Why so much filler?

[Super Sonic]

Personally I think the best example of filler was the first 1/3 of Sailor Moon R. I liked that more than the Garlic Jr. Saga.

[MyVisionity]

The continunity problem in the Garlic Jr saga is by no way 'minor'. It just doesn't make sense to be fitted into the series. It's like Broly coming back to get revenge on the Z-fighters from movie 8. It just doesn't work.

It works fine if it's a filler saga. They totally could've done a Brolly saga if they had wanted. I don't think he would have been the best choice with all of the Saiyajin backstory, but it could have been done. Like with Garlic Jr., the continuity problems would have been minor/irrelevant.

Garlic Junior had the best potential as a movie character to be brought into the series at that point. I think that saga works great through giving the other characters a chance to shine, plus we got some nice Vegeta scenes in space that really makes you look forward to the next arc.

[Deus ex Machina]

The continunity problem in the Garlic Jr saga is by no way 'minor'. It just doesn't make sense to be fitted into the series. It's like Broly coming back to get revenge on the Z-fighters from movie 8. It just doesn't work.

I think it's just the opposite; aside from the fact that DBZ Movie 1 doesn't perfectly fit into the series contuity, the saga takes place during the span of an entire year in the manga, where everyone was basically doing nothing while waiting for Goku.

I wish they had done some more with that huge gap in the series between the Cell Games and the Great Saiyaman saga. I'm sure they could've done a dozen little filler arcs about Gohan and the others defending the Earth, and more on Goku's training in after life. One little tournament arc wasn't enough. :/

[Domon]

The continunity problem in the Garlic Jr saga is by no way 'minor'. It just doesn't make sense to be fitted into the series.

Really, what continunity problems are we talking about here? The ones that comes from the film? Which would be things like Kuririn knowing about Gohan before he's suppose to(even though he does not find out his name), or that Goku has an idea of Gohan's powers before he's suppose to? (though in the film, he decieded not to worry about it much) All of those are minor continunity glitches. We're not talking about something like somebody being alive at a point when they're suppose to be dead. If we were talking about say... movie 12, then yes, there IS a hugh problem here, since that movie shows Goku and Vegeta both dead, even though at least one should be alive.

[Tsukento]

Really, what continunity problems are we talking about here? The ones that comes from the film? Which would be things like Kuririn knowing about Gohan before he's suppose to(even though he does not find out his name), or that Goku has an idea of Gohan's powers before he's suppose to? (though in the film, he decieded not to worry about it much) All of those are minor continunity glitches. We're not talking about something like somebody being alive at a point when they're suppose to be dead. If we were talking about say... movie 12, then yes, there IS a hugh problem here, since that movie shows Goku and Vegeta both dead, even though at least one should be alive.

It wasn't until Gohan displayed his power that Piccolo decided to take Gohan along for training. Especially since he's freaked out by seeing Gohan break out of Radditz's pod and then slam into him.

Besides, everyone knowing Gohan and Goku coming out to the Kame House with Bulma, Kuririn and Roshi all there doesn't serve much continuation either since they were all supposedly having a reunion at the begining of Z. Goku was stopping by after a few years had passed and was even showing them his new son. Pretty obvious none of them kept in touch for a few years, especially when Kuririn and Roshi weren't aware of Bulma and Yamcha splitting up.

Or have we also forgotten it couldn't have been a year between the movie and the series for Shenlong and the Dragon Balls to return?

Hell, I believe GT didn't acknowledge the wish by Garlic Jr. when it came to the Dark Dragons arc of GT. o_O;

[Domon]

Again; those are all minor problems that doesn't really impact the story in a significant manner.

Or have we also forgotten it couldn't have been a year between the movie and the series for Shenlong and the Dragon Balls to return?

I don't see why it couldn't, other than maybe, that Gohan doesn't appear to be any different at age 3 than age 4. But again, a minor thing.

Hell, I believe GT didn't acknowledge the wish by Garlic Jr. when it came to the Dark Dragons arc of GT. o_O;

GT didn't even mention what wishes made the last few dragons made, and didn't even reference all the wishes made in the manga. So this isn't really saying much.

[DBZ MAN]

Their not minor. They can completley confuse people and send them way off track. If your writing a story, you don't want to give it any holes. It's like trying to put a jigsaw in the wrong area of the board. It just doesn't fit.

