Toriyama and Gogeta?

[The Tori-bot]

I do believe that is his only image of Gogeta. Though, while he probably wouldn't have shared the same design, he was going to use the Metamorean fusion for Goku and Vegeta himself in the latter half of the Buu Arc, but since Movie 12 had come out and had them use the technique before he got around to it, he decided to create Potara and introduce us to Vegetto.

Wow, really? I was watching Movie 12 today and was going to start a thread asking why the Potara even existed. Would have prevented the "de-merge due to bad gas" problem at any rate.

[Hellspawn28]

The Potara was nothing more then a plot device to help Goku to defeated Buu. Goku can't do the fusion dance with Gohan since his power is much greater then his, Goku would also need away to save Goten, Trunks and Piccolo inside.

[Kamiccolo9]

The Potara was nothing more then a plot device to help Goku to defeated Buu. Goku can't do the fusion dance with Gohan since his power is much greater then his, Goku would also need away to save Goten, Trunks and Piccolo inside.

Goku was going to do the Fusion Dance with Gohan, remember? Gohan would probably just power down enough to be even with Goku. If Future Trunks could go from a few million to 5, then Gohan could most likely lower himself to be even with Goku. Trunks had to lower his power to fuse with Goten too, remember?

[TheDevilsCorpse]

Goku was going to do the Fusion Dance with Gohan, remember? Gohan would probably just power down enough to be even with Goku. If Future Trunks could go from a few million to 5, then Gohan could most likely lower himself to be even with Goku. Trunks had to lower his power to fuse with Goten too, remember?

That's not how it works when the gaps are too big. Remember, Goku said he couldn't try it in the afterlife because no one there was on par with him. That shouldn't be an issue if Goku could just drastically lower himself down to match the power of the other person. So you have to already be close in power, just like size, before the altering your battle power trick will work.

[Kamiccolo9]

Goku was going to do the Fusion Dance with Gohan, remember? Gohan would probably just power down enough to be even with Goku. If Future Trunks could go from a few million to 5, then Gohan could most likely lower himself to be even with Goku. Trunks had to lower his power to fuse with Goten too, remember?

That's not how it works when the gaps are too big. Remember, Goku said he couldn't try it in the afterlife because no one there was on par with him. That shouldn't be an issue if Goku could just drastically lower himself down to match the power of the other person. So you have to already be close in power, just like size, before the altering your battle power trick will work.

Then it seems we may have a plothole then. Goku was ready to go and fuse with Gohan before he found out about the Potara. So unless Gohan's powerup doesn't apply to the fusion restrictions, there's no reason why Goku would think that fusion would work.

[hleV]

Goku didn't say that he couldn't fuse with anyone in the afterlife, but rather that he never tested it as there was nobody on par with him. I expect he'd want someone really powerful to fuse with, because otherwise there's not much of a point, as he's already witnessed someone else fushin and knows the result. In other words, the guys in the afterlife may've been so weak that Goku would've needed to power down so much that the fusion would've ended up weaker than Goku's max.

[rereboy]

Its makes no sense for him to at least not try it. I mean, he learns this amazing technique which, besides being awesome, is also difficult to imagine what its like to be fused with someone. And he decides not to even try it once? Just to see if he has mastered the technique at least? Even if there's no one ideal for him to fuse, it would make perfect sense for him to at least try it once.

[hleV]

Again, he had witnessed Fusion and knows how it works. If fusing with someone himself meant that the fusion would be weaker than him, then there's hardly much of a point for Goku to do it. Saying that it doesn't make sense for Goku to not try Fusion, even if he knows it's gonna be weak, is a big assumption. A more curious person, who cared less about just becoming stronger, may've indeed fused to experience it for himself.

[rereboy]

Again, he had witnessed Fusion and knows how it works. If fusing with someone himself meant that the fusion would be weaker than him, then there's hardly much of a point for Goku to do it.

Yes, there is... To see if he has mastered it and to see what its like. You do realize that without actually doing it Goku has basically just learned the theory of what he has to do, right?

That's like seeing Roshi do the Kamehameha and maybe even listening to him tell Goku how its done and Goku not trying it afterwards.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Then it seems we may have a plothole then. Goku was ready to go and fuse with Gohan before he found out about the Potara. So unless Gohan's powerup doesn't apply to the fusion restrictions, there's no reason why Goku would think that fusion would work.

If we go by what M13 & BoG show, which the manga also hints, Gohan can power-down from his Ultimate state to his base state, and Goku & Gohan were close in power in their base forms.

[hleV]

Again, he had witnessed Fusion and knows how it works. If fusing with someone himself meant that the fusion would be weaker than him, then there's hardly much of a point for Goku to do it.

Yes, there is... To see if he has mastered it and to see what its like. You do realize that without actually doing it Goku has basically just learned the theory of what he has to do, right?

We're talking about a dead Goku who did not intend to be revived and to ever actually put the technique to use. It wouldn't help him train/get stronger neither. The Kamehameha example doesn't work here at all.

[Herms]

Then it seems we may have a plothole then. Goku was ready to go and fuse with Gohan before he found out about the Potara. So unless Gohan's powerup doesn't apply to the fusion restrictions, there's no reason why Goku would think that fusion would work.

Maybe the gap between Ultimate Gohan and Goku is still smaller than the gap between Goku and whoever else was hanging out in the afterlife. I mean, in the anime we've got Paikuhan, but for all we know the manga afterlife might not contain any warriors stronger than (say) Ginyu, right?

[rereboy]

We're talking about a dead Goku who did not intend to be revived and to ever actually put the technique to use. It wouldn't help him train/get stronger neither. The Kamehameha example doesn't work here at all.

