Who is worse? Goku (Boo Saga) or Vegeta (Cell Saga)?

[Blade]

Goku's decision making in the Buu saga represent a set of good intentions that are applied in a situation so serious that the immediate consequences for the Earth are dire. Goku's decision to not kill Majin Buu during his 24 hours on Earth results in the destruction of Humanity and eventually Earth and moreover his intent to pass on the baton to other people to take care of the Earth's safety fails in both the short and long term.

I see Vegeta as always being more-or-less true to character apart from in GT where he seems to swing from one extreme to another depending on if the plot the calls for it. I guess I always see Vegeta's behavior in the Buu saga as being somewhat of a mid-life crisis. He's settled on Earth and hates himself for it - he longs for the freedom and abandon of his youth where he was entirely self-serving and fueled only by his desire for power. His rivalry with Goku has gone unsatisfied for years whilst Goku has been in the afterlife, so seeing the opportunity to challenge him during Goku's 24 hours is something that drives him over the edge. I don't think any of this is out of character - it shows character development and underpins that Dragonball Z isn't just filled with cardboard cut-out characters that retain the same personality traits throughout the entire of their lives. I mean - who here is the same person that they were 10 years ago?

[coola]

Goku, definately, he was such a jerk in Boo Saga, i know its going to be controversial, but he deserved to stay death for what he did.

[ABED]

"would it kill Goku to give some indication he gives a shit about anyone but himself?"

He's always cared for other people. I don't see where this comes from.

"until he hears of Goku's return, at which point he's willing to put aside literally all the development he's had over the course of several years (both in-universe and out) in order to have a good match. When he realizes he's screwed up in doing so, yeah, I'm okay with that. But THEN he does it AGAIN, refusing to fuse with Goku again despite knowing that it would doom the entire universe to total extinction. Then he watches Goku fight at full power, admits he's the greatest warrior (he literally admits defeat), and then goes straight back to "I will defeat you".

He thought Goku was dead for good, and when he learns Goku is back, as far as we know, all he was ever going to do was fight Goku. The Buu problem came out of left field. Vegeta changed some, but not a whole lot. Plus, how many addicts say they will change only to fall back into their terrible habits later. Evil people are allowed to be inconsistent. Vegeta is insecure, the fact that he was willing to die for his family doesn't get rid of that fact. The fact that he's arrogant about his Saiyan heritage (I can't really call it pride) never goes away is consistent with who he is. Plus, he eventually does fuse with Goku even after he finds out it will be permanent.

When does he go straight back to "I will defeat you"? GT?

As far as I'm concerned the question is moot, it is and always will be Vegeta who is worse. Goku's logic may be questionable, but I think his heart is typically in the right place. Vegeta murdered the people in the stadium, and let himself be taken over by Babidi

[DBZAOTA482]

"would it kill Goku to give some indication he gives a shit about anyone but himself?"

He's always cared for other people. I don't see where this comes from.

The thing is, so many purist take the differences between the manga/sub from the FUNi Z dub for granted that it's real deficiency go unacknowledged - in that it dumbed the show down to the point where it's like watching something radically different.

The original Goku was always benevolent but he was portrayed as more of a normal guy with a passion for martial arts but in the dub, he's portrayed as a goofy hero who's limitlessly benevolent.

[hleV]

Vegeta's always been worse. Goku's never had any bad intentions (expect when raged, but he couldn't help it - not exactly his fault), while Vegeta's caused much suffering to many. When Vegeta indeed had the right to choose, he chose to go mad and make Goku fight him, even if it meant killing innocent people.

[DoomieDoomie911]

I'd have to say Cell arc Vegeta. I mean, he let Cell reach perfect form. How could Goku be any worse than that?

[DBZGTKOSDH]

"would it kill Goku to give some indication he gives a shit about anyone but himself?"

He's always cared for other people. I don't see where this comes from.

The thing is, so many purist take the differences between the manga/sub from the FUNi Z dub for granted that it's real deficiency go unacknowledged - in that it dumbed the show down to the point where it's like watching something radically different.

