I don't care if they use the term 'ningen'...

[Fox666]

So, by your 'logic', Namekians and Humans can mate.

Do you even read the definition I posted? I even made it bold

"capable of interbreeding and producing fertile offspring"

That's why you can't separate europeans, africans and asians

[VegettoEX]

SuperForteX, you simply not liking things does not give you the right to start moderately-angry (and as Rach wonderfully characterized them, antagonistic) message board threads. Prior to your registration you agreed to a certain set of rules which specifically state that you will post politely -- these types of posts have already gotten you warnings, and simply will not be tolerated any further. Additional posts of this type will result in strikes being placed against your account by the moderation team.

If, however, you would like to have friendly and enlightening discussions with your fellow fans, by all means turn your posts around that way so that others are more encouraged to engage with you. Your questions about the manga and their page types, for example, was perfectly fine -- this, however, was not.

There are ways to ask the questions that you're asking without sounding like a whining brat, which is honestly how you're coming across.

I'll kindly ask everyone else to remember to be polite, as well.

[Godo]

No. You didn't. You combined two definitions together to twist things around.

hu·man (hymn)
n.
1. A member of the genus Homo and especially of the species H. sapiens.
2. A person: the extraordinary humans who explored Antarctica.
adj.
1. Of, relating to, or characteristic of humans: the course of human events; the human race.
2. Having or showing those positive aspects of nature and character regarded as distinguishing humans from other animals: an act of human kindness.
3. Subject to or indicative of the weaknesses, imperfections, and fragility associated with humans: a mistake that shows he's only human; human frailty.
4. Having the form of a human.
5. Made up of humans: formed a human bridge across the ice.

Be cool, stay in school.

[SuperForteX]

Yes, I read it. A group of organisims capable of interbreeding and producing offspring.
So by your definition, since Saiyans and Humans are able to do this, they're of one species.

However, Namekians and Capt. Ginyu also are refered to as ningen "humans". So they can produce interbreed with humans and create offspring I guess. Funny, since Namkeians don't even have sexual organs.

[Fox666]

Or course it doesn't need to be the properly biological definition, it can simply means the familiar knowledge like Godo posted

Namekians aren't humans, but it's not a crime to call them like that due to similarities

[SuperForteX]

Or course it doesn't need to be the properly biological definition, it can simply means the popular knowledge Godo posted

Namekians aren't humans, but it's not a crime to call them like that due to similarities

It's not a crime, since there's no laws against it. But it is simply incorrect. Like saying 2+2=5, just because the word 'ningen' is used to describe creatures that can talk in Dragon Ball, that doesn't make "everyone human." That's the point I'm trying to make.

[Eddie]

I'm going to say this as politely as possible. Calm down Super ForteX. You've been rather silly lately. Some of the things you say are absurd, rude, and seemingly attention seeking. Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to come across as a wannabe mod. Franklly, I have no desire to be one. It sounds friggin boring. This is just friendly advice from a fellow member that would be perfectly happy conversing with you on a wide variety of DB topics. Herms has done excellent work on the use of the term "ningen" in Dragon Ball. This term IS used in the series. You can't really deny that. I'm not even sure what there is to discuss there. I'm aware that you're under the impression that DaizenshuuEX is one big conspiracy (Yeah, you've successfully received attention for your bizarre ramblings elsewhere on the internet), but this really is a cool little community. You're antagonistic remarks, such as suggesting that one of the most easygoing and helpful people I've come across on the net is trolling you with made up information, is not a help. Take it easy, remember that the DaizenshuuEX conspiracy isn't directly related to you (bigger fish to fry, my friend), and partake in the fun discussions and debates without making remarks that are more "trollishly stupid" than the ones you're complaining about.

[Fox666]

It's like looking at a wolf and saying "cute dog", it's a forgetful terminology mistake

Still, saiyans are human. Humans with another skin color or with tails, still human.

[VegettoEX]

It's not a crime, since there's no laws against it. But it is simply incorrect. Like saying 2+2=5, just because the word 'ningen' is used to describe creatures that can talk in Dragon Ball, that doesn't make "everyone human." That's the point I'm trying to make.

Part of the point that you're missing (and has been stated to you) is that the Dragon World isn't our world.

If, in the Dragon World, the equivalent of the term "human" is what's used to describe the generally-bipedal-and-conversational type of being... well, that's what's up in that world. It's a world with an anthropomorphic dog for a king -- it's not our world, so it doesn't have to conform to everything that holds true in our daily vernacular.

Like was also stated, the way that "jinzoningen" is used for certain types of characters is not the way that it's traditionally used in other Japanese literature (or movies, etc.), but that's how it's used in the Dragon World. It just is. State of being.

[TripleRach]

You're saying it's a literal translation for the word human?

Wikipedia equates Human and Ningen if you look at the language lists in the sidebar, as does pretty much any dictionary. It's generally used the same way in Japanese that we use the word "human" in English. But it could mean "person" or "humanoid" depending on the context, because words in any language often have multiple meanings and uses, and different interpretations by different translators aren't necessarily wrong.

You could say the same thing about "person/people," because it's not like anyone uses those words to refer to dogs or giraffes or anything. We generally only use it to refer to Homo sapiens, but it's not like the real world has ever encountered another species so similar to humans.

[Bussani]

According to Herm's thread, it's specifically 'human'. Not 'people' or 'humanoids' like Kaboom and Rachel are trying to say. So which is correct?

Well, it isn't literally "humanoid"--Rachel's just saying that that's the way Dragon Ball seems to use it, and I agree. Literally it is human. I think it can also be used as "person", but in a way that's more like saying "that human over there," which sounds weird in English. I'm sure Herms will come along and explain it.

