Who is REALLY Dr. Gero's ultimate creation?

The Chibi Kiriyama · Post by **The Chibi Kiriyama** » Sun Jun 11, 2006 10:12 pm

Everything from 1 to 7 broke. 8 proved to be a pacifist (and anything peaceful in his creation's nature flags it as a "failure" in Gero's eyes), so much so that it actually helped the individual he wanted to kill. 9 and 15 were described to have technical difficulties, and 16 was an "utter failure" in that he is as peaceful as 8 but with infinitely more power due to the primary objective of killing Son Goku that he was equipped to perform. 17 and 18 were seen as failures as their attitudes were rebellious and they had too much power to be reigned in outside of threatening to deactivate them. For all the good that did, as Gero eventually fell to the duo; 17, to be exact. 19 had his purpose, and Gero gave no real emotional frustration to his passing.

By far Cell is his penultimate creation, and in it's complete form he is Gero's ultimate creation. The computer that told Cell himself such was programmed by Gero, and I doubt it would tell Cell (Gero's life work in culminated flesh) otherwise. In his perfect state Cell could regenerate himself, utilize the Saiyan blood in him to receive massive power increases, and then destroy any planet without fearing a lack of atmosphere due to his ability to survive in space thanks to the cells from Freeza and King Cold respectively. Gero's ulitmate goal in creating the perfect killing machine was Cell and Cell alone.

Domon · Post by **Domon** » Sun Jun 11, 2006 10:23 pm

Majin Cell wrote:Well almost any plotholes in the Cell saga are created by filler. And the ones that are in the manga are few in number and are not huge like the ones in the Super#17 saga.

It's more like flaws created by anime-only materials are overhyped by fans, and flaws present in the original manga are somehow both examined to death and underplayed by those same fans.

But enough of that, this isn't a anime-defense topic. As I've said earlier, I am willing to contend that the answer to "Dr. Gero most powerful creation" is Cell in the manga, but Super 17 for the anime(since the two are somewhat seperate storylines).

Majin Cell · Post by **Majin Cell** » Mon Jun 12, 2006 12:20 am

Well the manga is the real story so that would mean that Cell is Dr.Geros true masterpiece. The anime is just the story brought to life. Thats how i see it anyways.

Duo · Post by **Duo** » Mon Jun 12, 2006 1:49 am

Majin Cell wrote:Well the manga is the real story so that would mean that Cell is Dr.Geros true masterpiece. The anime is just the story brought to life. Thats how i see it anyways.

Not "brought to life" but "brought to another presentation" in which movement, (more) color, and audio was present. I say this because, for me, I actually find the Manga to be more alive and powerful. I like the Anime, but I love the Manga.

...ending my little off-topic rant...

Steven Perry · Post by **Steven Perry** » Mon Jun 12, 2006 1:19 pm

Come to think of it, Dr. Gero's "ultimate" creation is NONE of the aforementioned. Who had the mind to create the androids in the first place? Dr. Gero himself. And, if I'm not mistaken, Dr. Gero turned himself into an android... meaning that he was created by his former self! Gero's ultimate creation is his android self!

Majin Cell · Post by **Majin Cell** » Tue Jun 13, 2006 3:03 pm

One thing i would like to point out is that although Dr.Gero is'nt entirely responsible for Super 17 he is more responsible than Dr.Myuu. Dr.Myuu did contribute to Super 17s creation by adding whatever parts were needed but it was Dr.Gero who thought of the idea to upgrade #17. At least according to GT. Now that i think about it was the second artificial 17 created using just Dr.Geros technology , Dr.Myuus tehcnology or a combination of both ?

Drunken Master · Post by **Drunken Master** » Tue Jun 13, 2006 4:30 pm

Cell of course. Super #13 and #17 aren't canon. That's what I go by at least.

t0ffe3m4n · Post by **t0ffe3m4n** » Wed Jun 14, 2006 9:35 pm

You shouldn't really base this on whats "canon" and what isn't... thats just a pretty unconvincing standpoint. Having said that, I do believe that Gero's "ultimate creation" was Cell, since it was both he and Myuu who "created" Super 17 together.

Majin Cell · Post by **Majin Cell** » Thu Jun 15, 2006 2:52 am

Well i guess the answer to the question depends on if you consider GT an official part of the DragonBall universe. Anyway i think Cell is because thats what the original manga says.

BlueSky · Post by **Kaboom** » Thu Jun 15, 2006 1:07 pm

Majin Cell wrote:Well i guess the answer to the question depends on if you consider GT an official part of the DragonBall universe.

