The Validity of the Daizenshuu

[Godo]

Once again you have proven that you haven't read a shit of my posts.

How so?

Because of that if you have read them you will know the answer.

[The Tori-bot]

You don't have to have read that crappy book by that mother and son team to know that it's crappy, and absolutely filled with false information

Why? Just because it was written by a mother and a son? Or because you've read crappy excerpts?

Seriously, I've read that book, and it's awful.

The mother goes on for about five pages about her daughter's damn flute lessons.

She feels compelled to write a chapter about her son playing with his toys. She goes on about the kid over and over and over again, and it drove me up the wall. I'm sure Danny's a perfectly nice kid, but I grew to hate him after a while.

And finally, the clincher:

I don't know this character's name, but oh well.

I need not say anything more.

[VegettoEX]

I still to this day find that people have this insane, idealized, confused, misinformed, disinformed, and plain ol' ignorant [pre]conception about what the daizenshuu are. Part of our goal with the specific podcast episode was to get around that... I get the impression there are fans out there thinking they're all just books that list fact after fact after fact after fact, none of which are correct, and that's all they do.

Err... no.

And let's take it out of an argumentative level, and be fucking honest and conversational, here...

There's a huge difference between a kid writing an unofficial book with his mom in a country where the show had been hacked apart pretty darn well at first... and books put out by the original rights owners of the series in conjunction with and under the approval of the original author.

Seriously, you guys. Seriously.

And then to do a 180 and go to a moderator standpoint...

I can't believe how huge this has become on this forum. Actually, I can. You know what the cause of it is?

We're all stubborn, non-persuasive, non-authoritative fanboys that don't comprehend anything that our peers are saying to each other. I haven't seen a single quote-and-reply on this subject that isn't a bunch of nerds: (1) using diversional tactics against each other, (2) reading, quoting, and responding to... but not listening to the other person, (3) attempting to slap their e-Penis across someone's face with holier-than-thou language techniques that are anything but.

(I'm not saying I'm exempt, either, but at least I'm honest about it.)

Dear fans,

Please get a clue, kplxthx.

[Godo]

attempting to slap their e-Penis across someone's face with holier-than-thou language techniques that are anything but.

I had a great laugh at that one!

[Victator Supreme]

I've imagined the daizenshuu being simular to the Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe and Who's Who of the DC Universe.

[Bardock the Mexican]

It's safe to say that in my unique interpretation of DB/DBZ canon is backed by a series of checks and balances. If somthing doesn't seem right then it probably isn't (like Tenshinhan being an alien or somthing like that) and that is right in most cases. Then there is the room for error with each person's belief as to what "canon" and "non-canon" is. It's a similar contundrum in the Star Wars fandom.

[Mr.Piccolo]

I've imagined the daizenshuu being simular to he Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe and Who' Who of the DC Universe.

I used to think so until recently hearing that most of the entries don't match up with events in the manga (like powerlevels). For the 'bonus question' about actually reading the books- I can't read japanese but my friend has vol. 2, 6, and 7 and from what we've gotten from others who are ''fluent'' in the language and that watch the show is that these aren't as superior as many think. Some people brought up good points that the motive behind making these was to make money. I guarantee if there was fifty times the printing of the daizenshuu that is available now and if it was in different languages, those books wouldn't hold much of a contest in any real convo.

p.s. I'm glad the word 'nerd' was finally used here.. one of us, one of us..

[Chibi Mystic Gohan]

There's a huge difference between a kid writing an unofficial book with his mom in a country where the show had been hacked apart pretty darn well at first... and books put out by the original rights owners of the series in conjunction with and under the approval of the original author.

I wasn't at all comparing the credibility of the Daizenshuu to that shitty excuse of a guide book, if that's the impression I gave you. I was merely giving an example of how you can know something about a book without having read it (because of feedback from people who, you know, have read the book). I've personally read the book and found it hilarious.

Anyway, my stance is that while the Daizenshuu aren't full of errors as some fanboys may think, it's not as if it's some "Dragon Ball Bible" or anything. That honor would go to the manga. But it sure is a damn good reference book.
And for the record, I have at least read Landmark and Forever, which have a few errors a detail freak like me can easily spot, so if I ever get any Daizenshuu (which I plan to) I'd like to fact check it myself.

[desirecampbell]

1. DragonBall GT should be moved down to 6th level; while the 5th level was intended for anime re-telling the manga, GT is entirely Toei's and independant. It's much more closely related to filler material, still official in some sense but often riddled with inconsistencies just like filler.

