Toriyama's Intended Ending(s): A Guided Tour

[PuppetDoctor]

Wow that was a very nice and long informative read. Great job Herms.

[Herms]

The closest thing to "evidence" I can give on the theory about the Freeza arc is what I said at the Otakon panel on Saturday night. When I had lunch with Chris Sabat at AnimeMilwaukee, he mentioned he had gotten the chance to meet Toriyama during a promotional event for the American release of Shonen Jump (not sure where this took place, but this must've MANY years ago) and during a conversation with him (and most likely his translator) he said that he "originally wanted to end it with Freeza". That's STRAIGHT from a horse's mouth who isn't just some guy with broken Japanese skills running an old Angelfire DBZ fansite, so I'M taking Sabat's word for it personally. No, it's not public knowledge or in the form of any interview, but I'd say someone who worked on the anime's dub production for +10 years is a fair enough source to trust.

Actually, it sounds like Sabat is thinking of the Toriyama Q&A session recorded in the third issue of Viz’s Shonen Jump. This Q&A session took place at the Viz SJ launch celebration in New York, and Sabat was there. Here’s the into to the Q&A from page 172 of SJ #3:

Kidz Questions for Akira Toriyama
Kids from New York’s Communities in Schools organization managed to wrench the microphone from FUNImation Productions voice actor Chris Sabat at the SHONEN JUMP launch event at Chelsea Piers. In the short time they controlled the podium, the kids fired off a few probing questions for Dragon Ball Z and Sandland creator, Akira Toriyama. Let’s listen in…

The seventh question asked to Toriyama is the one I quoted under the “Possible Ending #3: Piccolo” section of my first post:

Q: Will you create more Dragon Ball Z stories?
A: I worked on the series for almost 10 years. When I reached about the third year, I was really pushing my limit, but the original editors of Shonen Jump in Japan made me continue the story. I have to thank them, because it was then that I really started to appreciate and enjoy creating the manga. I was able to continue for ten years, but ten years really was the limit

So it seems that when Sabat heard Toriyama’s comment about being made to continue the series during its third year, he probably assumed that by “the third year”, Toriyama meant the Freeza storyline. But as I pointed out before, the Freeza arc actually wrapped up in the 7th-8th year of DB’s run, so it’s pretty unlikely that it’s the period Toriyama was talking about. Of course, I doubt Sabat travels around with a complete timeline of DB’s serialization or whatever, so I can’t exactly fault him for not realizing that. In fact, the Freeza arc did end in about the third year of the “Z” portion of the manga, so maybe that’s what Sabat was thinking of, though Toriyama was definitely talking about the entire manga’s run (since he mentions working on it for “almost 10 years”).

Anyway, this rather neatly illustrates why third-hand reports like these aren’t really evidence. All people are prone to misunderstanding, mishearing, or misremembering their experiences, and these problem gets multiplied each time an anecdote is passed on to a new person. That’s why we need to stick to actual written/recorded records of what people say. “I heard person X say they heard person Y say Z” too easily generates rumors, even if the people involved are reliable people in and of themselves.

edit: The typos that ThunderPX pointed out are now fixed. Also, now with real intermission music!

I might add Kirbopher's story about Sabat and my point above to the main post. I should also probably re-listen to the Manga Review of Awesomeness for volume 28 so that I can provide some specific reasons why Jeff thought Goku's survival was "legit". May also eventually add real quotes from fans actually repeating these rumors, like how Snopes always features examples of the stuff it debunks, so that people don't just think I'm making some of these claims up.

[Cipher]

Very well done, and an incredibly interesting read. Even if it didn't contain a whole lot of new information for long-time fans, it's nice to see this all finally compiled and explained so well. Most of it should really be common sense, but the rumors just keep coming up again and again, so what can you do?

I doubt he would have gone “No, I must continue! For I have an artistic vision burning inside me, that I must let out! A vision of a bubblegum monster beating up on a little kid with really long hair and no eyebrows!”

Also, I actually laughed out loud when I read this sentence. I think it was more because of the context, but still.

[PuppetDoctor]

Really long read but it was very interesting. Excellent job Herms.

[Hellspawn28]

Great topic, and a very interesting read as well. Great job, Herms.

[NeoKING]

This is excellent information. Maybe the completed version should be a Tidbit on the main site?

I have something to say about the "series end" rumors though. I've noticed that in the most popular series that ran along side DB in Jump during the 80s(JJBA, Saint Seiya, HnK I think), it was common to see "impossible-to-continue" events where the most important characters would get hurt beyond belief, written out of the story, or die and it truly did seem like the end. But then, the authors would find ways to overcome this and continue the series somehow. It was almost like a trend that help boosted their sales and popularity, because readers would want to see how and why the series isn't over.(From what I gather in interviews from fans and manga-ka of that era, movies like Terminator and Rocky were super popular in Japan at the time, and those movies did the same thing. ESPECIALLY Hong Kong cinema flicks.) Maybe Toriyama was kind of the same in using these series-end feints?

