Because I'm more of a fanboy than you are.

[El_Diablo]

I'm sure I remember Vegetto having lightning in his aura.

[Bejiita]

Bejiita, damn. Well I'm pretty convinced that Vegetto was only SSj1 - but can you give any more image examples? That one is very small, and a few more would put a nail in the coffin of the "Vegetto SSj1 / SSj2" debate

Well, when a character is SSJ2 there is electricity, when Vegetto goes SSJ there is electricity, but only for the transformation, after it's gone, SSJ2 always has some sparks.



Look here, no sparks, and his hair still looks like normal SSJ hair, and in the pic below.





SSJ2 Goku here, loads of electric, slightly bulkier.

This should sort of clear it up, I would do a sketch of how Vegetto SSJ2 should look, but not now.

[desirecampbell]

Not having the manga to check out SSj hair, I can't be certain but I thought SSj hait was much "bulkier" than this...



more like this..



or this... (thank you kanzentai )

[Dayspring]

Duo: I'll go double check the daizenshuu about #18. I could have sworn it was on the ABC-chart, but after checking VIZ's version I'm sure (French version I have cut out title pages for some reason. ). God I hope I'm not wrong; then I'll have to redo everything.

As for your "guesses", the reason why people seem to be giving you a hard is because you really are just making guesses. Though they're definitely educated guesses, and I agree with you in many of your arguments, this thread's numbers are only about using calculations of the last STATED point (SSJ Goku vs Freeza). That's why all mine have "a pl of WAY OVER x," since it's impossible to tell what X is. Every other number afterwards is a calculation (taken from comments in the manga, etc) based off the numbers we can attain. I'm sorry about any confusion.

Clarification for others: Daizenshuu lists SSJ2 as being twice SSJ. It lists SSJ3 as being three times SSJ.

Xyex: great theory about SSJ Goku vs Yakon. It clears a lot up considering he does the same with SSJ3 vs Buu.

[ShadowAssailantX]

Not having the manga to check out SSj hair, I can't be certain but I thought SSj hait was much "bulkier" than this...



more like this.. (thank you kanzentai )

I'm pretty sure this is merely due to the fact that Toriyama's style changed over time. Here's an example I just scanned, from Volume 40.



It's from right after Goten and Trunks fused (correctly), and you can see that they're only SSJ, yet their hair is still very defined.

[desirecampbell]

I'm pretty sure this is merely due to the fact that Toriyama's style changed over time. Here's an example I just scanned, from Volume 40.



It's from right after Goten and Trunks fused (correctly), and you can see that they're only SSJ, yet their hair is still very defined.

How can we assume that Gotenks isn't SSj2?

Is it necessary to have lightning form over the body to be considered SSj2? Lookinh at Gotenks there, I'd assume he was SSj2. Seems that this brings up the same problem - we assume Gotenks is only SSj1 because we aren't told otherwise and there's no lightning.


Are there any examples of...

> SSj1 with lighning?
> SSj2 without lightning?
> SSj1 hair, really defined
> SSj2 hair, not very defined


-edit- I just re-read your post and see that Gotenks probably is SSj1 (sinse it's the first time they fuzed)... so do we have any other shots of Gotenks where he's obviously SSj2 - so we can compare hair?

[ShadowAssailantX]

I'm pretty sure this is merely due to the fact that Toriyama's style changed over time. Here's an example I just scanned, from Volume 40.



It's from right after Goten and Trunks fused (correctly), and you can see that they're only SSJ, yet their hair is still very defined.

How can we assume that Gotenks isn't SSj2?

Is it necessary to have lightning form over the body to be considered SSj2? Lookinh at Gotenks there, I'd assume he was SSj2. Seems that this brings up the same problem - we assume Gotenks is only SSj1 because we aren't told otherwise and there's no lightning.


Are there any examples of...