The original Goku was always benevolent but he was portrayed as more of a normal guy with a passion for martial arts but in the dub, he's portrayed as a goofy hero who's limitlessly benevolent.

I wouldn't say that he doesn't give a shit about the others. He does fight to protect his family & friends as well, it's not like he doesn't care, he just wants to do things his way... which is through fighting.

[DBZAOTA482]

I'd have to say Cell arc Vegeta. I mean, he let Cell reach perfect form. How could Goku be any worse than that?

Goku has some competitively heinous stuff, like when he made Gohan watch as his girlfriend gets beaten to death by Spopovich...because it'd get him disqualified.

[ABED]

I'd have to say Cell arc Vegeta. I mean, he let Cell reach perfect form. How could Goku be any worse than that?

Goku has some competitively heinous stuff, like when he made Gohan watch as his girlfriend gets beaten to death by Spopovich...because it'd get him disqualified.

Is that what you took away from that? He knew she wouldn't die. If he thought that's what would've happened, he would've stepped in. Plus he was sure he could get senzu.

[DBZAOTA482]

I'd have to say Cell arc Vegeta. I mean, he let Cell reach perfect form. How could Goku be any worse than that?

Goku has some competitively heinous stuff, like when he made Gohan watch as his girlfriend gets beaten to death by Spopovich...because it'd get him disqualified.

Is that what you took away from that? He knew she wouldn't die. If he thought that's what would've happened, he would've stepped in. Plus he was sure he could get senzu.

How can Goku predict that? Spopovich was going to crush Videl's head like a walnut, and no one was going to help her until Yamu stopped him.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

How can Goku predict that? Spopovich was going to crush Videl's head like a walnut, and no one was going to help her until Yamu stopped him.

He didn't imagine that Spopovich would try to kill Videl during the tournament.

[DBZAOTA482]

How can Goku predict that? Spopovich was going to crush Videl's head like a walnut, and no one was going to help her until Yamu stopped him.

He didn't imagine that Spopovich would try to kill Videl during the tournament.

Still an uncharacteristically psychotic thing for Goku to do. What happened there wasn't marital arts, it was brutality.

[Gaffer Tape]

I admit I've never really understood that. It's not terribly different from any other tournament match except for the fact that the injuries are played straight/realistic rather than cartoony/superhuman.

[Victorious]

At least Vegeta had some relevancy in the Cell arc. He was the strongest of the Z Senshi in the Android arc, and the strongest guy in the world after his first RoSaT trip.


In the Buu saga [which basically continued on from the 2nd half of the Cell arc] he was just totally irrelevant other than being part of Vegetto.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Still an uncharacteristically psychotic thing for Goku to do. What happened there wasn't marital arts, it was brutality.

So? It was her match. She chose to participate, so why should he help her? It's not like Videl is an innocent weak little girl, she is one of the top normal fighters of Earth. Not to mention that if he or Gohan had stepped in, they would get disqualified. And since they could fix whatever damage she had taken with senzu, it wasn't worth it.

[DBZAOTA482]

Still an uncharacteristically psychotic thing for Goku to do. What happened there wasn't marital arts, it was brutality.

So? It was her match. She chose to participate, so why should he help her? It's not like Videl is an innocent weak little girl, she is one of the top normal fighters of Earth. Not to mention that if he or Gohan had stepped in, they would get disqualified. And since they could fix whatever damage she had taken with senzu, it wasn't worth it.

I know she's not weak but Majin Spopovich was at a whole another level, and she was clearly getting beaten to the itch of her life. Honor was already lost in that match. Is getting disqualified really worth risking the life of a mostly-innocent teenage girl? That "we can just fix everything supernaturally so why should we give a shit now?" attitude the Z-Senshi just suddenly picked up really pissed me off in the Majin Boo Saga. And a senzu bean isn't going to fix her squashed head.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Is getting disqualified really worth risking the life of a mostly-innocent teenage girl? That "we can just fix everything supernaturally so why should we give a shit now?" attitude the Z-Senshi just suddenly picked up really pissed me off in the Majin Boo Saga.

