"Power levels" from the Daizenshuu

[DevilsAlwaysCry]

Wow... I never thought Goku and Piccolo were that weak when they fought Raditz.

Also... someone care to explain how Goku jumped from 900,000 to 3,000,000 on Namek pre-Super Saiyan?

900,000? I guess you are multiplying 90,000 buy Kaioken x10. I believe the power up was due to his flirt with death when his body was in shreads during the whole Ginyu body switching fight. And why didn't you think Son Goku's and Piccolo's battle powers were so low when they were stated in not only the manga, but the anime too?

But he wasn't even hurt that badly. Vegeta was hurt worse and was stronger to begin with, yet got a smaller increase.

That is debatable. I mean Son Goku got switched out of his own body! That is harsh to endure. I am also not sure if Vegeta was stronger to begin with either. If Son Goku did use Kaioken x10, his power might have surpassed Vegeta's (remember Vegeta's power didnt surpass Piccolo's untill Kuririn wounded him).

[desirecampbell]

It is also on this page. I think it says on the link "original page" and it's maybe the 5th thing posted.

The image of the Japanese version is of the second page, Raditz is on the first.

If anyone has the original, I'm sure we'd all appriciate a scan

[Rocketman]

That is debatable. I mean Son Goku got switched out of his own body! That is harsh to endure. I am also not sure if Vegeta was stronger to begin with either. If Son Goku did use Kaioken x10, his power might have surpassed Vegeta's (remember Vegeta's power didnt surpass Piccolo's untill Kuririn wounded him).

But Goku wasn't in danger of dying from having his body switched. Well, he was from the wound Ginyu gave himself, but not from the actual technique. Remember, the increase comes from "facing and overcoming death". And even after Vegeta pounded Goku's body, he wasn't hurt too badly. No bones were broken, for example. His injuries on Earth were far worse.

As for the second part, I agree with what you're saying, but not with the Daizenshuu says.

I think it was more like this:

Goku: 90,000 -zenkai-> 300,000 -KKx10-> 3,000,000
Vegeta: 40,000 -sleepless-> 20,000 -zenkai+rest-> 400,000 -zenkai-> 2,000,000

[DevilsAlwaysCry]

That is debatable. I mean Son Goku got switched out of his own body! That is harsh to endure. I am also not sure if Vegeta was stronger to begin with either. If Son Goku did use Kaioken x10, his power might have surpassed Vegeta's (remember Vegeta's power didnt surpass Piccolo's untill Kuririn wounded him).

But Goku wasn't in danger of dying from having his body switched. Well, he was from the wound Ginyu gave himself, but not from the actual technique. Remember, the increase comes from "facing and overcoming death". And even after Vegeta pounded Goku's body, he wasn't hurt too badly. No bones were broken, for example. His injuries on Earth were far worse.

As for the second part, I agree with what you're saying, but not with the Daizenshuu says.

I think it was more like this:

Goku: 90,000 -zenkai-> 300,000 -KKx10-> 3,000,000
Vegeta: 40,000 -sleepless-> 20,000 -zenkai+rest-> 400,000 -zenkai-> 2,000,000

His energy was 0 though after all that. His body was taxed by the misuse from Ginyu. I mean what Ginyu did to that body could be the equivalent of using large amounts of pain killers to numb intense pain (so that you can't feel the pain) while continue to over work the body (which causes harm in the end). I don't know if he had broken bones or not, but he needed people to carry him to the healing tank. Also, you could say that since Son Goku was supposed to be the legendary Super Saiya-jin, his power up was much larger (that would also show just how special Son Goku is). This is all interpertation by me and I do not say it is fact.

I dont understand what you ment by your power chart down there unless you disagree with the Daizenshuu, then it makes more sense.

[Onikage725]

I think anyone who wants to hold to the Daizenshuu list as 100% infallible needs to remember they list Raditz as 1,500. Considering that it's plainly stated the Saibaimen are 1,200 and the same strength as Raditz, that sounds to me like a typo on there part.

[veshira]

I think anyone who wants to hold to the Daizenshuu list as 100% infallible needs to remember they list Raditz as 1,500. Considering that it's plainly stated the Saibaimen are 1,200 and the same strength as Raditz, that sounds to me like a typo on there part.

Well, they're not exactly the same strength, but very close to it. Raditz would have a bit of trouble defeating a Saibaman. In my opinion, he'd have to be at least a little stronger than one to survive a fight with one. Besides, the Saibaman makes up for the 300 powerlevel difference with an acid oozing head that it can just slit open, and kamikaze. (Gah, I justed typed that as "kagekaze" and couldn't think of the actual word for a while. Damn. =_=; )

At least, that's my opinion.