> SSj1 with lighning?
> SSj2 without lightning?
> SSj1 hair, really defined
> SSj2 hair, not very defined

You have to remember that both Goten and Trunks both only knew how to achieve SSJ1 before the fusion, hence not being able to go past that after the fusion. Remember, it wasn't until Goten And Trunks trained in the Room Of Spirit And Time that they were able to go SSJ3. We never see any fused character go past a level that both the fusers have previously achieved. So I think we can safely say our man Gotenks here is SSJ1.

[desirecampbell]

You have to remember that both Goten and Trunks both only knew how to achieve SSJ1 before the fusion, hence not being able to go past that after the fusion. Remember, it wasn't until Goten And Trunks trained in the Room Of Spirit And Time that they were able to go SSJ3. We never see any fused character go past a level that both the fusers have previously achieved. So I think we can safely say our man Gotenks here is SSJ1.

Yeah, I edited my last post after I re-read your last post - he's got to be SSj1.
Do we have any other shots of Gotenks where he's obviously SSj2 - so we can compare hair? Maybe the hair isn't get any "pointier" or whatever as SSj2.


"We never see any fused character go past a level that both the fusers have previously achieved." Actually, Gotenks there goes SSj3, and we know Trunks and Goten never make it passed SSj1.

[ShadowAssailantX]

You have to remember that both Goten and Trunks both only knew how to achieve SSJ1 before the fusion, hence not being able to go past that after the fusion. Remember, it wasn't until Goten And Trunks trained in the Room Of Spirit And Time that they were able to go SSJ3. We never see any fused character go past a level that both the fusers have previously achieved. So I think we can safely say our man Gotenks here is SSJ1.

Yeah, I edited my last post after I re-read your last post - he's got to be SSj1.
Do we have any other shots of Gotenks where he's obviously SSj2 - so we can compare hair? Maybe the hair isn't get any "pointier" or whatever as SSj2.

Sorry, but right now Viz has only released volumes 1-40, so I can't be of much help with that. Someone would need to post something from either a scanslation or a Japanese Tankoubon scan.

"We never see any fused character go past a level that both the fusers have previously achieved." Actually, Gotenks there goes SSj3, and we know Trunks and Goten never make it passed SSj1.

Heh, I was going to edit my post too, cause I realized that right after I posted it, but I decided it was too late, since I figured you had already quoted me...

What I meant to say was when they fuse, the new entity is at the level both the fusers are currently at during the dance, which would be SSJ1 in this case.

[desirecampbell]

Heh, I was going to edit my post too, cause I realized that right after I posted it, but I decided it was too late, since I figured you had already quoted me...

What I meant to say was when they fuse, the new entity is at the level both the fusers are currently at during the dance, which would be SSJ1 in this case.

Ah... that makes sense. I'll look for some online... though I doubt that'll get anything good. I hope *nudge*nudge* that someone *wink*wink* will find some good examples

[Duo]

VegettoEX

My apologies if the original post that caused all this was taken offensively. I was simply attempting to get my critic to help me understand what he was trying to tell me, and I let it go a bit too far and should have thought out my statement better. I was wrong for that. The way I retaliated at you was incorrect as well. Again, my apologies.

It isn't that I have some inflated ego or something, even if it may come off that way. It's just that I've dealt in this subject a lot (and I mean...a lot) and while it may not seem that significant to you, I like to think I can offer a thing or two having paid very close attention to a lot of details to reach my conclusions. Thus, when someone disagrees, I like to know how I can better convince them to improve myself, or change my opinion if mine turns out wrong. Bah, I'm over-explaining this already.

Anyway, this was an apparent miscommunication combined with some impatience on my part. If it is still a big deal to you, just give the word and I'll quietly leave. If not, that's fine too.

For Chrait sakes...

Duo, you ARE guessing. You may think you aren't, but you are. You accussed Dayspring of guessing (which is is) and then flipped out when you got called on your own guessing. You ARE being a prick, and we'd all like you to stop.

Ugh...you make it hard not to get upset again.