It may have it's plotholes, but GT is most definitely an official, countable, and "canon" continuation of the series. Toriyama-sensei has both given it his approval and done artwork and character designs for it. Short of him doing a manga version, I don't think it can get any more "canon" than that...

Anyhoo, to contribute to the topic, Gero's ultimate creation would probably be Super Perfect Cell, since Super 17 was a co-product of himself and Myuu. Although, you could say he had some help in making Cell, too, if you include all the different fighters he got the genetic material from...

Duo · Post by **Duo** » Thu Jun 15, 2006 2:00 pm

SSj Kaboom wrote:
Majin Cell wrote:Well i guess the answer to the question depends on if you consider GT an official part of the DragonBall universe.
It may have it's plotholes, but GT is most definitely an official, countable, and "canon" continuation of the series. Toriyama-sensei has both given it his approval and done artwork and character designs for it. Short of him doing a manga version, I don't think it can get any more "canon" than that...

*CoughanimecanonCough*

And I don't really think Toriyama-sensei realized the atrocity (compared to DragonBall/Z) to follow when he "approved" GT.

Olivier Hague · Post by **Olivier Hague** » Thu Jun 15, 2006 7:06 pm

SSj Kaboom wrote:It may have it's plotholes, but GT is most definitely an official, countable, and "canon" continuation of the series.

Official, but not canon. Like the movies. Or, heck, the TV series and its filler.

Toriyama-sensei has both given it his approval and done artwork and character designs for it.

He did the same thing for the movies, so...

BlueSky · Post by **Kaboom** » Thu Jun 15, 2006 7:23 pm

Well, my point was that I don't think GT should be considered so much of an "outsider" of the series as it often is. I mean, GT (like the movies and filler) is, like it or not, as much a part of the Dragonball world as anything else, but too often, it tends to be dismissed too easily, in a sort of "Oh, that's just GT..." manner.

Nothing meant beyond that.

Sebastian (SB) · Post by **Sebastian (SB)** » Thu Jun 15, 2006 8:06 pm

SSj Kaboom wrote:Well, my point was that I don't think GT should be considered so much of an "outsider" of the series as it often is. I mean, GT (like the movies and filler) is, like it or not, as much a part of the Dragonball world as anything else, but too often, it tends to be dismissed too easily, in a sort of "Oh, that's just GT..." manner.

Nothing meant beyond that.

I have to strongly agree with you there. I don't like much of the criticism that GT gets simply because it's not as superior as the Dragon Ball titles before it. Also on what's canon or not, I'd like to think that there's two different types of canon, anime canon & manga canon. I go more by what's canon towards the manga. So yeah...Cell.

Post by **desirecampbell** » Thu Jun 15, 2006 8:25 pm

Sebastian (SB) wrote:
SSj Kaboom wrote:Well, my point was that I don't think GT should be considered so much of an "outsider" of the series as it often is. I mean, GT (like the movies and filler) is, like it or not, as much a part of the Dragonball world as anything else, but too often, it tends to be dismissed too easily, in a sort of "Oh, that's just GT..." manner.

Nothing meant beyond that.
I have to strongly agree with you there. I don't like much of the criticism that GT gets simply because it's not as superior as the Dragon Ball titles before it. Also on what's canon or not, I'd like to think that there's two different types of canon, anime canon & manga canon. I go more by what's canon towards the manga. So yeah...Cell.

I'd like to throw my hat into the 'canon' ring.

The best way to think about 'canon' in DragonBall is to use a tired structure (like Star Wars canon).

There are a series of 'levels'. Each level supersedes any information from a lower level that contradicts it. For instance, in the manga Super Saiyan hair is a deep gold colour, but in the anime it is nearly white - the manga's version is taken as "more canonical".

1. Kanzenban manga - re-edited, and fixed - better than original - by Toriyama himself.

2. tankobon manga - original work, but contains errors and omissions corrected in the Kanzenban.

3. Original Japanese Anime, based on manga - DragonBall, DragonBall Z, Trunks special - disregarding filler. This includes instances that are derived directly from the manga, but are changed somehow (like the SSj hair colour, Goku's gi colour, when Pilaf shows up, and the friggin week that was the Freeza fight).

4. Original Japanese Anime not based on manga, produced by Toei for the series - DB/DBZ filler, DragonBall GT, Bardock special, GT Special. This includes any animation made for the series, but not based on any direct manga counterpart. Like the Garlic Jr saga, the driving episode, Yamcha, Tenshinhan, Piccolo, and Krillin helping out at the Cell games.

