).
I don't accept ideas pulled out of the air from people who are not Toriyama.
How do you know (<- emphasis) that was "pulled out of the air"?

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Post by sailorspazz » Thu Nov 27, 2008 4:25 am

Gozar wrote: Isn't the 3'rd eye Myth Chinese?
It's used in both Hindu and Buddhist mythology, which both originated in India. So though China is considered a largely Buddhist country, the religion is not originally from there (and I'm not sure if the sect of Buddhism most common in China is one of the types that includes the third eye mythology).
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Post by Chuquita » Thu Nov 27, 2008 5:04 am

I'm still having trouble wrapping my head around the fact that Vegeta is no longer an only child, and I'm seriously wondering who started spoiling Goku silly.


Either way, I write fics and I draw comics; so "canon" in the DB world is all relative to me. For anything that takes place outside of the manga (this counts for all specials and movies, and sometimes the anime) I simply pick and choose like a buffet table at a restaurant. :D


The important thing this special did was re-spark my fire and remind me why I love this series so damn much. :mrgreen:
And that's good enough for me.
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Post by Yamcha_krillin » Thu Nov 27, 2008 5:54 am

Gregory was in the special and he is a non-canon character.

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Post by Herms » Thu Nov 27, 2008 6:48 am

Yamcha_krillin wrote:Gregory was in the special and he is a non-canon character.
Though he was conceived of and designed by Toriyama.
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Post by Onikage725 » Thu Nov 27, 2008 10:29 am

Gregory's presence could just point to it being canon to the anime and not necessarily the manga. I much prefer the Star Wars view of canon levels to the typical DB fan view of manga or bust. Toriyama himself isn't that strict about his acceptance of DB-related material. I really don't know why the manga is treated as equivalent to an infallible religious text.
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Post by Kid Trunks » Thu Nov 27, 2008 2:40 pm

Olivier Hague wrote:
Kid Trunks wrote:Officially what?
I typed "official".
Yeah. But unless you say in what way its official, its up for interpretation.

Anyway, I think the special is canon, and GT isn't. Mainly because the special falls in between the beginning and end of the manga, and I always tend to count that stuff as canon (provided it doesn't contradict the manga). That includes filler. It's a convenient logic for me since I dislike GT, but I like it that way.

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Post by SaiyaMel » Thu Nov 27, 2008 2:54 pm

I agree with the above statements by Kid Trunks and Onikage725.
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Post by Olivier Hague » Thu Nov 27, 2008 3:07 pm

Kid Trunks wrote:unless you say in what way its official, its up for interpretation.
"Official" as per the definition of the word in the dictionary. 'Should go without saying, really.

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Post by temujin » Thu Nov 27, 2008 3:10 pm

No.
Tenshinhan descending from aliens? I'm afraid that's official.
You don't like that? It's your opinion.
You don't consider that detail canonical? It's your opinion.
But it's still official. It's still not fanfiction at all (as fanfiction, by definition, isn't official).
True!Tenshinhan as an alien descendant is a little inconvenient.
Though he was conceived of and designed by Toriyama.
Correct.
I really don't know why the manga is treated as equivalent to an infallible religious text.
Because some of them hate some informations given by the daizenshuu.
How do you know (<- emphasis) that was "pulled out of the air"?
He doesn't.

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Post by Kid Trunks » Thu Nov 27, 2008 3:17 pm

Olivier Hague wrote:
Kid Trunks wrote:unless you say in what way its official, its up for interpretation.
"Official" as per the definition of the word in the dictionary. 'Should go without saying, really.
'Official' doesn't necessarily mean 'canon'.

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Post by Joey Batz » Thu Nov 27, 2008 3:38 pm

Here's my take on things, and remember that this is my OPINION, so don't Spirit Bomb my house, please.

First, the manga is the end-all of Dragon Ball canon. I think we can agree on that. But there is also a lot of other official material that isn't canon because it isn't in the manga. Even though many of these things were either directly written by Toriyama, or had his involvement in the production and/or approval, they aren't canon to the story because they aren't in the manga. Remember, they are still official (we aren't talking fanfics here) and as much a part of the Dragon Ball franchise as Son Goku himself. They just aren't canon to the manga.