I disagree. I tried to separate content based on what they are, and how they were made. GT is the same type of content as DB and DBZ filler that was not based on anything in the manga. These productions were intended to be part of the series, but because they were derived from the anime (and not the manga directly) they are placed below the anime (that is based specifically on manga counterparts).

2. I would just merge levels 8 and 9 together, since neither of them are more "official" than the other.

I'd rather keep them separate. True, neither one seems any more canonical than the other, and I stated specifically that neither one should be taken as any kind of information source - but the animation created and produced by Toei, I think, should be considered slightly more official than videogames.
And, again, I'd rather try and separate canon levels based on what 'type' of content it is, and what its intentions are.

3. The Bardock television special should be moved up to level 4th canon at least, if not 1st. We know that Toriyama re-designed Bardock and all of his crew personally, and even gave his blessings on the different Saiyan fodder designs. And since Bardock was adopted into the manga (both original and Kanzenban) he's not a filler character anymore. (Like Aayla Secura going from S level to G level in Star Wars Attack of the Clones)

Oh, I never explain that part
The TV special, as a whole, is 5-th level, for exactly the reasons stated. It fits there. That said, the input given by Toriyama, like the character designs, are 3-rd level because they are "author notes". These notes are 3-rd level, but the animation is 5-th level, and the fact that Bardock is Goku's father, defied Freeza, and was killed is first-level canon, because those parts appeared there.
We can't just put the whole special up to first level canon just because there are parts of it referenced in the manga. We know that Toriyama input Bardock's rebellion and death into the manga and thus is part of the story, but we can't say the same for his crew, and less for Dodoria's involvement.

Remember, just because it's a lower level of canon doesn't mean that it isn't true - it just means that if it contradicts anything higher than it, it's left by the way-side.

But having said that, I realize that DragonBall can never truly be be made as consistent as the Star Wars universe. The big difference being that the show changed directions so many times, by an author who not only contradicted the anime but sometimes himself as well. And worse yet, he simply isn't as interested in keeping the continuity as smooth and possible as Star Wars. Toriyama doesn't have a team of writers and fact checkers to make sure everything is correct, and retcon as necessary.

Yeah. The biggest problem is the Toriyama just doesn't remember stuff. "Did I draw him? I don't think that was me." Yeah...

I've been trying to come up with some guideline as to Toriyama's comments (which is why there's no specific canon level for "author comments", though you could put them into 'author notes'). If Toriyama wasn't actually writing that part of the manga at the time he said something, it should be taken with a grain of salt.

For example, I recognise the Kanzenban as being the highest form of canon; it has a small number of additions and alterations that contradict, and therefore super-cede it's previous version. But then Toriyama also makes a number of mistakes an over sights that most people aren't eager to accept (re-coloring Dodoria yellow when he's always been purple, then forgetting that he always colored Bulma's hair purple and not blue.)

Well, this is a bit difficult. He may have forgotten what colours were correct, or he may have always wanted to colour them as such but was unable to. I heard that Toriyama only had a few colours to choose from during the tankobon run, and that these restrictions were lifted when the kanzenban came around - and that he recoloured them.

So while we can have a general consensus on what's more "official" and what has a higher canon than another, finer details are better decided on a case by case basis.

Yes, while it's good to have a clear set of guidelines, each piece of information must be considered individually, taking intoconsideration who wrote it, when it was written, what the intention was, what it contracts, and what kind of sense it makes.

The history of Trunks is another sticky issue of continuity for me. The television special clearly contradicts the manga version on a number of facts (how long Trunks had been a Super Saiyan, whether 17 killed Gohan or 17 and 18 together, and whether or not it was raining when Trunks discovered Gohan's body.) But I'm not so quick to dismiss the television special as filler, just because it was different. I'm contradicting myself by doing so, but...I just really liked the anime version better.

I too like the anime version better - much better. But we really should take the manga as correct over the TV special.

I've colour coded the levels now, to help separate the levels better.
Red is information written directly by the author, blue is the anime that was intended to fit with the manga, orange is animation not intended to fit with the story (and merchandise, because I didn't want a fifth colour), and green is extraneous content that was never meant to be taken as part of the story.

The best way to think about 'canon' in DragonBall is to use a tiered structure (like Star Wars canon).

