Employment... might it have changed the story?

Post by **Herms** » Sat Oct 10, 2009 12:35 am

penguintruth wrote:Eh, but what does Kami do, day to day? Like, does he really oversee how humanity behaves or help them out in any real way?

We don't really see enough of him to know just what he does day-to-day. He tells Goku when they first meet that he wants the people on Earth to solve their problems themselves, and not simply rely on him (though he does provide them with the dragonballs all the same, maybe because you at least have to go through the trouble of collecting those). So he seems to have a largely hands off policy, and only steps in during times of extreme crisis, like with Ma Junior or the Saiyans. But if nothing else he does always seem to be watching the events on Earth. He knew about Goku's Oozaru transformation and its connection with his tail, implying he was watching Goku at least as far back as the Pilaf arc. He knew about the Mafuuba and the rest of what went on during the Daimao arc, and he was apparently watching during all the Raditz stuffage, and during the gang's first few battles with the androids. He's really quite the voyeur.

penguintruth · Post by **penguintruth** » Sat Oct 10, 2009 12:59 am

I would like to see Kami interfere in a crisis that does not involve Goku and his circle. I mean, really, he just seems worthless. Maybe he should have just let Garlic Senior take that role, at least he would have shook things up.

Post by **Herms** » Sat Oct 10, 2009 1:39 am

penguintruth wrote:I would like to see Kami interfere in a crisis that does not involve Goku and his circle.

Eh, well "crises that involve Goku and his circle" pretty much covers everything that ever happens in DB. They're the main characters, so what do we ever see in the series that doesn't involve them?

And Kami's far from worthless. He created the titular dragonballs afterall, and if it weren't for him training Goku in the 23rd TB arc, sending Goku to train with Kaio, and training the Earthlings, the Earth would have been destroyed twice over. He's not the central hero, but he more than holds his own as an old master-type character.

Bussani · Post by **Bussani** » Sat Oct 10, 2009 2:43 am

penguintruth wrote:I would like to see Kami interfere in a crisis that does not involve Goku and his circle. I mean, really, he just seems worthless. Maybe he should have just let Garlic Senior take that role, at least he would have shook things up.

It wouldn't do for any man to say, "oh, I'll just let god fix this for me." People would never grow or learn for themselves that way.

penguintruth · Post by **penguintruth** » Sat Oct 10, 2009 2:56 am

Let me put it this way.

The God in the DB world:

- Didn't create the world
- Didn't create civilizations
- Doesn't help
- Just watches

So, in what way is he God?

And to prove this, Dende becomes God, and he's equally, if not more useless than the last.

Watching things does not make a God. If that's the only qualification you need to be God, they might as well have made Mr. Popo God. Hell, Farmer with the Shotgun could be God!

Bussani · Post by **Bussani** » Sat Oct 10, 2009 3:05 am

He does as much or more than Kaio has.

penguintruth · Post by **penguintruth** » Sat Oct 10, 2009 3:10 am

Come to think of it, the entire pantheon of gods in the DB universe seem of little use. Perhaps at some point they were much more influential, but experience some kind of decline, perhaps owing to things like Majin Buu's attack.

mister yummy · Post by **mister yummy** » Sat Oct 10, 2009 3:40 am

I like the theory that they were more influential in the past, but esperienced a decline. That's an intriuging idea.

Kami does all sorts of stuff for the planet. after all, he put back The Moon after Roshi destroyed it.

Post by **Herms** » Sat Oct 10, 2009 4:30 am

penguintruth wrote:And to prove this, Dende becomes God, and he's equally, if not more useless than the last.

Dende did revive the dragonballs though, which allowed them to revive everyone killed by Cell. That's got to count for something.

mister yummy wrote:I like the theory that they were more influential in the past, but esperienced a decline. That's an intriuging idea.

If nothing else, thanks to Boo there's only one Kaioshin when there should be five.

mister yummy wrote:Kami does all sorts of stuff for the planet. after all, he put back The Moon after Roshi destroyed it.

Oh, I totally forgot about that, that's a good point. Surely that's a pretty positive thing for the people on Earth. Or at least it was until Piccolo blew the moon up again, but still.

penguintruth wrote:The God in the DB world:

- Didn't create the world
- Didn't create civilizations
- Doesn't help
- Just watches

So, in what way is he God?

Well, he sounds pretty much like God in the real world.

penguintruth · Post by **penguintruth** » Sat Oct 10, 2009 4:48 am

Herms wrote:Well, he sounds pretty much like God in the real world.

Well, that's a theological argument.

caejones · Post by **caejones** » Sat Oct 10, 2009 5:44 am

Dende heals people.

Sure, the planet he was godding blew up, but then he went and brought it back...
And Kami did kinda willingly merge with Piccolo. Does that count for something?

penguintruth · Post by **penguintruth** » Sat Oct 10, 2009 6:10 am

Eh, I still think Kami is a pretty bad God.

I mean, he even tries to give away the position to Goku, out of his own admission of incompetence.