Duo: I'll go double check the daizenshuu about #18. I could have sworn it was on the ABC-chart, but after checking VIZ's version I'm sure (French version I have cut out title pages for some reason. Mad ). God I hope I'm not wrong; then I'll have to redo everything. Sad

As for your "guesses", the reason why people seem to be giving you a hard is because you really are just making guesses. Though they're definitely educated guesses, and I agree with you in many of your arguments, this thread's numbers are only about using calculations of the last STATED point (SSJ Goku vs Freeza). That's why all mine have "a pl of WAY OVER x," since it's impossible to tell what X is. Every other number afterwards is a calculation (taken from comments in the manga, etc) based off the numbers we can attain. I'm sorry about any confusion.

Honestly, what little you had to say towards me really made me feel a lot better. Thanks for sticking up for me if even just a little bit.

Now, with my approach, I was hoping to be a bit more specific than yours while presenting some stuff I felt you didn't approach fully. I also thought your intent was for such an approach, but it seems I may have been wrong?

Now, on regard of the Super Vegetto subject...I would like to note that there are occasions, when powering into a form, that the aura of a Super Saiya'jin will, for a single frame, be as intense as a level higher than it is. I feel this is the case with Vegetto, because after he initial transformation, his Aura matches every other normal Ssj Aura throughout the Manga. I wouldn't pay much attention to the hair because...



Ssj2 Goku...



Ssj Goku, just a few chapters earlier.

As you can see, both are pretty well defined. This does make it more confusing on the subject of Vegetto, and only leaves us with the Aura to work with, which looks like...



Sorry, I couldn't find one of Vegetto. You'll have to take my word that it's the same, or wait for someone else to follow up with an actual pic. But yes, that is how it looks. If you aren't familiar with Ssj2 Aura's, here's a real good example of one.



In conclusion, the evidence points towards "Super Vegetto" being just a normal Ssj. Clearly, he didn't even need to use the full extent of Super Saiya'jin ("Super Saiya'jin Full Power", some call it, which has different aura) let alone Ssj2.

And in the Anime, he only has an Aura a couple times throughout the entire fight.

---------------------

Now, Dayspring, I have a hard time accepting the idea of such low multipliers for Ssj2 and Ssj3. Not that I'm a crack addict whore about it, but it seems like the difference between Ssj2 Majin Vegeta and Ssj3 Goku would be bigger than a 1.5 increase. This may be one of those things the Daizenshuu got wrong (Imo, it's happened a couple times before. I hope I'm not waking up some taboo by saying this.) that we need to work around, or something else...

Anyway, that'll be the end of this post.

[ShadowAssailantX]

Alright Alright..... I searched and searched and I think I finally found some great pictures to compare!









So as you can plainly see by those extremely rare alternate covers, there is little difference in his hair throughout the transformation.

I hope this clears up any more questions on the matter.

[ItsAllGood]

Hmm..Moving away from the SSJ group...

The theory about Piccolo fused with Kami intrigues me. We seem to have overlooked the fact that Piccolo is vastly more powerful than Kami to begin with. So how do we come to the conclusion that Kami +Piccolo = Twice as powerful?

I would say, at best, Kami is perhaps one-third or two-third's Piccolo's strength. I believe that Piccolo required the extra power just to put him "over the top" of First Form Cell. Piccolo had been in training constantly, whilst Kami stood around (in a manner of speaking)

Indeed, it could just be that being a "whole" Namek again helped, but I really don't see how Kami and Piccolo could be classed as equals, even though they are the one person.

[desirecampbell]

Hmm..Moving away from the SSJ group...

The theory about Piccolo fused with Kami intrigues me. We seem to have overlooked the fact that Piccolo is vastly more powerful than Kami to begin with. So how do we come to the conclusion that Kami +Piccolo = Twice as powerful?

I would say, at best, Kami is perhaps one-third or two-third's Piccolo's strength. I believe that Piccolo required the extra power just to put him "over the top" of First Form Cell. Piccolo had been in training constantly, whilst Kami stood around (in a manner of speaking)

Indeed, it could just be that being a "whole" Namek again helped, but I really don't see how Kami and Piccolo could be classed as equals, even though they are the one person.