There are a series of 'levels'. Each level supersedes any information from a lower level that contradicts it. For instance, in the manga (level 1) Super Saiyan hair is a deep gold colour, but in the anime (level 4) it is nearly white - the manga's version is taken as "more canonical".

1. Kanzenban manga - re-edited, and fixed - better than original - by Toriyama himself. For example, Enma's sign says "welcome", not "wellcome".

2. tankobon manga - original work, but contains errors and omissions corrected in the Kanzenban.

3. Author notes - anything written by Toriyama about the series that is not included directly in the manga. For example, his notes about Saiyan hair colour.

4. Original Japanese Anime, based on manga - DragonBall, DragonBall Z, Trunks special - disregarding filler. This includes instances that are derived directly from the manga, but are changed somehow (like the SSj hair colour, Goku's gi colour, when Pilaf shows up, and the friggin' week that was the Freeza fight) - but it doesn't include instances of filler that are entirely new (see below).

5. Original Japanese Anime not based on manga, produced by Toei for the series - DB/DBZ filler, DragonBall GT, Bardock special, GT Special. This includes any animation made for the series, but not based on any direct manga counterpart. Like the Garlic Jr saga, the driving episode, Yamcha, Tenshinhan, Piccolo, and Krillin helping out at the Cell games. These events are meant to have happened in the series, but sometimes contradict higher levels of canon.

6. Original Japanese DB/DBZ movies - produced by Toei, but not meant to 'fit' into the series' storyline. These can show the mechanics of the dragonworld in more detail, but actual events should necessarily be taken as having happened.

7. Official guidebooks, databooks, artbooks, and other official merchandise - these products are based off of the manga, the anime (including filler), and the movies so they cannot be taken as as high a level of canon as what they are derived from.

8. Original Video Animation for video games, game shows, fire safety videos, commercials, etc. - produced by Toei, but absolutely not supposed to represent the events of the story in any way.

9. Games (video, card, board, etc) - nothing taken from any game-based mechanics or story should be taken as literal to the story proper.


--------
You'll notice that I specifically mentioned the original Japanese animation there, and no other country's dubs. Replications of the original animation and script should never be taken as canon. The only time a dub is ever taken as any kind of authority is when it is equivalent to the original animation.

Does that help at all? Or am I just making it worse?

[Mr.Piccolo]

I think Desire's list is the most understandable one that I've seen in a while.

[Olivier Hague]

Because of that if you have read them you will know the answer.

I guess I missed that, then. Sorry. Where was it?

Seriously, I've read that book, and it's awful.

Yeah, I know, it was mentioned here, a while ago. I read the beginning on Amazon. Whew.

I've imagined the daizenshuu being simular to he Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe and Who' Who of the DC Universe.

I used to think so until recently hearing that most of the entries don't match up with events in the manga (like powerlevels).

That's simply not true. "Most of the entries"? Come on...

The way I see it, people who didn't understand Japanese looked at the pictures and read what they could understand, i.e. some English words and numbers. Now there apparently was a typo somewhere regarding Raditz's power level, they saw that, and of course, deduced that there were lots of mistakes in the Daizenshû.
Meh.

Some people brought up good points that the motive behind making these was to make money.

If you go there, that was also the motive behind the manga, the anime, etc...

I was merely giving an example of how you can know something about a book without having read it (because of feedback from people who, you know, have read the book).

Feedback might do the trick, yeah. But do you know many people who've actually read the Daizenshû?

I have at least read Landmark and Forever, which have a few errors a detail freak like me can easily spot

Other than weird spellings? I'm interested.

I heard that Toriyama only had a few colours to choose from during the tankobon run, and that these restrictions were lifted when the kanzenban came around - and that he recoloured them.

'Sounds weird to me. Why would Shûeisha do that?

And again, some Daizenshû are manga-related (volume 1, 2 and 4), so there's no particular reason they should be below anime in your canon levels...

[Mr.Piccolo]

Some people brought up good points that the motive behind making these was to make money.

If you go there, that was also the motive behind the manga, the anime, etc...

Why would you even bring up the manga when it comes to making money. When making money is used in a thread, it usually implies milking the franchise, the manga basically started the franchise.

[Olivier Hague]

Franchise or not, a manga series is supposed to make money.

[desirecampbell]

I heard that Toriyama only had a few colours to choose from during the tankobon run, and that these restrictions were lifted when the kanzenban came around - and that he recoloured them.

'Sounds weird to me. Why would Shûeisha do that?