[Onikage725]

Yamcha was 1480, Ten 1830, and it was considered suprising that they could roll with the Saibaimen. Nappa didn't compare that either of them to Raditz. He specifically stated the Saibaimen at 1200 and added that it was the same strength as Raditz.

[Duo]

To be specific, Nappa actually said "Over 1,200". Just like Son Goku was stated to be "Over 8,000" when he fought Nappa. Most people seem to ignore the "Over" part.

[Xyex]

His energy was 0 though after all that. His body was taxed by the misuse from Ginyu. I mean what Ginyu did to that body could be the equivalent of using large amounts of pain killers to numb intense pain (so that you can't feel the pain) while continue to over work the body (which causes harm in the end). I don't know if he had broken bones or not, but he needed people to carry him to the healing tank. Also, you could say that since Son Goku was supposed to be the legendary Super Saiya-jin, his power up was much larger (that would also show just how special Son Goku is). This is all interpertation by me and I do not say it is fact.

If his energy was 0 he'd have been dead. Also, having a weakened PL doesn't equal being severly injured. We don't know how much energy Ginyu uses when he body switches and using up a lot of energy will make you weak but it wont harm you, so no Zenkai from that.

Anyway, Goku didn't take nearly as much of a pounding there as he did in the Vegeta fight so... ya. 90,000 to 3,000,000 is absurd. I'm with Rocket man, Goku's power was probably around 300,000 after that, not 3,000,000

[Onikage725]

To be specific, Nappa actually said "Over 1,200". Just like Son Goku was stated to be "Over 8,000" when he fought Nappa. Most people seem to ignore the "Over" part.

Don't you think if the PL was 1500, he would have said 1500? What sense does it make to round 1500 donw to 1200? People on the other side of the camp also ignore the fact that the next line was "Equal to Raditz, every one of them!"

And yet the Daiz' lists two distinctly different PL's for the Saibaimen and Raditz. This is what we either call a typo, or an inconsistency from a lower level of canon.

[Duo]

To be specific, Nappa actually said "Over 1,200". Just like Son Goku was stated to be "Over 8,000" when he fought Nappa. Most people seem to ignore the "Over" part.

Don't you think if the PL was 1500, he would have said 1500? What sense does it make to round 1500 donw to 1200? People on the other side of the camp also ignore the fact that the next line was "Equal to Raditz, every one of them!"

And yet the Daiz' lists two distinctly different PL's for the Saibaimen and Raditz. This is what we either call a typo, or an inconsistency from a lower level of canon.

Get off the fricken train you jumped on. I didn't argue against your point at all, I was just pointing a detail out for the heck of it. I happen to think the Daiz listing for the Saibaman and Raditz are both wrong, and that they both have levels between 1300 - 1400.

But honestly, I don't really care. Zealous power level discussion tends to cheapen the story, because so many people can't handle it like adults.

[Drunken Master]

Does the original Daizenshuu list Raditz at 1,500? That's what I'm trying to figure out. I need scans! And no, no one has shown a scan of that version yet, but like desirecampbell stated, it would greatly appreciated.

And power levels are stupid. Nappa had to have been more than 4,000 anyhow.

[DevilsAlwaysCry]

His energy was 0 though after all that. His body was taxed by the misuse from Ginyu. I mean what Ginyu did to that body could be the equivalent of using large amounts of pain killers to numb intense pain (so that you can't feel the pain) while continue to over work the body (which causes harm in the end). I don't know if he had broken bones or not, but he needed people to carry him to the healing tank. Also, you could say that since Son Goku was supposed to be the legendary Super Saiya-jin, his power up was much larger (that would also show just how special Son Goku is). This is all interpertation by me and I do not say it is fact.

If his energy was 0 he'd have been dead. Also, having a weakened PL doesn't equal being severly injured. We don't know how much energy Ginyu uses when he body switches and using up a lot of energy will make you weak but it wont harm you, so no Zenkai from that.

Anyway, Goku didn't take nearly as much of a pounding there as he did in the Vegeta fight so... ya. 90,000 to 3,000,000 is absurd. I'm with Rocket man, Goku's power was probably around 300,000 after that, not 3,000,000

Re-read the 1st two things I put in bold and tell me that doesn't contradict itself.

About Vegeta taking heavier damage then Son Goku, that is debatable. In my opinion since Son Goku was fighting at a higher level then when Vegeta (in terms of intensity and giving it his all) lowered his strength so that Kuririn could harm him, it would make more since for him to recieve a larger power-up. Also, you can't really debate it cause that is how it happened. Son Goku did recieve a larger power-up then Vegeta, you can't argue that. That is how it went down in the manga/anime so no matter how illogical you may think it is, that's how it happened.