Dayspring · Post by **Dayspring** » Sat Oct 10, 2009 11:46 am

penguintruth wrote:Eh, I still think Kami is a pretty bad God.

I mean, he even tries to give away the position to Goku, out of his own admission of incompetence.

Isn't that just like the Judeo-Christian gods? The Spirit of God is laid to rest on the 7th Day and the Lord God takes over. The Lord God's first action is to make a special man (Adam) to be his gardener so he won't have to (side-note: why does everybody think Adam and Eve are the first humans? They were made after the 7th Day, and man and woman were made on either the 5th or 6th

). His next acts are to make prophets to do his work among humans for him. Oooover and ooooover and oooover. His last action is to make his Son take on His role.

Nothing lasts forever, even deities.

Post by **Herms** » Sat Oct 10, 2009 2:09 pm

penguintruth wrote:I mean, he even tries to give away the position to Goku, out of his own admission of incompetence.

Now there's a scary thought, Goku as God...

Dayspring wrote:(side-note: why does everybody think Adam and Eve are the first humans? They were made after the 7th Day, and man and woman were made on either the 5th or 6th :?).

Because Biblical literalists are loathe to admit that Genesis actually contains two separate and largely contradictory accounts of the creation of the world and mankind, taken from separate documents.

penguintruth · Post by **penguintruth** » Sat Oct 10, 2009 5:49 pm

Herms wrote:
penguintruth wrote:I mean, he even tries to give away the position to Goku, out of his own admission of incompetence.
Now there's a scary thought, Goku as God...

Well, Goku wasn't thrilled about the idea, either.

It's possible even Goku realized that Kami does NOTHING, and didn't want to be bored.

Then again, having to do nothing, Goku could have used the lookout as a place to train. And it would be a lot more difficult to destroy the Dragon Balls.

He could move his family into the lookout, even!

There's an interesting "what if".

caejones · Post by **caejones** » Sat Oct 10, 2009 7:19 pm

Another thread I start in the general board turns into biblical criticism... maybe I should go for a record?

penguintruth wrote: It's possible even Goku realized that Kami does NOTHING, and didn't want to be bored.

Then again, having to do nothing, Goku could have used the lookout as a place to train. And it would be a lot more difficult to destroy the Dragon Balls.

He could move his family into the lookout, even!

There's an interesting "what if".

Would it have been harder to destroy the DBs? Are they linked to the job of Kami, or to their creator?

I kinda think Goku, ChiChi and Gohan could have accomplished plenty if they'd kept up the adventuring in the time-jump. In DB, traveling the world is clearly a form of martial arts training, and I don't see why it wouldn't be an academicly useful venture as well... sounds win-win to me.
Though, I guess they did have a DB or two (or three?) when Raditz showed up.
(Which makes me wonder how the actual DB questing got so dull that it wasn't even shown as soon as the third search... but I guess there are only so many ways to make such a quest interesting without detracting from the plot. Mainly I just want to use the topic to bring up the fact that a couple hours ago I woke up from Shenron complaining (in Japanese) about how foolish the time/place we'd summoned him was, and me trying to decide what wish to make (and not speaking one before waking. T.T).)

penguintruth · Post by **penguintruth** » Sat Oct 10, 2009 7:22 pm

caejones wrote: Would it have been harder to destroy the DBs? Are they linked to the job of Kami, or to their creator?

Good point. I keep forgetting that Kami just happened to be a Namekian, that not being a prerequisite for being God.

Dayspring · Post by **Dayspring** » Sat Oct 10, 2009 7:38 pm

Herms wrote:
penguintruth wrote:I mean, he even tries to give away the position to Goku, out of his own admission of incompetence.
Now there's a scary thought, Goku as God...

"And on the First Day, the Goku God created food. And the Goku God seperated the desserts from the entrees, and saw that is was good."

Dayspring wrote:(side-note: why does everybody think Adam and Eve are the first humans? They were made after the 7th Day, and man and woman were made on either the 5th or 6th ).
Because Biblical literalists are loathe to admit that Genesis actually contains two separate and largely contradictory accounts of the creation of the world and mankind, taken from separate documents.

Still, since most people follow the King James version of the Bible, you'd think they'd at least believe its account and ackonwledge that Adam is either just "a" man or at most the first angel.

Not to go too off-topic, but what version of any Genesis rendition says that God created the universe? All I can find is God changing the shapeless world and created Heaven with chunks of it. Albeit, this makes Him responsible for the world as we know it, but the universe and even the planet clearly existed in some form long before Him.

Onikage725 · Post by **Onikage725** » Sat Oct 10, 2009 8:17 pm

saiyanprincess wrote:I could imagine Vegeta getting a job as a debt collecter, Knocking on the doors of poor people and roughing them up and stealing what little belongings they have.

How many people wanna kick some ass?
I do, I do

the_abberration · Post by **the_abberration** » Sat Oct 10, 2009 8:39 pm

Well Lord Slug did offer Goku and Krillin a job that one time in the dub