The movies are the perfect example. I think most of us will agree that the movies aren't canon. But would any of us call them fanfiction? No way! They all had Toriyama's involvement and are officially licensed by Toei and whatnot. They are official, but they are not canon. Most of the anime filler, Dragon Ball GT, and the Playdia OVA thing (Plan to Eradicate the Saiyans) also fall into that category. GT, for example, is the official continuation to the Dragon Ball Z anime and in no way can be compared to fanfics (in context. Say what you will about its quality but that's a much different story). It is part of the "anime canon", but not the "manga canon", the latter of which as I said is widely believed to be the end-all of Dragon Ball canon.

Now all this is regardless of whether or not Toriyama wrote it. Toriyama was involved in GT, but that doesn't make GT canon to the manga. It is also regardless of whether or not the material contradicts the manga. Movie 9 doesn't contradict the manga, but is it canon? No. Awesome, yes, but still not canon.

So where does the special stand? Pretty much it is like everything else. It is official, had Toriyama's involvement (he may have even wrote it, I'm not sure), but it isn't canon to the manga and therefore "non-canon". It may be part of "anime canon", or it may be "movie canon". Or hell, maybe it's whatever the Playdia OVA is, I don't know ("video game canon"?????). But it isn't canon.

But does that really mean anything? To my knowledge, and I could be wrong, it seems the movies are not only non-canon, but were INTENDED to be non-canon. That makes sense. It frees up the constraints on the story created by the canon manga story. Imagine the writers trying to set up the Z-fighters against Turles in Movie 3 when Goku's in a body cast, Gohan and Krillin are in space, and the rest of the Z-fighters are dead! The new special seems to be designed to be, well, just another adventure. Even if there are no major contradictions that come immediately to mind (a la Movies 9 and 13), it just seems that this special is just there to add another adventure to the story for our viewing pleasure. And I think it did just that. I enjoyed every moment of it (though I did think it was a little rushed. Goku got in all of one punch? And no Vegeta battles?)

So pretty much, just enjoy it without worrying about where it fits into the manga. Whether or not it CAN or CANNOT (and this special can) does not matter. You didn't sit there worrying where Cooler's Revenge fit, did you? Or Super Android 13, or Bojack Unbound or Fusion Reborn? Or the Plan to Eradicate the Saiyans? No, you just watched Goku and his friends fighting some "random" villains and winning. What makes the special so damn special? Ah, funny.

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Post by Olivier Hague » Thu Nov 27, 2008 6:57 pm

Kid Trunks wrote:'Official' doesn't necessarily mean 'canon'.
'Good thing I never said it did, then!

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Post by Acid_Reign » Thu Nov 27, 2008 8:02 pm

First off, I'd say it's technically a movie, as it was produced for the big screen.
But it wasn’t shown theatrically. It was produced for a [presumably] big screen, perhaps, but not “the big screen,” i.e., commercially distributed to theaters for viewing by the general public. If it’s not an OVA because it wasn’t released through the direct-to-video market, then by the same token it can’t be a movie as it also wasn’t released through the “direct-to-theaters” market. Irrespective of that, if this animation were indeed considered a film, it would have been produced as such. However, as I’ve pointed out, this clearly isn’t the case:
The frame rate is interesting to me because it is not the 24 or 23.976 that I expected, as the rest of the series plays at, which are the film and digital film speeds respectively. I figured that, even if this wasn’t regarded a “movie” per se, it’d at least match the series for consistency’s sake. But instead, it’s 29.97, which is inherently television (and now Web) territory.
24 fps is the de facto standard for movies, and it has been for so long that it is now regarded an integral part of the “film look,” an effect much-emulated in video due to the perceived superiority of filmic production values, and by association, photographic technique. It is in fact the frame rate sf choice for many filmmakers. But, more than that, it’s also less frames per second than video, and thus easier to animate. So if the intent was to make a movie, there’s already a lot of existing industry preference for that format. The choice to go with 30 fps demonstrates that this was intentionally done in video-like fashion.

