What If Toriyama Tried To Make DBZ Deep?

doomydoomydoom · Post by **doomydoomydoom** » Tue Feb 25, 2014 3:30 am

Never could have happened, not in any alternate universe nor this one. If it had been tried, the world would have encountered a runtime error and crashed.

Fizzer · Post by **Fizzer** » Tue Feb 25, 2014 5:10 am

If you deviate away from what Dragon Ball is too much it stops being Dragon Ball, and that's a dangerous thing. It still has to be goofy, but I think Toriyama could have added a little complexity to end up with a better story. I'm thinking of two things in particular:

1: Better resolutions to plots. Most stories end with the villain being defeated in combat by some big attack, and that is a little unsatisfying. It would be better if the characters had to come up with a "plan" specific to the villain and situation, like in the Garlic Jr arc, which had the thread of purifying the people of earth in addition to defeating the baddie, who was defeated by having his power source destroyed so he was sucked into the Dead Zone, not just by being overpowered. I know that that wasn't Toriyama, but I think he's capable of it, and more stuff like that would have been great. For the Buu arc, it could have been something like that Buu gained his regenerative powers from someone he absorbed (a god? Daikaioshin?) and simply cannot be killed, then Vegetto removing all of his absorbees doubles as a battle strategy which makes Buu beatable, and not just saving his family.

2: More character complexity. I'm not talking about giving Gohan Schizzophrenia or anything dark like that, I just think we should see a little bit more of what goes on in their lives during peace-time to flesh out their characters. Bulma and Yamcha's woven into the adventure? Yes! That's good! Now do a bit more of that. I've been watching Breaking Bad, which is nothing like Dragon Ball of course, but one thing that makes it good is that all of the characters have their own worries and concerns outside of the main plot, they all have different senses of humour and whatnot that are more apparent than in Dragon Ball. This wouldn't require very much extra screen-time at all, I believe with just a little bit of this stuff, magic can be worked. By far the biggest change would be showing things like weddings, which are big events in character's lives and shouldn't be missed. I'm pretty sure Kuririn's wedding to #18 is atleast as much of an important moment in his life to any of his battles, so why do we not see it?

helsinkirocks · Post by **helsinkirocks** » Tue Feb 25, 2014 5:27 am

It would be called "One Piece" and it would be better than DBZ.

DBZAOTA482 · Post by **DBZAOTA482** » Tue Feb 25, 2014 5:55 am

I don't know if I'd enjoy it as much but it's an interesting idea to get what if the series tried to be "deep":

Goku's numerous inconsiderate actions would have his friends and families eventually resent him (not to mention he'll eventually become a sociopath), Gohan would have numerous psychological and daddy issues, Bulma would be jailed for life (the death penalty even) since she was a horrible person but break out and lives life as a escape convict, Muten Roshi's frequent molesting of women (some that he doesn't even know) would have him arrested for sexual harassment and halt the process of his students' training, Piccolo would try to be a father for Gohan and be Chi-Chi's boyfriend/husband, Yamcha would be a depressed mope and also try to be Chi-Chi's boyfriend/husband, Chi-Chi would be more of a complex tormented character who is overwhelmed by the burden of taking up so much responsibility instead of being portrayed as just a wet blanket, and Tenshinhan and Chaozu would be border-platonic lovers.

B · Post by B » Tue Feb 25, 2014 6:02 am

helsinkirocks wrote:It would be called "One Piece" and it would be better than DBZ.

One Piece isn't "deep." The characters all yell what they're sad, happy, or angry about. All of its charm is completely surface level. I'm not knocking that, necessarily, but let's not pretend it's more than that.

Robot Devil: "You can't just have your characters announce how they feel! That makes me feel angry!"

thatdbzguy · Post by **thatdbzguy** » Tue Feb 25, 2014 6:55 am

B wrote:
helsinkirocks wrote:It would be called "One Piece" and it would be better than DBZ.
One Piece isn't "deep." The characters all yell what they're sad, happy, or angry about. All of its charm is completely surface level. I'm not knocking that, necessarily, but let's not pretend it's more than that.

Robot Devil: "You can't just have your characters announce how they feel! That makes me feel angry!"

One Piece may not be "deep" compared to some other anime aimed at a more mature audience, but for a shonen, it's pretty complex, and it's definitely much better written than Dragon Ball.

ChiChiFan · Post by **ChiChiFan** » Tue Feb 25, 2014 6:56 am

DBZ could make some changes but I don't want the show being too deep or too serious. A lot of people like DBZ because the story is simple yet enjoyable to watch. There are shows that are deep yet I can't get into or find boring.

Wibbs · Post by **Wibbs** » Tue Feb 25, 2014 9:13 am

thatdbzguy wrote:
B wrote:
helsinkirocks wrote:It would be called "One Piece" and it would be better than DBZ.
One Piece isn't "deep." The characters all yell what they're sad, happy, or angry about. All of its charm is completely surface level. I'm not knocking that, necessarily, but let's not pretend it's more than that.

Robot Devil: "You can't just have your characters announce how they feel! That makes me feel angry!"
One Piece may not be "deep" compared to some other anime aimed at a more mature audience, but for a shonen, it's pretty complex, and it's definitely much better written than Dragon Ball.

Your saying that a manga that starts out with a kid stabbing himself in the face is complex... Sure

.

Define what you mean by better written. As far as I can tell One Piece treats the reader like a dumb kid. Stating everything outright and not allowing the reader to think about it whatsoever.

