How Can Fans Compare This To DB/DBZ With A Straight Face?

[namekiansaiyan]

The reason Super is the way it is is because it's only aimed at children (it airs at 9:00 AM on Sunday's) and is made to sell merchandise.

DB & Z on the other hand were also aimed at children but unlike Super, they aired on Wednesday evenings at 7:00 PM so Toei had to put more effort into them to keep potential older viewers interested and unlike Super, it was made to sell the manga so the writing was handled a lot better cause they were selling a story, not toys.

Toriyama surely does not see it as a merchandise seller so does what he wants. The people we see complaining are not japanese and dragon ball super would not be considered for children by people outside Japan. Most people outside Japan consider anime to be teen+. Dragon Ball Super is on late at night in the USA and is too violent for kids tv in the UK so the UK gets nothing at all until eventually the DVDs/Blu-rays are released.

[sintzu]

Super often feel like it exist just to give fans ideas they always wanted.

When the DB room was announced they said they were interested in seeing what the international fans wanted as well so that's exactly what they're doing.

Dragon Ball Super is on late at night in the USA and is too violent for kids tv in the UK.

That's because the people in those countries are so politically correct they're afraid of their own shadows.

[julianix]

Goku black and Zamasu where a solid addition.. But outside of that there's absolutely nothing super does better than dbz. The story, character development, animation, techniques,villains, comedy etc.

Dbs is the Star wars equivalent of Rebels. Basically it's cool to watch but not to be taken seriously.

[Shinda Forever]

First of all, Dragon ball super is much better than DBGT. You can't even compare both except animation. Yeah overall, db dbz animation was much better than the current one and that is shocking.
They added interesting characters like Zamasu and Hitto and a good amount of techniques while in dbz everything was about raw power, on the other hand, in db super, tactics and abilities matter, that is a big plus for me. Hitto should have been more present in the story since he is a great character and it would be awesome to see him fight Goku Black or Zamasu. In my opinion, the main problem in the zamasu arc was that only saiyajins fought among the heroes and that was very boring.
The exhibition fights were very cool, but they replaced Vegeta with Gohan. It was a missed opportunity to use weaker characters with less screen time.

[Kanassa]

Goku black and Zamasu where a solid addition.. But outside of that there's absolutely nothing super does better than dbz. The story, character development,

The character development was nothing to write home about in Z, aside from Buu and maybe Piccolo, it was rather poor.

[buutenks]

I expected opinions on super to be similar to mine for long time fans, but I'm seeing that many see Super as comparable to DB/DBZ, and most say it's better than GT.

I took a break from it last year after starting the champa saga, but over the past few days I've watched up until the end of future trunks arc.

Here are some of my thoughts/opinions on what I dislike about Super overall:

Comedy: Many say that super tries to be funnier like dragonball, except it goes about it in the wrong way imo. Dragonball accentuated the humorous traits in characters to make it funnier. For example, Roshi was much more perverted in DB compared to DBZ. And goku was more naive and often did funny things because he didn't know any better. But they kept everything believable for the characters. You would never see someone serious like Tien or King piccolo do something that was really out of character in order to be funny. In contrast, DBS does this all the time. We have piccolo acting as a babysitter/martha stewart, vegeta wimpering and cowering in subservience during the first appearance of Beerus, Goku acting unbelievably stupid even for him, etc. Also, many of the jokes are remedial and sort of damage the reputation of certain characters. For example, calling upon the divine dragon by saying "lemon pleasy" at the end of the summoning speech, as well as the king of all saiyans being asked to get a fluffy pillow for Freeza. This stuff happens all of the time in Super.

Animation: The animation quality is still just absolutely terrible. There isn't much to be said here because it obvious. It's just sad that the animation from 30 years ago was much better. Some things that really bug me, though, are how they don't even put in effort to maintain consistency. For example, Krillin's height fluctuates a 1-2 feet given the episode or scene he's in. Sometimes his eye level is at 18's crotch (meaning he'd be about 3'6") and others he's a bit taller. In some scenes where he sits in a chair, his feet don't extend past the seat, which would mean he is about the size of a 4 year old. This happens with other characters too, such as Supreme Kai.