Yeah, it does work, because its in Goku's personality to just try it, as he did when he first saw the Kamehameha. You think that when Goku tried the Kamehameha on that car after seeing Roshi do it he was thinking "this will advantageous in the future"? No, he was simply excited and wanted to try it to see if he could do it. You believe that Goku changed that much from that point?

Not to mention that, like you said yourself, he's dead! Trying a brand new and awesome technique is probably the greatest entertainment he can get in the afterlife! And he wouldn't try it?! It doesn't make any sense at all! Its completely out of character. Even any other fighter besides Goku would probably try it just to see if he could and for the fun of it.

[B]

In a weird way, I kind of hate Gogeta... he's not a character and he shows up just in time to save the day. The rest of Movie 12 is so good, I literally forget how by-the-numbers and typical the ending is; it's like I always experience it for the first time. I somehow mentally block out it's unoriginality.

Thinking about it, the dichotomy between Vegetto and Gogeta is pretty interesting. Based on the short glimpse we get of him, Gogeta is this larger-than-life heroic figure, while Vegetto's a bit of a smart ass. You can completely tell which is a Toei creation and which is the type of guy Toriyama'd come up with.

[Duo]

In a weird way, I kind of hate Gogeta... he's not a character and he shows up just in time to save the day. The rest of Movie 12 is so good, I literally forget how by-the-numbers and typical the ending is; it's like I always experience it for the first time. I somehow mentally block out it's unoriginality.

Thinking about it, the dichotomy between Vegetto and Gogeta is pretty interesting. Based on the short glimpse we get of him, Gogeta is this larger-than-life heroic figure, while Vegetto's a bit of a smart ass. You can completely tell which is a Toei creation and which is the type of guy Toriyama'd come up with.

Besides the hatred for Gogeta part, that's a depressing true thing to say. However, I think it's more satisfying to see a "larger than life" figure than somebody who's realistically representing the characters going into him (although many folks overlook the fact his attitude was dictated by his wanting to be absorbed).

[hleV]

We're talking about a dead Goku who did not intend to be revived and to ever actually put the technique to use. It wouldn't help him train/get stronger neither. The Kamehameha example doesn't work here at all.

Yeah, it does work, because its in Goku's personality to just try it, as he did when he first saw the Kamehameha. You think that when Goku tried the Kamehameha on that car after seeing Roshi do it he was thinking "this will advantageous in the future"? No, he was simply excited and wanted to try it to see if he could do it. You believe that Goku changed that much from that point?

Not to mention that, like you said yourself, he's dead! Trying a brand new and awesome technique is probably the greatest entertainment he can get in the afterlife! And he wouldn't try it?! It doesn't make any sense at all! Its completely out of character. Even any other fighter besides Goku would probably try it just to see if he could and for the fun of it.

So if someone introduced a technique which lowers one's power, Goku would definitely try it?

Again,

• Goku's dead, strongest in the afterlife and does not plan to ever put Fusion to use. That's absolutely different from the Kamehameha which would definitely have been useful in his future.
• He's seen the effect of Fusion from the Metamorians and knows how it works. The only real reason Goku would test it himself would be to see how strong he could become by fusing, and he couldn't do that in the afterlife.

I'm not saying that I'm definitely right or you're definitely wrong, I'm saying that your reasons for claiming that this and that doesn't make sense are invalid.

[rereboy]

So if someone introduced a technique which lowers one's power, Goku would definitely try it?

I said that Goku would try any technique he thought was awesome. Fusion is an awesome technique. Not having an ideal partner wouldn't stop him because he would still want to see if he has mastered it and see what its like. Especially since he's in the afterlife forever with nothing better to do.

[*]Goku's dead, strongest in the afterlife and does not plan to ever put Fusion to use. That's absolutely different from the Kamehameha which would definitely have been useful in his future.

So, Goku's dead, has nothing special to do, no adversaries to fight with because no one is quite to his level, and the biggest entertainment he has is his training... And he wouldn't try an awesome technique that someone showed him, even if its just to see if he can do it.

Yeah, doesn't seem to make sense.

[*]He's seen the effect of Fusion from the Metamorians and knows how it works. The only real reason Goku would test it himself would be to see how strong he could become by fusing, and he couldn't do that in the afterlife.[/list]

Oh, come on... Its cool that you have another opinion and all, but to claim that the only real reason for Goku to test it is too see how strong he could become after I've already pointed out that Goku would want to see what its like to be fused and would want to see if he has mastered it, which are two other real reasons perfectly consistent with his personality to try the technique, is, to say the least, very inflexible of you.

[hleV]

So if someone introduced a technique which lowers one's power, Goku would definitely try it?

I said that Goku would try any technique he thought was awesome. Fusion is an awesome technique.

Fusion is awesome because it grants a great boost in power. Goku couldn't test its awesomeness. Claiming that Goku considers Fusion awesome for other reasons (for which he would've attempted to fuse) would, again, be a baseless assumption.

[Analytical Delusion]

Played around, and put together an svg of the sketch in case anybody's interested:

http://www6.zippyshare.com/v/90574221/file.html

[rereboy]

Fusion is awesome because it grants a great boost in power. Goku couldn't test its awesomeness. Claiming that Goku considers Fusion awesome for other reasons (for which he would've attempted to fuse) would, again, be a baseless assumption.

Uh-uh... Its a baseless assumption to assume that Goku would want to test out a technique that he has found interesting enough and awesome enough to actually learn, when he is dead, has no adversaries left, and all he does is train. Ok, buddy, whatever you say.