ABED · Post by **ABED** » Tue Feb 25, 2014 9:15 am

Not necessarily deeper and certainly not darker. It could be better written at times, but I enjoy it for its lightheartedness. I don't like how some infer "deep" and "dark" to mean the same thing. I don't want DBZ to be friggin Watchmen, which I don't think is nearly as good as it's made out to be, but mainly because it's an overly depressing book that's meant to undercut the idea of heroism. Lighthearted and well written aren't mutually exclusive. The Piccolo Daimao and Freeza arcs are about as dark as I think DB should go.

A lot of shows like The Wire and Breaking Bad are good, but not every damn show needs to be those. Sometimes I want white hats vs. black hats.

thatdbzguy · Post by **thatdbzguy** » Tue Feb 25, 2014 9:19 am

Wibbs wrote: Your saying that a manga that starts out with a kid stabbing himself in the face is complex... Sure .

Define what you mean by better written. As far as I can tell One Piece treats the reader like a dumb kid. Stating everything outright and not allowing the reader to think about it whatsoever.

One Piece has far less inconsistencies, relies far less on asspulls, and makes good use out of all of it's characters.

ABED · Post by **ABED** » Tue Feb 25, 2014 9:20 am

thatdbzguy wrote:
Wibbs wrote: Your saying that a manga that starts out with a kid stabbing himself in the face is complex... Sure .

Define what you mean by better written. As far as I can tell One Piece treats the reader like a dumb kid. Stating everything outright and not allowing the reader to think about it whatsoever.
One Piece has far less inconsistencies, relies far less on asspulls, and makes good use out of all of it's characters.

It's not a fighting series as much as a quest, adventure series. By requirement, it's more dependent on plot. Also, its characters can't destroy the universe.

thatdbzguy · Post by **thatdbzguy** » Tue Feb 25, 2014 9:22 am

ABED wrote:Also, its characters can't destroy the universe.

So?

Wibbs · Post by **Wibbs** » Tue Feb 25, 2014 9:26 am

thatdbzguy wrote:
Wibbs wrote: Your saying that a manga that starts out with a kid stabbing himself in the face is complex... Sure .

Define what you mean by better written. As far as I can tell One Piece treats the reader like a dumb kid. Stating everything outright and not allowing the reader to think about it whatsoever.
One Piece has far less inconsistencies, relies far less on asspulls, and makes good use out of all of it's characters.

So? That doesn't make it the biggest shit, being written to have zero inconsistencies and potholes doesn't make it a perfect manga. Neither of those two things can make up for it' average story and uninspired fight choreography.

thatdbzguy · Post by **thatdbzguy** » Tue Feb 25, 2014 9:29 am

Wibbs wrote:
thatdbzguy wrote:
Wibbs wrote: Your saying that a manga that starts out with a kid stabbing himself in the face is complex... Sure .

Define what you mean by better written. As far as I can tell One Piece treats the reader like a dumb kid. Stating everything outright and not allowing the reader to think about it whatsoever.
One Piece has far less inconsistencies, relies far less on asspulls, and makes good use out of all of it's characters.
So? That doesn't make it the biggest shit, being written to have zero inconsistencies and potholes doesn't make it a perfect manga. Neither of those two things can make up for it' average story and uninspired fight choreography.

If One Piece's story is "average", I cringe to think of what to label DBZ's story as.

ABED · Post by **ABED** » Tue Feb 25, 2014 9:35 am

thatdbzguy wrote:
ABED wrote:Also, its characters can't destroy the universe.
So?

The fights aren't going to be as big. They have to rely far less on "fireworks".

Wibbs · Post by **Wibbs** » Tue Feb 25, 2014 9:37 am

thatdbzguy wrote: If One Piece's story is "average", I cringe to think of what to label DBZ's story as.

Unique. At least that's what I think.

B · Post by B » Tue Feb 25, 2014 12:54 pm

thatdbzguy wrote:One Piece may not be "deep" compared to some other anime aimed at a more mature audience, but for a shonen, it's pretty complex, and it's definitely much better written than Dragon Ball.

I don't find "complex" to be an overtly positive term. "Complex" just means there is a lot of shit going on. Dragon Ball is complex, in terms of its world building and scope, perhaps not as large or ambitious as One Piece. Better written...? I suppose that's in the eye of the beholder. I'm not floored by the idea of my fiction spelling everything out for me the way One Piece does, and it does it with next to no finesse. Toriyama's writing is literally designed to not do that, because he never thought ahead to next week.

One Piece wants you to feel, but at the same time, it's very transparent about that. Dragon Ball is subtle in the fact that Toriyama rarely ever decided to delve into anything; be it specifics(who's stronger, Freeza planet trade, blah blah blah) or larger themes. Toriyama says DB has no theme; I think it has whatever theme or meaning you can draw out of it, and that's the beauty of it. Dragon Ball is an old treasure map while One Piece is a step-by-step schematic. Toriyama lets you engage your imagination; Oda indulges in his own. They're two valid approaches to crafting a story, and dismissing DB for what looks like faults on the surface does no favors for you or the material.

Mystic Buu · Post by **Mystic Buu** » Tue Feb 25, 2014 1:51 pm

If he tried to make DBZ deep it would be good.But not better...for me.

thatdbzguy · Post by **thatdbzguy** » Tue Feb 25, 2014 4:29 pm

Mystic Buu wrote:If he tried to make DBZ deep it would be good.But not better...for me.

So you're saying that you'd prefer DBZ to be bad?

Mystic Buu · Post by **Mystic Buu** » Tue Feb 25, 2014 4:44 pm

thatdbzguy wrote:
Mystic Buu wrote:If he tried to make DBZ deep it would be good.But not better...for me.
So you're saying that you'd prefer DBZ to be bad?

It's probably bad for you,but not for me.Everyone has his own opinion.

Kanzenshuu

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