I thought someone brought up, in a discussion about colours, that Toriyama was only allowed to use a few colours in some parts, which is why SSj hair is sometimes white, and why Goku's gi is sometimes red. I dunno - just pops into my mind.

And again, some Daizenshû are manga-related (volume 1, 2 and 4), so there's no particular reason they should be below anime in your canon levels...

The daizenshuu as a whole must be placed below what they, as a whole, are derived from. Just like how parts of the Bardock story are just as true and "canonical" as the manga, so are certain parts of the daizenshuu.

And, again, being a lower level than something else doesn't mean what it's saying isn't "true" (ie: Bardock), and just because something is a high level of canon, doesn't mean it's "true" either (ie: Dodoria's colour in the kanzenban). Everything should be looked at individually.

[Olivier Hague]

I thought someone brought up, in a discussion about colours, that Toriyama was only allowed to use a few colours in some parts, which is why SSj hair is sometimes white, and why Goku's gi is sometimes red.

Oh, that. Yeah, that's for bichromatic pages (basically, black and white plus shades of red and grey). I believe they didn't change them in the Kanzenban though?
The other color pages are in full color, and I really doubt Toriyama had restrictions.

The daizenshuu as a whole must be placed below what they, as a whole, are derived from.

Er... But you don't consider the TV series as a whole (there's the filler), so why do that for the Daizenshû?

(you still have the Garlic Jr. filler on a higher level than the movie it followed, by the way)

[desirecampbell]

The daizenshuu as a whole must be placed below what they, as a whole, are derived from.

Er... But you don't consider the TV series as a whole (there's the filler), so why do that for the Daizenshû?

Basically because it's easy to split up the anime into 'derived from the manga' and 'filler made by Toei' (just like how there's a level for the two manga productions - they could be put together, but because there's a clear distinction it's easy to separate them in canon levels). I feel confident in splitting the two up because it's clear that some parts of the anime were either 'based on manga' or 'based on nothing' because there were no other sources to derive content from when the anime was being made. With the daizenshuu and 'world books', they were written after everything else (manga, anime, filler, movies) so it's harder to determine where the information is derived from, some information could be from the manga, or the anime, or anime filler, or a movie, or a TV special.... That, coupled with the fact that there are so many books that we'd have to make entries for each one specifically, leads me to be content with 'books written after the whole of the series is complete' being underneath manga, anime, and movies.

All information produced after the run of the series concluded is suspect of being derived from any of these adaptations, the daizenshuu included.

-edit-

(you still have the Garlic Jr. filler on a higher level than the movie it followed, by the way)

Yeah, it's there because I don't want to separate that one arc from the rest of the anime into it's own canon level, or change "Original Japanese DB/DBZ movies" to "Original Japanese DB/DBZ movies and the Garlic Jr arc".

It's part of the anime written by Toei, not based on the manga, and was meant to fit into the series (but can't, much like other things in this canon level) - so it's 'level 5'.

[Olivier Hague]

With the daizenshuu and 'world books', they were written after everything else (manga, anime, filler, movies) so it's harder to determine where the information is derived from, some information could be from the manga, or the anime, or anime filler, or a movie, or a TV special....

I really can't think of anything coming from the anime in volumes 1, 2 and 4... They're specifically derived from the manga.
(same thing for the Landmark and Forever guides, now that I think about it...)

I don't want to separate that one arc from the rest of the anime into it's own canon level, or change "Original Japanese DB/DBZ movies" to "Original Japanese DB/DBZ movies and the Garlic Jr arc".

I would put all the filler and the movies on the same level, myself...

[desirecampbell]

I really can't think of anything coming from the anime in volumes 1, 2 and 4... They're specifically derived from the manga.
(same thing for the Landmark and Forever guides, now that I think about it...)

So these books should be pretty easy to validate and be held up as accurate information - because they can be verified by external sources.

I would put all the filler and the movies on the same level, myself...

Well, I separate them for two reasons: one, the anime filler was intended to be part of the series proper, it was made with the intention of not contradicting anything (not that they do a good job of that, but still...) while the movies were made without the intention to fit into the series. The second reason is because they're different productions, one's a weekly TV show the other's a feature film, and I tried to separate canon levels based on productions rather than individual content.

[Taku128]

But movie characters tend to show up in filler, like Garlic Jr.

[desirecampbell]

But movie characters tend to show up in filler, like Garlic Jr.

True, but my point is that the anime filler was intended to be part of the series, it wasn't like the movies where Toei simply made a story that didn't have any connection to the series other than the characters.