Also, the ony battle power we can go by is in the daizenshuu. That is as close as we can come to "official". You don't have to agree with it, but saying Son Goku's battle power was 300,000 because it makes more sense just seems like an excuse.

[Dayspring]

Does the original Daizenshuu list Raditz at 1,500? That's what I'm trying to figure out. I need scans! And no, no one has shown a scan of that version yet, but like desirecampbell stated, it would greatly appreciated.

And power levels are stupid. Nappa had to have been more than 4,000 anyhow.

The Japanese version of the PL section made a typo for Radditz. In the manga, anime and even two other entries in that same very daizenshuu (his bio and the Saibamen's bio) list his PL to be 1,200.

And technically even the daizenshuu listed Nappa above 4k. His offiicial PL is "in the 4,000s," meaning anywhere from 4,001 to 4,999. Not much of a believable difference, but at least it's bigger than 4k.

[Folken-sama]

The "1500" was in the original Daizenshû (no typo in the French translation, except the hilarious "Cyberman" that is corrected in other sections).

To be precise, the Saibaimen, who are 1200, were said to be "equal to low class Saiyajin like Raditz", in their bio.

And technically even the daizenshuu listed Nappa above 4k. His offiicial PL is "in the 4,000s," meaning anywhere from 4,001 to 4,999. Not much of a believable difference, but at least it's bigger than 4k.

My theory is that this 4000 is only his PL against Piccolo, Gohan, etc. The picture of Nappa above the "4000" PL is taken from the chapters when he is still fighting Piccolo.
When Gokû arrives, at first Nappa can't do anything (still 4000), then he powers up (it's in the manga, he says he's "going to show his true power") and he can resist more...He probably went between 5000 and 6000 at that moment, but the Daizenshû doesn't tell that precise number.

Concerning Gokû at 3 millions, except because people long believed the old typos from Greg Werner, I can't see why it would be "absurd".

Vegeta, with 4 Zenkai Power Ups and a nap, went from 18,000 to ~2 millions (or even more).
So why couldn't Gokû, with 5 ZPU and a x100 gravity training, go from 8,000 to 3 millions ?

Vegeta, going from ~250,000 to ~2 millions with one ZPU is already irrealistic enough (and he only suffered a Ki blast from Krilin, barely over 20,000), but it's in the manga, so it is undisputable.
So why the same kind of power up, applied to Gokû, would suddenly seem "absurd" and be discarded, only because it's from the Daizenshû ?

[Dayspring]

And technically even the daizenshuu listed Nappa above 4k. His offiicial PL is "in the 4,000s," meaning anywhere from 4,001 to 4,999. Not much of a believable difference, but at least it's bigger than 4k.

My theory is that this 4000 is only his PL against Piccolo, Gohan, etc. The picture of Nappa above the "4000" PL is taken from the chapters when he is still fighting Piccolo.
When Gokû arrives, at first Nappa can't do anything (still 4000), then he powers up (it's in the manga, he says he's "going to show his true power") and he can resist more...He probably went between 5000 and 6000 at that moment, but the Daizenshû doesn't tell that precise number.

I agree. He powers up how many times between his arrival on Earth and by the time Goku defeats him? 3? 4?

Concerning Gokû at 3 millions, except because people long believed the old typos from Greg Werner, I can't see why it would be "absurb".

Vegeta, with 4 Zenkai Power Ups and a nap, went to 18,000 to ~2 millions (or even more).
So why couldn't Gokû, with 5 ZPU and a x100 gravity training, go from 8,000 to 3 millions ?

Vegeta, going from ~250,000 to ~2 millions with one ZPU is already irrealistic enough (and he only suffered a Ki blast from Krilin, barely over 20,000), but it's in the manga, so it is undisputable.
So why the same kind of power up, applied to Gokû, would suddenly seem "absurd" and be discarded, only because it's from the Daizenshû ?

I totally agree. There are many things we don't know about the healing induced power ups. For all we know they can be "trained" like people can train other aspects of themselves, like how Piccolo is a speed demon (ha. punny), and Nappa is brute strength.

Another thing we have to realize about the difference in boosts is that Goku and Vegeta, despite being our only examples, are by far the worst ones we can be exposed too. Vegeta is the Super Elite of all Saiyans, surpassing the norm by 16,800 when we first see him. That there discounts him from what constitues a typical boost. Meanwhile Goku is even more of a freak of nature, starting among the weakest in the universe and finishing the strongest. Everything about his existence defies typical Saiyan abilities, so why should these boosts be any different?

[Drunken Master]

Does the original Daizenshuu list Raditz at 1,500? That's what I'm trying to figure out. I need scans! And no, no one has shown a scan of that version yet, but like desirecampbell stated, it would greatly appreciated.