[desirecampbell]

I agree, these inconsistancies aren't 'minor'. If Movie 1 had happened, there wouldn't be any reason to worry about Gohan (they already know he can kick ass). And what would have happened if they knew Gohan was that powerful? They would've used him to fight Raditz, and Goku wouldn't have had to die. Vegeta and Nappa would never have heard of the DragonBalls and the whole series would've stopped there.

[DBZ MAN]

Exactly.

If it's one thing I have noticed watching Dragonball Z, It's that if you change one minor thing then you change the course of the whole series.

[tarsonis]

Perhaps the Garlic Jr. saga was based on events that we didn't actually see and not on what was in Movie 1. That is, maybe Movie 1 was in the alternate what-if timeline like the rest of the movies. Just a theory, because we know the movies aren't canon.

[Domon]

Their not minor. They can completley confuse people and send them way off track. If your writing a story, you don't want to give it any holes.

But holes do happen in just about every story that ever existed, and for varitity of reasons. Ie, they didn't know, forgetfullness, change of writers, directors, or ignoring something so they can do a certain element, or they just didn't think anyone would notice. Or in the case of Dragonball, a lot of filler glitches are because the series wasn't finished when they made the series, and there was nothing to indicate that things might be contradicted later.

The point is; one may not want to give a series plotholes, but they DO happen, and in just about every series that ever existed. Even the manga has a few plot glitches in it(ehy, why was Future Trunks talking about No. 19 and 20 if he never heard of them?). One can only hope that the holes are minor and doesn't really screw up any important points. The Dead Zone movie doesn't have any serious, serious screw-up like some of the later movies do. Some of what you're argueing is just excessive nitpicking.

If Movie 1 had happened, there wouldn't be any reason to worry about Gohan (they already know he can kick ass). And what would have happened if they knew Gohan was that powerful? They would've used him to fight Raditz, and Goku wouldn't have had to die. Vegeta and Nappa would never have heard of the DragonBalls and the whole series would've stopped there.

I don't see this senario as remotely plausable. The same set of events can happen, even with the movie in mind(and it did happen in the anime version of events). Even Raditz is much stronger than Garlic Jr. was in Dead Zone, and no one had any idea whenever or not Gohan's display of power was just a fluke, or even if he could control it. It's the exact same set of events, but with just a few slight change in thoughts. There's no need to say that a few added things throws things out of wrack.

[desirecampbell]

If Movie 1 had happened, there wouldn't be any reason to worry about Gohan (they already know he can kick ass). And what would have happened if they knew Gohan was that powerful? They would've used him to fight Raditz, and Goku wouldn't have had to die. Vegeta and Nappa would never have heard of the DragonBalls and the whole series would've stopped there.

I don't see this senario as remotely plausable. The same set of events can happen, even with the movie in mind(and it did happen in the anime version of events). Even Raditz is much stronger than Garlic Jr. was in Dead Zone, and no one had any idea whenever or not Gohan's display of power was just a fluke, or even if he could control it. It's the exact same set of events, but with just a few slight change in thoughts. There's no need to say that a few added things throws things out of wrack.

I disagree. Firstly, How do we know how strong Garlic Jr. is? Goku and Piccolo couldn't beat either, and Gohan (when enraged) was strong enough to knock each one of them around a bit. While Goku and Piccolo could have (and probably did) get dtronger in the year up to Radditz, we know that Gohan didn't.
As to if anyone thought Gohan would do that again, we know that Piccolo did. He took Gohan away to be trained because he saw such potential.
And if Piccolo knew that Gohan had that much power he would have used him to help the battle. Even if it just kept Radditz distracted it should have been more than enough to help take down Radditz.
Now, this is all following logic - which the DragonBall characters don't always adhear to. But it's more than likely, given the actions of Piccolo in particular.

[Thanos6]

Even the manga has a few plot glitches in it(ehy, why was Future Trunks talking about No. 19 and 20 if he never heard of them?).

Because Toriyama's editor didn't like 19 and 20 and pressured him to pick someone else as the new main villains.

In-universe? I dunno. Maybe Mirai got nervous about meeting this "legend," accidentally said the wrong numbers, and didn't realize it till he'd already left.