5. Original Japanese DB/DBZ movies - produced by Toei, but not meant to 'fit' into the series' storyline.

6. Original Video Animation for video games, game shows, fire safety videos, commercials, etc. - produced by Toei, but absolutely not supposed to represent the events of the story in any way.

7. Games (video, card, board, etc) - nothing taken from any game-based mechanics or story should be taken as literal to the story.

--------
You'll notice that I specifically mentioned the original Japanese animation there, and no other country's dubs. Replications of the original animation and script should never be taken as canon. The only time a dub is ever taken as any kind of authority is when it is equivalent to the original animation.

I think that's pretty good

Oh, and Cell is the ultimate creation. No question.

t0ffe3m4n · Post by **t0ffe3m4n** » Fri Jun 16, 2006 7:50 pm

Duo wrote:And I don't really think Toriyama-sensei realized the atrocity (compared to DragonBall/Z) to follow when he "approved" GT.

On the contrary actually... Toriyama loved GT.

Olivier Hague · Post by **Olivier Hague** » Fri Jun 16, 2006 8:36 pm

t0ffe3m4n wrote:Toriyama loved GT.

Oh, I'm sure he said he loved it...

Sebastian (SB) · Post by **Sebastian (SB)** » Fri Jun 16, 2006 9:26 pm

desirecampbell wrote:
Sebastian (SB) wrote:
SSj Kaboom wrote:Well, my point was that I don't think GT should be considered so much of an "outsider" of the series as it often is. I mean, GT (like the movies and filler) is, like it or not, as much a part of the Dragonball world as anything else, but too often, it tends to be dismissed too easily, in a sort of "Oh, that's just GT..." manner.

Nothing meant beyond that.
I have to strongly agree with you there. I don't like much of the criticism that GT gets simply because it's not as superior as the Dragon Ball titles before it. Also on what's canon or not, I'd like to think that there's two different types of canon, anime canon & manga canon. I go more by what's canon towards the manga. So yeah...Cell.
I'd like to throw my hat into the 'canon' ring.

The best way to think about 'canon' in DragonBall is to use a tired structure (like Star Wars canon).

There are a series of 'levels'. Each level supersedes any information from a lower level that contradicts it. For instance, in the manga Super Saiyan hair is a deep gold colour, but in the anime it is nearly white - the manga's version is taken as "more canonical".

1. Kanzenban manga - re-edited, and fixed - better than original - by Toriyama himself.

2. tankobon manga - original work, but contains errors and omissions corrected in the Kanzenban.

3. Original Japanese Anime, based on manga - DragonBall, DragonBall Z, Trunks special - disregarding filler. This includes instances that are derived directly from the manga, but are changed somehow (like the SSj hair colour, Goku's gi colour, when Pilaf shows up, and the friggin week that was the Freeza fight).

4. Original Japanese Anime not based on manga, produced by Toei for the series - DB/DBZ filler, DragonBall GT, Bardock special, GT Special. This includes any animation made for the series, but not based on any direct manga counterpart. Like the Garlic Jr saga, the driving episode, Yamcha, Tenshinhan, Piccolo, and Krillin helping out at the Cell games.

5. Original Japanese DB/DBZ movies - produced by Toei, but not meant to 'fit' into the series' storyline.

6. Original Video Animation for video games, game shows, fire safety videos, commercials, etc. - produced by Toei, but absolutely not supposed to represent the events of the story in any way.

7. Games (video, card, board, etc) - nothing taken from any game-based mechanics or story should be taken as literal to the story.

--------
You'll notice that I specifically mentioned the original Japanese animation there, and no other country's dubs. Replications of the original animation and script should never be taken as canon. The only time a dub is ever taken as any kind of authority is when it is equivalent to the original animation.

I think that's pretty good
Oh, and Cell is the ultimate creation. No question.

That's actually a pretty good discription there Desire & it makes perfect sense, but again I'd like to think that there's two seperate canons. But yes, the manga is more "canonical" & the definite truth of the "Dragon World" no matter what.

Majin Cell · Post by **Majin Cell** » Fri Jun 16, 2006 9:28 pm

I have always been under the impression that Mr.Toriyamas attitude towards GT was a "Meh it's ok" type attitude. I remember reading an article on a site about GT that said that was Mr.Toriyamas opinion on GT when asked what he thought of the series in an interview in Japan. Although to be honest i dont know for sure if what i read was true so some may read that with a grain of salt.

BlueSky · Post by **Kaboom** » Fri Jun 16, 2006 10:14 pm

Oh, boy...

I've created a monster.