Maybe not, but you never know.

[Piccolo Daimao]

Just noticed another typo: in the Uranai Baba section, in one instance you say "Uranai Baby" instead of "Uranai Baba".

[Hellspawn28]

I know this for the manga endings, but I have one question to ask? Was it true that Toei always wanted to end GT at the Bebi Saga or was it just another bad internet rumor?

[Gaffer Tape]

Not that I know much about GT, but I had always been under the impression that it was ultimately rushed to a conclusion due to lack of viewer interest. If that's true, then it seems unlikely that Toei would have been attempting to bring it to an end earlier than that. And at that point, wouldn't the series have been airing for less than a year? That seems a bit early to conclude a brand-new television series if they didn't have to. But that's just conjecture on my part.

[Castor Troy]

Just noticed another typo: in the Uranai Baba section, in one instance you say "Uranai Baby" instead of "Uranai Baba".

That's a scary fusion I don't want to think about.

[JulieYBM]

Episode work, Herms. This guide is going to come in handy so much for me. I really love how in-depth you were, tirelessly so.

Part of what I hate about One Piece is how meticulously planned out it is. So much so that Oda deliberatly with-holds information and I don't even know what the fuck is happening. What the hell is mantara?

I thought it was explained pretty clearly in the series. 'Mantra' an ability some white sea people have (to varying degrees), seemingly naturally born with it. It gets brought up again later on in the story (around chapter #500-plus, which would be two hundred or so chapters after the Skypiea arc). Without being too spoilerific, just think of it as an obligatory escalation of shônen super-powered technique battles.

[Hujio]

This is excellent information. Maybe the completed version should be a Tidbit on the main site?

Over my dead body! Besides, it's already being worked on as a feature for Kanzentai.

[rereboy]

Awesome guide!

[cRookie_Monster]

Wow, I haven't read it all..but what I have really impressed me. Great job!

[StarRot]

I’m still in the middle of reading this at the moment, it’s absolutely absorbing.
I admire you’re dedication to research, and patience to write this.

[Kienzan88gt]

This was a wonderful read Herms, my opinion about the several possible endings for DB have changed. Toriyama-sensei most likely wasn't forced and he just decided on certain events. It certainly gives me some reassurance now that those very odd rumors have no real evidence to back them up.

[Lum-Chan~]

Nice guide! I really enjoyed reading it.

I've heard the rumor that 19 and 20 were supposed to be the only androids during the Androids saga and well, I believe it. But the addition of 16, 17, 18 and Cell was probably for the better and proof that Executive changes aren't always bad. (even if it may not be true)

[nathantheguitarist]

Super brain fart right now, but didn't Legacy of Goku end with a clip of the planet exploding and with no explanation as to whether Goku lived or not? I remember it being the ending cutscene but can't remember if there was anything after the clip.

That's definitely not THE reason, but it might have been fuel to the fire, so to say. Or at least something to help some fans be like "Yeah, it could have ended there!"

[Chibi Mystic Gohan]

I think the biggest reason people believe it is so many Toriyama asspulls happen so close together, more than any other continuance.

People such as yourself, right? But haven't I thoroughly debunked all of the supposed "asspulls" you've mentioned, in older threads? Let's see, you've said:

a) Goku just "happened" to find one of Ginyu's space pods lying around. My response: The Ginyu pods were parked right next to Freeza's ship, remember? And Toriyama even remembered that little detail, because he actually drew them in the very chapter that Namek exploded!



Which brings me to your other point...

b) Goku was shown screaming right as Namek exploded, and being engulfed in the explosion, so how did he have time to grab a space pod? Answer: that was only in the anime. In the manga, it shows Goku yelling, and then it cuts away to the planet exploding in space. Therefore, Goku escaping happened inbetween those panels.

Did you have any other "asspulls"?

@Herms: Wonderful post! I haven't read it all yet, but this is simply amazing!

[DemonRin]

Wow! That's a LOT of typing... XD

I'm glad you wrote it though, it was a great read and hopefully it will educate someone.

I've noticed something about the series that I've been thinking of writing something about myself... this has inspired me, maybe I'll go ahead and write it now!

You also make me want to pull out my manga volumes and re-read the "Endings". Sucks that several of them are still boxed up from a move, but I did have Vols 16 and 17 out, so I can re-read the end of the Vegeta fight. I also have 32-34 on hand, which includes all of the Boo arc starting from Babidi jumping on Boo's back and flying away while Kaioshin saves Gohan through to the end when Son flies off with Oob... I think I'll dig through the boxes to look at the end of Freeza and Cell, which volumes do those arcs end at again?...