[Domon]

And if Piccolo knew that Gohan had that much power he would have used him to help the battle. Even if it just kept Radditz distracted it should have been more than enough to help take down Radditz.
Now, this is all following logic - which the DragonBall characters don't always adhear to. But it's more than likely, given the actions of Piccolo in particular.

But he didn't, even though the anime does state that Dead Zone happened. In work of fictions, writers do paint themselves into corners from time to time, and one simply has to accept that logic gaps exists. I think you just need to accept that, rather than trying to pretend that "it just didn't happen" as so many are strangely prone to. Given that an intense battle was going on, I don't see this case as that big of a deal. Perhaps things were happing too fast for him to think of using Gphan as a weapon, or perhaps he thought it would be far too risky to henge on an untrained, unreliable source(the battle did cost him an arm...), and upon completion of the battle, vowed to train Gohan so that he would be useable in battle(of course, it didn't quite end up that way, but the idea was sound). I'd rather we'd see more efforts into simple but plasable explaination for things, rather than pretending it never happened.

Because Toriyama's editor didn't like 19 and 20 and pressured him to pick someone else as the new main villains.

Now this sounds like the apologist arguement. It doesn't change that there is a minor continunity error there.

In-universe? I dunno. Maybe Mirai got nervous about meeting this "legend," accidentally said the wrong numbers, and didn't realize it till he'd already left.

Now this is what I'd like to see; a simple, yet workable suggestion on how to explain something. I don't see why we can't do this more often.

[El_Diablo]

Because it has no real effect on the story, characters and universe.

[Duo]

Now this sounds like the apologist arguement. It doesn't change that there is a minor continunity error there.

However (since what he stated is fairly well know information), it is the actual, true explanation of the situation. Just because it doesn't fix the hole doesn't make it any less true.

Now this is what I'd like to see; a simple, yet workable suggestion on how to explain something. I don't see why we can't do this more often.

Not that I have anything against "In-universe" explanations, there's no point if you're just going to ignore the actual explanation. It's like a little discussion that occured on this board a week or two ago about "Why Piccolo didn't use Shishin to protect Gohan?" the explanation is because all instances of him using it are Filler, which Toriyama-sensei had no awareness of when he wrote the event. You can come up with "in universe" explanations and that's all fine and dandy, but don't ignore the true explanation if it is there.

At least, that's just my opinion.

I'm regretting my earlier post about "80% of Filler sucks" because I can see how far it steered this thread off course, which probably isn't recoverable at this point.

[Domon]

Not that I have anything against "In-universe" explanations, there's no point if you're just going to ignore the actual explanation. It's like a little discussion that occured on this board a week or two ago about "Why Piccolo didn't use Shishin to protect Gohan?" the explanation is because all instances of him using it are Filler, which Toriyama-sensei had no awareness of when he wrote the event. You can come up with "in universe" explanations and that's all fine and dandy, but don't ignore the true explanation if it is there.

No one is denying the real-life reasons of things(and I even brought it up earlier in this thread). All I'm saying is that I'd rather see far less of this persistence idea that they never happened, and more of trying to reason how they can work into things.

[DBZ MAN]

You can reason with things that have minor changes but not things that affect the structure of continuity. This then alters the course of the whole story. That’s why non-canon doesn't go with canon.

Take Spider-man for example, If Uncle Ben never died then Peter Parker would have never of felt guilt and wouldn't of felt to peruse being a 'hero' instead of an entertainer. Say a villain rose from this predicament some how in this what-if story and then you tried to place it in the story line of the ongoing comic series. It just wouldn't work because the villain came from a completely different plot from what has happened in the 'what if' story.

I can only guess that you could argue that when we were watching the Garlic JR saga, we were looking at the events that happened from the universe of the dead zone movie.

[tarsonis]

I can only guess that you could argue that when we were watching the Garlic JR saga, we were looking at the events that happened from the universe of the dead zone movie.

But this takes us back to the idea that if the Garlic Jr. saga is based on movie 1, then the whole series must incorporate those events in the storyline. But if that's true, then we have the whole why-was-Kuririn-surprised scene in the first episode of the series.

If the movies are indeed in an alternate reality, then one theory is that series is in its own reality that still had the events of Garlic Jr. and the dead zone, except that Kuririn wasn't there.

[DBZ MAN]

The only way is to have the Dead Zone movie in there but it would mean to take the battle with Raditz out and everything that pretty much follows.