And power levels are stupid. Nappa had to have been more than 4,000 anyhow.

The Japanese version of the PL section made a typo for Radditz. In the manga, anime and even two other entries in that same very daizenshuu (his bio and the Saibamen's bio) list his PL to be 1,200.

And technically even the daizenshuu listed Nappa above 4k. His offiicial PL is "in the 4,000s," meaning anywhere from 4,001 to 4,999. Not much of a believable difference, but at least it's bigger than 4k.

Thank you very much.

[Onikage725]

Get off the fricken train you jumped on. I didn't argue against your point at all, I was just pointing a detail out for the heck of it. I happen to think the Daiz listing for the Saibaman and Raditz are both wrong, and that they both have levels between 1300 - 1400.

But honestly, I don't really care. Zealous power level discussion tends to cheapen the story, because so many people can't handle it like adults.

Did I do something to you? Seriously, do you have a problem with me that I should know about? This is the second time you've jumped down my throat when I wasn't in any way attacking you. The first time on another topic I wasn't even replying to you, and this time you offered a counterpoint to evidence I listed, so I offered further evidence. That's all. If I in some way offended you without realizing it, please PM and tell me how.

[Onikage725]

My theory is that this 4000 is only his PL against Piccolo, Gohan, etc. The picture of Nappa above the "4000" PL is taken from the chapters when he is still fighting Piccolo.
When Gokû arrives, at first Nappa can't do anything (still 4000), then he powers up (it's in the manga, he says he's "going to show his true power") and he can resist more...He probably went between 5000 and 6000 at that moment, but the Daizenshû doesn't tell that precise number.

While that does make the most sense, there's a problem too. Something that isn't quite reconciled between what we see and what we're told- The villains at that point can't supress power levels. Goku showing 5,000 and then over 8,000 is a sign that he supressed his power. With the space pirates it seems more like they wear there badge on their sleeve, so to speak, and charging up just adds to their available power. If Nappa clocks at 4,000 at one point (according to the books), it doesn't seem likely that a charge would raise his power level, since hs doesn't know how to supress. More likely he was just adding to his currently available reserves. The easiest way I can think of to illustrate that is from the R. Talsorian RPG (no I'm not trying to label it a reliable source, just use one of their game mechanics to illustrate a point): Characters have a power level, which is their maximum power. Then they have a power pool, which is available power. When they charge up, power is added to the power pool, but they can't charge up beyond their power level, or "spend" more points than there power level.

Vegeta, with 4 Zenkai Power Ups and a nap, went from 18,000 to ~2 millions (or even more).
So why couldn't Gokû, with 5 ZPU and a x100 gravity training, go from 8,000 to 3 millions ?

Keep in mind that most of those ZPU's don't need to be worried about, as we have a verifiable 90,000 on Goku before that final ZPU. With that in mind it brings the comparison to Vegeta going 250,000 (or so) to 2 mil (again, estimate) with one ZPU to Goku going 90,000 - 3 mil. I should offer that if raising the "Daizenshuu typo" question and betting on 300,000, it's better to compare Vegeta when he was somewhere above Jiisu in the high tens of thousands to that 250,000 that for w/e reason gave him more power (as that would go in line with a 90,000-300,000 jump).

A side note, if you've ever played Chou Saiya Densetsu (the Super Famicom RPG), they go with that. Again, not saying this is at all canon, just offering food for thought. When you get control of Goku for the final battle, he's power is nothing compared to Piccolo and Vegeta (who jockey for 1st and 2nd depending on certain actions), or even the other characters if you take them to the highest level. But when you get to the fight, if you have a decent level ki card and use it to activate Kaioken, that's when he becomes notable.

[The Chibi Kiriyama]

I don't see why most have such a hard time coming to grips with the power Goku had. Vegeta went in one zenkai from being pummeled around by Reacoom to grappling with Freeza on a semi-equal plane. And in reality, when you look at it Goku was at 850 to 900 thousand after his 10G training. 180 thousand was, as Goku states, only the normal Kaio-ken and only for starters. Theoretically, he would have been close to a million at the extent he could perform the Kaio-ken to: Kaio-ken times ten. And that's before his zenkai. With his zenkai he was as strong as Freeza without having to perform the Kaio-ken. 3 million is a rather accurate estimate. And 50 fold for his Super Saiyan state isn't completely out there. Goku states for fact that the Kaio-ken times 20 increases his power 20 fold. The Super Saiyan state makes the Kaio-ken times 20 look like child's play.

Really, even though the Daizenshuu is somewhat inaccurate in literal amounts, the ranges are not so preposterous.