The other thing is the character design. There just isn't much creativity or effort going on anymore. The champa tournament roster consisted of characters that any of us at 10 years old could have drawn on a whim. Such as generic childish robot man, mean winnie the pooh, and weird looking vegeta jr guy. It was also sad that after all these years we now know the strongest guy in the entire reality -- the god of everything -- is little more than a football turned sideways with a smiley face on it.

Power Level Problems: The powerlevel problems are worse than ever this time around. Characters like Master Roshi taking on Raditz-level Frieza minions and characters base forms being overpowered, etc. If you haven't seen the trunks arc yet then ignore this next part: spoilers: [spoiler]For example, Trunks manages to keep up with Goku black in SSJ2 form despite Goku and Vegeta at SSJG having tons of trouble. No matter how much strength Trunks has, it's just simply impossible for him to match black goku in SSJ2 (absent maybe something like Tiens special move against Imperfect Cell). We all saw the difference between SSJ3 Goku and Beerus, then the improvement when Goku went SSJG against Beerus. The point is, the difference between SSJ2 - Black is too enormous.[/spoiler] They really should just alter the story and circumstances to make it believable, instead it's like they choose what they want to happen, and with what characters first, and then force them to fit into that role even if it doesn't make any sense.

Another thing is techniques being used without sticking to any of the rules. Again, spoilers in the trunks saga: [spoiler]We're supposed to believe that the evil containment wave created by master roshi's master (power level <200) will be able to contain not only a super powerful being, but a god? And then trunks learns it perfectly in 3-4 minutes while Bulma distracts Zamasu, when it just took goku assumably much, much longer with master roshi watching and commenting along the way? Furthermore, that the containment wave is supposed to kill the user after it works, which was overlooked here. And even if dying is from significant ki drain, surely the difference between SSJ2 and a god would warrant enough of a ki drain for death? Also, trunk's spirit sword not only came out of nowhere, but it gathered energy way too fast. It also wouldn't have even had enough energy given that the entire planet was pretty much devoid of life.[/spoiler]

Lackluster Battles: The battles don't really pump you up anymore. Considering how powerful the character now are, having battles comparable to DBZ only makes sense. Instead, everything feels rushed and underwhelming; very 1-dimensional. The ki blasts all kind of look the same; large beam or scatter shot. There's very little use of planning, charging, or manipulating the beam to get an edge on the enemy like in DBZ. The punches and kicks are underwhelming, mostly. A lot of the movements and animation on the battles are poor. There was a scene in particular where trunks was fighting Deborah in a flash back that really got to me; he literally did a slow left slash, right slash, and 360 degree spin that looked like something from the puppet show interpretation of the Cell games we got of how hercule beat cell in DBZ. Also, transformations are underwhelming now, often rushed and don't really have that powerful feel to them anymore.

These next points might be more subjective, but some other things that bug me are the lack of creativity for transformations. Like just adding blue hair or red hair (super saiyan rose, terrible name). Also, the fact that all the characters are significantly smaller now; I really liked how muscular the characters looked in DBZ. Furthermore, the women are all flat and boyish looking, and bulmas mother went from seemingly never ending busty milf to generic depends underwear commercial grandma. Growing up with roided looking monkey men and fertile female characters in a cartoon is healthy for young boys, imo.

Anyway, IMO the show doesn't really do anything at all right. When one thing gets a little better something else gets a little worse. The only way this show makes sense to me is to see it as a spin-off of DBZ or a parody, almost like a really good fan-made attempt that can't figure out what it's really going for. Someone mentioned to me once that his theory is that Toriyama is just trolling all of us at this point, and to me, it certainly seems like it.

Besides the fact that this is Dragonball (so we instantly like it to some extent), and comparing it to DB, DBZ, and even GT based on what those shows did well for the series, what is there to like about this show? And how can anyone with a straight face, in any way, compare it to the previous shows?