It comes from a discussion we had a little while back, where no matter how powerful Piccolo got he was only ever 50% of what he really was. So when he fuzed back with Kami he becamse "all he could be" so to speak. It was more like (Piccolo + Kami)x2, but because Kami had almost no power to speak of comparred to Piccolo we just say (Piccolo x 2).

[Bejiita]

Just to say Toriyama changed his art style for the later series, and he makes the standard SSJ hair more distinct anyway.



Pictures like this don't really count because at that time the SSJ hair was less detailed. If you see any of Toriyama's new eart you'll see how he does even the standard hair more detailed, take the Goku on the front of the new Dragon Box movies, he's SSJ1 but every strand of hair is there.

I'll post a picture I will sketch of Vegetto if he was a SSJ2 in a sec.

[MyVisionity]

I think it may be worth noting that Vegetto's hair is a combination of both Goku's and Vegeta's, so it may not exactly follow the usual SSJ/SSJ2 appearances.

[Dayspring]

Hmm..Moving away from the SSJ group...

The theory about Piccolo fused with Kami intrigues me. We seem to have overlooked the fact that Piccolo is vastly more powerful than Kami to begin with. So how do we come to the conclusion that Kami +Piccolo = Twice as powerful?

I would say, at best, Kami is perhaps one-third or two-third's Piccolo's strength. I believe that Piccolo required the extra power just to put him "over the top" of First Form Cell. Piccolo had been in training constantly, whilst Kami stood around (in a manner of speaking)

Indeed, it could just be that being a "whole" Namek again helped, but I really don't see how Kami and Piccolo could be classed as equals, even though they are the one person.

It comes from a discussion we had a little while back, where no matter how powerful Piccolo got he was only ever 50% of what he really was. So when he fuzed back with Kami he becamse "all he could be" so to speak. It was more like (Piccolo + Kami)x2, but because Kami had almost no power to speak of comparred to Piccolo we just say (Piccolo x 2).

WTF?! That makes no sense. What about when Piccolo+Nail fuse? (42,000+ ~3,500) x 2 =/= 1 million. And I strongly doubt Kami had 2/3 of Piccolo's strength. I mean, come on, Kami says at the 23rd budoukai that Piccolo vastly surpassed him.


As for Vegetto and Gotenks being SSJ2, lightning bolts in your aura IS a factor of SSJ2. What throws people off is that Vegetto has said lightning when he immediately transforms into SSJ. They immediately disappear starting from the next panel. This either indicates that he went SSJ2 for a split second, or that his SSJ form at max power is as strong as SSJ2. If it's the latter, I think Vegetto can go SSJ3 with ease, since "above Super Saiyan" for Gotenks shoots straight into SSJ3.

And Gotenks was never SSJ2. He refers to himself as a regular SSJ, as does Piccolo. Flame auras, no matter how erratic, are simply an indication of strength.


[can of worms]And Vegeta goes SSJ2 against Chibi Buu. [/can of worms]

[DBZ MAN]

Well Everytime some fuses like Gotenks and Gogeta they start of as super saiyan. Theres no reason why Vegetto is not super saiyan either.
And we know for sure that Gotenks is a super saiyan in the picture at the top, becasue in the games you can only play SSJ and SSJ 3 (oh that annoys me ).

[Bejiita]

This is like two topics in one, heh.

Vegetto could have easily gone SSJ2 or 3, he had the potential too, seeing as two kids can do it, even if they trained in another dimension. But this is what I wanted to show, a quick drawing of what I think SSJ2 Vegetto would look, I've drawn SSJ1 too to compare, these are just 2 minute pics I drew off the top of my head.





MyVisionity, I know what you are trying to say, but I don't think it makes much sense, even if they are fused, the hair can't really make any drastic changes when transforming, basically, base form Vegetto's hair is the same when he goes super, if it was SSJ2 it would look slightly different and usually, SSJ1 is similar to when the hair is normal, well, the fringe anyway, the back lifts up a bit, but SSJ2's power forces more hair to rise, like, Gohan from the Cell games, his hiar front is like Goku's, about four spikes of hair for the fringe, but there is one strand coming down when he is SSJ2.