For a non Dragon Ball example, there's 3x3 Eyes. In this story, Pai wants to become a ningen (human), because she's something else--a Sanjiyan. She looks perfectly human, though. So maybe it is a "mincing of terms" or whatever, but it's one that's present right there in the original version. So...blame Toriyama, I guess?

just because the word 'ningen' is used to describe creatures that can talk in Dragon Ball, that doesn't make "everyone human."

It does by the Dragon Ball universe's definition of the word, apparently. Unless you want to translate ningen to something else. I mean, you could translate it to "person" instead. But what does person mean?

per·son/ˈpərsən/Noun
1. A human being regarded as an individual.

Oh.

[Fox666]

I guess you can't be too strict with the meaning of "human"?

And even if you are, the more precise definitions is the biology, whom puts saiyans perfectly as homo sapiens (humans), and socially a race.

[SuperForteX]

But it's not something fans of Dragon Ball have discussed at any length in the past. This is something new to this "new generation" of translations and delving more deeply into Dragon Ball universe... yet the Japanese fans never pointed it out while they read it, did they? Historically I never heard a "wait, what" in regards to Saiyans and the like being considered humans.

I am fully confident this is something we're translating incorrectly, misinterpreting, or simply a case of it being some subtle cultural difference or something.

It can't be that all of the people in Dragon Ball are called humans. I mean, it just can't be, can it? Why hasn't any official translation in decades ever picked that up?

It's being too... literal... or something. Has to be.

[Rocketman]

It's like looking at a wolf and saying "cute dog", it's a forgetful terminology mistake

That's not a mistake, as wolves are dogs. They're the same species, canis lupus.

[Fox666]

I am fully confident this is something we're translating incorrectly, misinterpreting, or simply a case of it being some subtle cultural difference or something.

Because...

...you don't like it?

[Herms]

I don't care if they use the term "Chikyuu". That place ain't Earth! It's ruled by a dog! Don't you realize how incredibly trollish you sound, calling it "Earth"? Deep down you must realize it isn't really Earth. Surely a mistranslation or misunderstanding is at the root of this. It must be cultural differences. Because fantasy works never ever ever ever ever ever use words in a way that is strange by everyday conventions.

OK, (somewhat more) seriously, how are Saiyans not humans? They're human in all aspects besides their tails. Sure they have crazy powers that real humans don't, but then so does Kuririn for that matter. Namekians or guys like Ginyu are a little more out there, but if the likes of Chaozu can be accepted universally as "human" without question, I don't see what they're lacking. And yeah they're from another planet, but DB Earth is completely different from real world Earth: Bulma, Yamcha, and co. aren't from the same planet we are, so they're all pretty much aliens by that count. Why does somebody have to be from a planet that happens to be named "Earth" to count as human?

I suppose my main interest in the issue is how perfectly logical it is for the aliens to call themselves "humans". Once you've established that these alien races who have never been to or often even heard of Earth all speak Japanese (or English or whatever language the show is translated into), infinitely absurd as that may be, it's only natural that they'd all refer to themselves as "humans". After all, Japanese (like English or I'd assume all other human languages) is constructed around the assumption that "human=normal". Why would these aliens refer to themselves in terms that other themselves? How would they even know that only the people on Earth count as "humans"? Why would they even accept that distinction?

But even then, it's not like I jump down peoples' throats every time I see someone talk about Kuririn and co. as "humans" in contrast to the Saiyans or Namekians. It's just something I point out because it's, well, there.

[SuperForteX]

I am fully confident this is something we're translating incorrectly, misinterpreting, or simply a case of it being some subtle cultural difference or something.

Because...

...you don't like it?

That and dozens of offical translations omitting it for decades...

[Fox666]

I recommend to you not take the official english translation very serious... Herms has already proved to be far beyond these sources

It's like looking at a wolf and saying "cute dog", it's a forgetful terminology mistake

That's not a mistake, as wolves are dogs. They're the same species, canis lupus.

Do you want to play Skitt’s Law game? Phew...

[Bussani]

Because fantasy works never ever ever ever ever ever use words in a way that is strange by everyday conventions.

This whole topic reminded me of this time someone was insisting that Nintendo was wrong to use the word "evolution" in Pokemon, because what Pokemon do is closer to a metamorphosis than what the word evolution is commonly used to mean.

[TripleRach]

But it's not something fans of Dragon Ball have discussed at any length in the past. This is something new to this "new generation" of translations and delving more deeply into Dragon Ball universe... yet the Japanese fans never pointed it out while they read it, did they? Historically I never heard a "wait, what" in regards to Saiyans and the like being considered humans.

There are a lot of things that fell under the radar over the years, at least in the English fandom. A lot of old fan translations had giant flaws, as did most of the official translations. People with good Japanese skills back in the day seemed to have other priorities (like getting FUNimation to release subtitled DVDs).

For instance, back around 2002-2003, people thought I was crazy for insinuating that Vegeta was already SSJ2 before being possessed by Babidi. I got the impression from my (then recently acquired) Japanese manga. Old fan translations of the manga and anime were awful and half-assed (and often went through multiple languages between Japanese and English), Viz hadn't gotten that far in the story yet, and FUNimation's subbed DVDs were still too expensive for most people. But now that Viz has finished the series and DVDs are cheap, people have more awareness of the original dialogue, and now make the same arguments I used to back in the day.

But I personally never thought much of the way the series uses ningen. I think I used words like "humanoid" or "person" or "mortal" (when coming from Kibito) in my old manga summaries. Herms is probably the first person that was compelled to point it out. With such a long series with a history of flawed translations, there are probably even more things like this no one thought to point out yet.