I think you r mixing up DB with DBZ. In DBZ all was raw power and ki beams and ki blasts. The changing the path of ki blast and such happened in DB and vs Raditz. Beyond that was never seen again.

Super is miles better than GT. And the Buu saga had stellar animation. Cell, android, Namek sagas had from very good to crap animation, similar to Super.

As for the fights. Hit vs Goku was awesome, 80% of FT arc fights were awesome. Similar to how Freeza vs Goku was awesome and Cell vs Goku and vs Gohan were awesome.

[Asura]

I don't get why people get so bent out of shape about this when in Dragon Ball, Kid Goku learned the Kamehameha, his signature technique and an amazing ability in-universe at the time that took Roshi 50 years to master, after seeing Roshi do it once. No instruction or anything. He just tried it once and it worked perfectly. Similarly, he learned the Mafuba with no trouble at all. Could pull the technique off the first time he tried it. He spent the night practicing his aim for the sake of a joke. Him harassing Turtle like that was funny. And it's not like Trunks figured it out on his own. He even tried that and made an ass of himself until Bulma remembered that she had a video of Piccolo (a teacher) demonstrating and explaining how it worked. The only difference is that he had someone hold the jar when he did it and stuck the landing.

Your argument is a bit flawed, and here's why. Kid Goku was able to pull off a Kamehameha after only seeing Roshi do it once. But his Kamehameha was weak, extremely small, and nowhere near the power of Roshi's. It took Goku a lot of training until he could use the kamehameha as effectively as Roshi did. Not only that, Goku saw Roshi do it. Trunks has never seen Goku create the genki dama for example, so how would he even know how to do it if he wasn't taught it, and had never seen it before?

It also goes back to the Mafuba. Goku trains for an entire night until he's able to do it right, and nowhere is it ever implied he practiced for the night as a "joke". That's a nonsense excuse that has absolutely no basis. You also say that Goku learned the Mafuba with no trouble and pulled it off on his first try. You should re-watch the episode again, since that didn't happen. Goku completely misses his first try and sends Turtle flying across the ocean, almost into a mountain. He then misses a second time after that and sends Turtle into the water. We don't see Goku actually nail the Mafuba until morning. Trunks sees Piccolo's instructional video once, and is now a master at it. Again, Kid Goku was able to copy someone too, but his version was obviously way weaker until he practiced and trained it, Trunks is somehow a born natural and able to nail that shit no problemo.

[julianix]

Goku black and Zamasu where a solid addition.. But outside of that there's absolutely nothing super does better than dbz. The story, character development,

The character development was nothing to write home about in Z, aside from Buu and maybe Piccolo, it was rather poor.

What about Vegeta? Started off as a heartless villain only to find out his backstory and kind of understand his side of things. By the Namek saga he had one of the all time greatest moments in db history. Later on he developed into Gokus rival while being relatively good. But he was never truly good. The little things matter to me when it comes to character development. In the Buu saga when Goku ran out of power and fell to the ground Vegeta ran to his aid and was genuinely worried for his friend. Which is what it developed into.

Now in super hes just a grumpy old man. I don't see the Prince of all saiyans. And that's fine but thats not the Vegeta at the end of Z.

[DBZAOTA482]

Goku black and Zamasu where a solid addition.. But outside of that there's absolutely nothing super does better than dbz. The story, character development,

The character development was nothing to write home about in Z, aside from Buu and maybe Piccolo, it was rather poor.

Did you just now diss Vegeta's character development? Are you sure you wanna go to war now?

[Shinda Forever]

Goku black and Zamasu where a solid addition.. But outside of that there's absolutely nothing super does better than dbz. The story, character development,

The character development was nothing to write home about in Z, aside from Buu and maybe Piccolo, it was rather poor.

That's true.

[Kanassa]

Goku black and Zamasu where a solid addition.. But outside of that there's absolutely nothing super does better than dbz. The story, character development,

The character development was nothing to write home about in Z, aside from Buu and maybe Piccolo, it was rather poor.

Did you just now diss Vegeta's character development? Are you sure you wanna go to war now?