[Akira]

I've remained hands off on this topic until now because I was not sure how long it was going to be around. It seems if we remain civil and reasonable, this is going to be allowed so I'll toss my thoughts in on a couple of points. The thing to remember is these are all gray areas, and none of us is totally accurate with our ideas on these matters. Furthermore, we are unlikely to reach any rock solid conclusions. Strong theories and opinions at best are all we can hope to achieve. That is not to say we should not have these discussions at all, but merely to keep it all in perspective as a sharing of ideas. I am one to talk, as I often have felt my ideas were correct on some things. If we keep these things in mind [myself included] this discussion will go much more smoothly.

I will touch on each of the three main items I have seen discussed in this topic. I will Bold the head of each spot where I change to another point so if you want to skip to a certain point easier you can. I say this in advance because I know I often get long winded, and it can be difficult to skim my posts for one specific point.

On the matter of Piccolo:

Although math equations are often redundant and annoying, in this case I agree with what was stated previously.

(Piccolo Daimao Junior + Kami Piccolo) x 2

That very much sums up the way I believe it to work for that specific remerging. They were both 50% of the original complete 100% namek, therefore that equation makes sense. Nail was entirely different, a completely seperate entity merging with basically half an entity. Nail was wounded badly by Freeza and near death. He recognized Piccolo, and stated that it was too bad that he came to the battle "incomplete" so to speak. He states then that had Piccolo come as his true self, Freeza would like nothing to him.

Nail becomes the submissive entity and merges with Piccolo even though at full health he would have been far stronger. The equation used to figure out how thier fused power worked would NOT be the same as the one used to figure out the Piccolo + Kami remerger. I will leave that to be determined by someone else, but I know that there would be a different method to determine how thier 100% + 50% merger worked.


On the matter of Super Saiyans:

This is a tough matter, but I'll throw my info into the ring and you guys can do as you will with it. It seems to me that after reaching Super Saiyan 2, that it just becomes the basic fighting form. As we well know, it is only actually referred to as "Super Saiyan 2" one time.

Both Goku and Vegeta just power up to this form automatically when they "Turn Super Saiyan". When they prepare for thier battle [Second fight during the Buu era] Goku states that he is going to end it quickly by, as he states, "Going full power". Goku and Vegeta both go Super Saiyan 2 and push thier power to maximum. Gohan realizes it and is the only one to mention that they are actually "fighting at the level beyond Super Saiyan."

They both become Super Saiyan 2 against Chibi Majin Buu at the end (anime) also. At this point they don't mention what form they are using, it is just thier basic fighting form by this point. I guess what I am driving at is that aside from Goku mentioning the different stages to Buu and Babidi, they don't really mention that someone is "Using Super Saiyan 2", they barely even mention "Level beyond Super Saiyan". Just they are fighting as "Super Saiyans". Level 2 is not all that different from Level 1 so the distinction is really necessary until Goku displays Level 3. That is always referred to as "Super Saiyan 3".

They don't really mention what they are fighting as, they just say "Super Saiyan" for Level 1 or 2 in many cases and you are left to assume the characters know what form it is. How does this tie into the discussion? Well, Vegito merely refers to himself as "Super Vegito". He doesn't say Super Saiyan or Super Saiyan 2.

I would like to throw out the posibility that "Super" Vegito is Super Saiyan 2. However, because of the fact that he is a fused warrior and his power is so great, he does not need to exude such power outputs that would constantly show the sparks and out pouring aura to maintain the form. I like to think of him like we do of Goku and Gohan [Cell era] as what I call "Controlled Super Saiyans" or "Full Power Super Saiyans" as I see many of you call them.

Vegito's power is so great, it is nothing to maintain "Full power Super Saiyan 2" if you will. Thus explaining the Super Saiyan 2ish hair without the constant aura. Merely a theory, a decent one in my opinion, make of it what you will.