She is a fighter. She knows what pain is, and she can endure it. Besides, she didn't even asked for help, nor was she crying. She bravely did her best, and even when she was getting her ass kicked, she was trying to hit him. Not to mention that in the manga, it wasn't that much of a torturing like in the anime (didn't he even prevent Videl from going out of bounds?), she was just getting her ass kicked, horribly.

And a senzu bean isn't going to fix her squashed head.

Like I said, he most likely didn't imagine that he would kill Videl, and the stepping on her head was very brief in the manga. But even if she was killed, they still had the Dragon Balls.

[ABED]

Still an uncharacteristically psychotic thing for Goku to do. What happened there wasn't marital arts, it was brutality.

So? It was her match. She chose to participate, so why should he help her? It's not like Videl is an innocent weak little girl, she is one of the top normal fighters of Earth. Not to mention that if he or Gohan had stepped in, they would get disqualified. And since they could fix whatever damage she had taken with senzu, it wasn't worth it.

I know she's not weak but Majin Spopovich was at a whole another level, and she was clearly getting beaten to the itch of her life. Honor was already lost in that match. Is getting disqualified really worth risking the life of a mostly-innocent teenage girl? That "we can just fix everything supernaturally so why should we give a shit now?" attitude the Z-Senshi just suddenly picked up really pissed me off in the Majin Boo Saga. And a senzu bean isn't going to fix her squashed head.

Wouldn't you pick that up after a while? If things were constantly put back together via magic, it would be hard to get that pissed about things. I would find it weird that they didn't wind up that way. It's sort of like how Scully was always a skeptic despite seeing what she saw.

Do you honestly think Toriyama would write Goku as being heartless unless he knew he wasn't going to kill Videl? This isn't a failing (if it is at all) of Goku's it's a failing of Toriyama's.

[DBZAOTA482]

Is getting disqualified really worth risking the life of a mostly-innocent teenage girl? That "we can just fix everything supernaturally so why should we give a shit now?" attitude the Z-Senshi just suddenly picked up really pissed me off in the Majin Boo Saga.

She is a fighter. She knows what pain is, and she can endure it. Besides, she didn't even asked for help, nor was she crying. She bravely did her best, and even when she was getting her ass kicked, she was trying to hit him. Not to mention that in the manga, it wasn't that much of a torturing like in the anime (didn't he even prevent Videl from going out of bounds?), she was just getting her ass kicked, horribly.

The point of the beating is that Videl was in over her head as Spopovich clearly wanted more than just victory, and there may not have been as torturing in the manga but there's still enough to cause for alarm.

And a senzu bean isn't going to fix her squashed head.

Like I said, he most likely didn't imagine that he would kill Videl, and the stepping on her head was very brief in the manga. But even if she was killed, they still had the Dragon Balls.

Given that Spopovich launched a force of ki at her from quite a vertical range, gave her a fully-charged knee to the face, and his bloodthirsty look should be plenty of indication that he wants to kill her. Assuming nothing is wrong is just psychotic.

Wouldn't you pick that up after a while? If things were constantly put back together via magic, it would be hard to get that pissed about things. I would find it weird that they didn't wind up that way. It's sort of like how Scully was always a skeptic despite seeing what she saw.

The thing is Boo is a threat at the highest order so it's a matter of time before he blows up every planet thus no dragonballs. Also, it makes them look like assholes.

[ABED]

Now you are switching between the fight with Spopovitch and Buu. They did show concern when fighting Buu. Goku's not the most intelligent character so pointing out the flaw in his logic about having the living protect their world doesn't mean he was horrible. Goku knew the power of fusion. He just didn't count on Buu transforming, and how would he. He was in fact right about Goten and Trunks being able to defeat Buu, just not the one they faced.

I'll give you that Goku was reckless in fighting Vegeta. I still don't buy what Toriyama gave as his reasons. Goku didn't turn SS3, but remember that Toriyama writes by the seat of his pants. Did he plan on SS3? After Goku finishes fighting Buu, he tells Kuririn that he doesn't think he could win, but then seems to change his mind when he returns. Once again, I don't blame Goku, I blame Toriyama for not planning in advance.