Of course, Vegeta's character development is only development in the sense of ''He's different for some reason'' and most of the time feel like an after thought. As if Toriyama suddenly thought "Oh, yeah, Vegeta's supposed to care now".

[sintzu]

Trunks is somehow a born natural and able to nail that shit no problemo.

And that's why he went from a fan favorite to "we don't want to see him ever again" character. He can make up killing techniques out of nowhere, he can learn them from just seeing them once & he can fight 2 being stronger than SsjB with just a Dabura level of power.

I can't wait to see what he'll get when he's brought back in a later arc.

The character development was nothing to write home about in Z, aside from Buu and maybe Piccolo, it was rather poor.

Did you just now diss Vegeta's character development? Are you sure you wanna go to war now?

Dissing what the original did is the only way to justify what Super does.

[Kanassa]

Dissing what the original did is the only way to justify what Super does.

Not really, I'm not dissing the original for Super's sake, I'm dissing the original because I keep hearing about Vegeta's development and can only scratch my head at it. Look to Buu, he's the one with great development worthy of example!

Super's character development is only decent. I enjoy the stages the character's are at (Especially Vegeta), but what's within that development didn't really occur in Super. I enjoy the development of Beerus, Hit and Zamasu, but they're nothing great. They're just decent.

[cheddarsword]

hahahaha!

it's easy to compare it to Z with a straight face! so long as i'm not looking at vermoud, captain ginyu and buu!

i honestly feel like the character development is quite good and rather accurate. as in, it makes sense.

as for animation, i do rather enjoy the new fights. they're more intense than the old DBZ. the problem for me comes from the fact that the moments between fights seem to drag at times. for instance, watch buu's fight in the exhibition match, and then watch goku vs. toppo. you'll see what i mean. the buu match is done well, whereas goku vs. toppo takes it's time to start and has a lengthy break in action, which only serves to annoy the Dabura out of me.

of course, DBZ had this too and to be fair, it's more of an anime thing, and as such, is a moot point.

and as for new characters... hit. god i love what they did there. it's like they took a power that they just thought would be difficult to beat. then, after they get waist deep in writing for this guy, they realize that he's way too OP. and then... they just roll with it instead of backing out of it. and i applaud them for it.

and i gotta say... vados and marcaritta... so much yes... and there's a few gods of destruction (goddesses of destruction?) that i have eyes for too. but when it comes to straight up badass factor... yeah, beerus. i know he technicaly originated in Z (it's called Dragon Ball Z: Battle of Gods after all), but still, among the destroyers, he's still my favorite.

so yeah. i'm pleased with super so far and i compare it favorably to Z.

but DBZA outranks all.

[sintzu]

I keep hearing about Vegeta's development and can only scratch my head at it. Look to Buu, he's the one with great development worthy of example!

Now I'm scratching my head, how is Buu's better than Vegeta's ? Vegeta goes from a piece of **** not worth living to someone who gave his life for earth and his family and we saw him slowly change across 4 long arcs.

Buu on the other hand didn't really change that much. the only difference is that he doesn't kill because Satan told him not to. he's still the same character who doesn't know right from wrong and could go back to killing if someone told him to.

[Asura]

The character development was nothing to write home about in Z, aside from Buu and maybe Piccolo, it was rather poor.

Did you just now diss Vegeta's character development? Are you sure you wanna go to war now?

Of course, Vegeta's character development is only development in the sense of ''He's different for some reason'' and most of the time feel like an after thought. As if Toriyama suddenly thought "Oh, yeah, Vegeta's supposed to care now".

What? What do you mean "he's different for some reason"? How can you not understand why and what makes Vegeta change? It's incredibly obvious, and you get all you need to know out of the Majin Vegeta vs Goku fight where he specifically states why and how he's changed. Vegeta's change throughout Z is one of the most obvious and well-developed out of any character in the entire series (to which Super continues), so for someone to say they don't understand why Vegeta's changed, I recommend re-watching the show/reading the manga.

[Kanassa]

I keep hearing about Vegeta's development and can only scratch my head at it. Look to Buu, he's the one with great development worthy of example!