On the matter of Power Levels:

Aside from those gathered directy from the Manga, Anime, and Daizenshuu guidebooks, there are very few others that can be determined with absolute certainty. The only ones you can determine exactly truly are those within the story arcs that scouters are used in. Sometimes there is battle factors and higher and lower given battle powers that you can reference and determine with pinpoint accuracy a given power. If someone else can do this elsewhere, I'd like to hear thier information, because I have found it to be impossible.

I will give the one example where I feel I've grabbed power levels from the saiyan saga that are not listed, but can give them with almost absolute certainty as being correct.

Battle against Vegeta:
1770 – Krillin
2800 – Son Gohan
28000 – Oozaru Son Gohan
8000 – Son Goku
16000 – Son Goku (Kaioken x2)
24000 – Son Goku (Kaioken x3)
32000 – Son Goku (Kaioken x4)
18000 – Vegeta
24000 – Vegeta (maximum – Gallick-ho)
180000 – Oozaru Vegeta

These are from my own guide that I made. I refused to include any guesses, only those determinable. So you look at this list and need to realize the following:

These are the only battle powers from that battle listed in the Daizenshuu guidebook:

Battle against Vegeta:
1770 – Krillin
2800 – Son Gohan
8000 – Son Goku
32000 – Son Goku (Kaioken x4)
18000 – Vegeta

So where did I get all these numbers(?):

Battle against Vegeta:
28000 – Oozaru Son Gohan
16000 – Son Goku (Kaioken x2)
24000 – Son Goku (Kaioken x3)
24000 – Vegeta (maximum – Gallick-ho)
180000 – Oozaru Vegeta

Here is how I detrmined these numbers with accuracy:

>We know from the Daizenshuu that Oozaru from is ten times the battle power of the Saiyan's base form. So that explains Son Gohan and Vegeta's Oozaru forms battle powers and thier accuracy.

>Kaioken is also a multiplier. We are given Goku's Base power and his Kaioken x4 Power. The math works (8000 x 4 = 32000), therefore I simply did (8000 x 2) and (8000 x 3) for Kaioken x2 and x3 to determine those powers.

>Early on, thier battle powers went up when they were using thier most powerful techniques. We see this when Goku and Piccolo tackle Raditz with Kamehameha and Makosensappa. It happens here too with Vegeta at 24000 when using Gallick-ho. How did I come at that number? Watch the battle, Goku and Vegeta have a beam struggle. Goku uses Kaioken x3 to make his Kamehameha match dead even with Vegeta's Gallick-ho. Neither can overpower the other, unless one of them gives out. Goku realizes that he will give out in ki first and desperately uses Kaioken x4 to jump to 32000 and blast Vegeta out of the air.

Vegeta is also seen as having a base power of 24000 in the very next saga after healing and getting his Saiyan power boost from near death experience. Piccolo did something similar. His beam max was 1330 for Makosensappa against Raditz. In the next saga his base power was 1220, not too far off from his previous beam max.

The main factor in determining that one was the beam struggle though. I feel that all my information on those is acually 99.99% accurate. The Kaioken numbers I fell are 100% accurate.

I don't think it is possible to guage the levels after Trunks arrives. I don't think it matters after that either. I agree that some levels (like the ones I have used as examples above) can be determined with great accuracy. But there are very few instances like that. Since the original intent of this topic was to discuss those not directly given, I can post what I have found in my next response if anyone is interested. However, I doubt we will draw any definate conclusions beyond that. Plus, there will always be the issue of wiether or not tha last few battle powers given for Freeza and Goku are accurate or if the Daizenshuu misprinted an extra zero on them.

Last word on battle powers, let's discuss them sure, but be ready to agree to disagree and willing to accpt that some of them just cannot be determined with the information available. I've long though Recoome to be 40000, but there isn't enough information to prove it. I don't include it in my personal guide because it would be a guess, and that wouldn't do any good to claim if it can't be proven. Keep an open mind and take everything with a grain of salt in this discussion.