Which isn’t to say that this definitely isn’t a movie. Quite the contrary; JUMP actually refers to it as such on their site:
11/1/2008 All the heroes come together on the SHONEN JUMP Super Anime Tour!! Announcing the opening of the official movie site.
(emphasis added).

But then, they also refer to it as a broadcast, so my feeling is that they mean “movie” in the looser sense of an animated story. Which is why these strict definitions don’t seem all that practical to me. Who’s to say that this, being a limited-run animation that was originally produced to video, shouldn’t carry the title “OVA”? Don’t most OVAs generally follow movie formulas anyway?
It was never officially called a "special", I believe.
The other "specials" you're referring were TV specials, i.e. an entirely different kind of animal.
While that’s true, this was produced in celebration of JUMP’s 40th anniversary. In other words, it’s a special occasion. That justifies it enough for me, especially when it’s not so easily otherwise-categorized.

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Post by Tamagon » Thu Nov 27, 2008 9:10 pm

Am I the only one who doesn't give a shit if it's canon?

Dragon Ball's story is a fucking mess even if the movies, specials, and fillers never existed.

And yet, I somehow find Dragon Ball one of my favorite anime/manga of all time.

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Post by Olivier Hague » Thu Nov 27, 2008 9:16 pm

Acid_Reign wrote:It was produced for a [presumably] big screen, perhaps, but not “the big screen,” i.e., commercially distributed to theaters for viewing by the general public.
Not to "regular" theaters, but the wording they use ("jôei") is the same...
it’s also less frames per second than video, and thus easier to animate.
I'm not sure that makes any kind of difference for the animators, actually...

But is the anime really animated at 30 fps? The video is 30 fps, yes, but the actual animation?
I mean... The TV series was aired at 30 fps (because of the NTSC format), but actually shot at 24 fps, right? Hence the "phantom frames"...
I might be completely wrong about this, but I always thought...
these strict definitions don’t seem all that practical to me. Who’s to say that this, being a limited-run animation that was originally produced to video, shouldn’t carry the title “OVA”? Don’t most OVAs generally follow movie formulas anyway?
"Movie formulas"? I'm not sure I follow you...

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Post by Kid Trunks » Thu Nov 27, 2008 9:25 pm

Olivier Hague wrote:
Kid Trunks wrote:'Official' doesn't necessarily mean 'canon'.
'Good thing I never said it did, then!
Then what are you trying to say? You use the word as if it means 'canon'.

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Post by Olivier Hague » Thu Nov 27, 2008 9:37 pm

Kid Trunks wrote:Then what are you trying to say? You use the word as if it means 'canon'.
No, I don't.
I was simply saying that putting fanfiction and the Daizenshû in the same category is nonsense. One obvious difference being that the latter is official and the former isn't.
As for what that difference means in terms of "canon", I think most would agree that something that's not official simply can't be canonical (I guess I could think of a couple of debatable examples, but they would be exceptions), whereas something that is official may (and probably will) be considered canonical by some.

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Post by Majin Buu » Thu Nov 27, 2008 9:58 pm

I can't believe people have an issue (btw, this is unrelated to the above poster) with Tarble. Like Toriyama has never said, "Hey I'm Radditz, I'm your brother.." or "Hey I'm trunks, I'm vegeta and bulma's son from the future.." or "Hey I'm Uuub, I'm majin buu reborn" or whatever. It's no sillier than ANY of those things. I imagine if they had this special go on an hour or so or if there were a series of episodes to make up this story you guys would change your tune. Why? Because then Tarble could be developed more.
I think people have such an issue with Tarble because he's been introduced over a decade after the series has ended. All of those plot points you mentioned probably did surprise people when they were first revealed but they've had over ten years to get used to them. Tarble is a character that seems to have been added to a canon that has been more or less established for over a decade, so for these people to experience such a change to something that they've known to be absolute for so long (Vegeta not having a brother, there are only four Saiyans left), they're gonna raise a big stink over it, no matter how petty it seems.

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