Now I'm scratching my head, how is Buu's better than Vegeta's ? Vegeta goes from a piece of **** not worth living to someone who gave his life for earth and his family and we saw him slowly change across 4 long arcs.

Buu on the other hand didn't really change that much. the only difference is that he doesn't kill because Satan told him not to. he's still the same character who doesn't know right from wrong and could go back to killing if someone told him to.

For Vegeta, we only see the outcome. He changes, yes, but that's all. For Buu we see the process of his change, we see how he was affect by Mr Satan, making it all the more triumphant when he swears to stop killing. When Vegeta charges Cell for killing Trunks, all I'm thinking is "Why the fuck do you care?!".

We don't see him slowly change, we never witness him changing. All the interesting part of good development happen off screen for Vegeta.

[sintzu]

For Vegeta, we only see the outcome. He changes, yes, but that's all. For Buu we see the process of his change, we see how he was affect by Mr Satan, making it all the more triumphant when he swears to stop killing. When Vegeta charges Cell for killing Trunks, all I'm thinking is "Why the fuck do you care?!".

We don't see him slowly change, we never witness him changing. All the interesting part of good development happen off screen for Vegeta.

You need to re-watch Kai or re-read the manga again.

I honestly feel like the character development is quite good and rather accurate. as in, it makes sense.

I do rather enjoy the new fights. they're more intense than the old DBZ.

This is a great example of how this fan base's quality standards have dropped since Super started.

[TheMikado]

I keep hearing about Vegeta's development and can only scratch my head at it. Look to Buu, he's the one with great development worthy of example!

Now I'm scratching my head, how is Buu's better than Vegeta's ? Vegeta goes from a piece of **** not worth living to someone who gave his life for earth and his family and we saw him slowly change across 4 long arcs.

Buu on the other hand didn't really change that much. the only difference is that he doesn't kill because Satan told him not to. he's still the same character who doesn't know right from wrong and could go back to killing if someone told him to.

For Vegeta, we only see the outcome. He changes, yes, but that's all. For Buu we see the process of his change, we see how he was affect by Mr Satan, making it all the more triumphant when he swears to stop killing. When Vegeta charges Cell for killing Trunks, all I'm thinking is "Why the fuck do you care?!".

We don't see him slowly change, we never witness him changing. All the interesting part of good development happen off screen for Vegeta.

Yikes? are these serious posts?

First and foremost, as Toriyama states it. Royal saiyans seem to be the only ones who care about family ties due to elitism and "royal blood". Vegeta also acknowledges a certain level of pride, its a very common aspect of a father son relationship where they often vicariously live through the child and see them as an extension of themselves. I won't address the actual original reasons of Vegeta's but even if he rages over his son's death this is a perfectly normal response. You see similar triggers in parents who may have abandoned or not be as decent of a parent in the past and a tramatic experience causes a snap, shoot you hear about kids who's parents abandon them and the suddenly cry about hearing or seeing the death of their parent which they have little ties too. Its a very complex emotion of distance and parental instinct. Furthermore and more importantly, Vegeta IS NOT one dimensional. He has his pride, he has his own goals, he has his own interests and sometimes, JUST LIKE A REAL PERSON they come in conflict with each other. Example, Vegeta is driven and admits that Goku surpassing him is a source of internal obsession. Having a family or not is not connected to this. Vegeta even assumed that this may have been the source of Goku's strength and it wasn't. Getting possessed by Babidi, a person who sought to destroy the universe was in direct opposition to his desire to protect his family. He made a selfish choice which he regretted due to his own internal conflict with pride. It's so incredibly multi-layered and was amazingly well presented. And somehow you want to compare this kind of internal conflict which ultimately leads to his own redemption and self sacrifice to.... Buu????? Well ok then.

[sintzu]

Somehow you want to compare this kind of internal conflict which ultimately leads to his own redemption and self sacrifice to.... Buu?????

I'll say it again, looking down at what the original did is the only way to justify what Sper does but I can assure you that Super wouldn't get away with 10% of its problems if Toriyama's name wasn't on it.