Did Adult Gohan...

BlueSky · Post by **Kaboom** » Mon Nov 06, 2006 11:55 am

Whoa. Thourough list FTW.

However Conan, you forgot one SSj2 instance for Goku. I'm pretty sure I saw lightning bolts when he transformed against Ledgic in GT.

Conan the SSJ · Post by **Conan the SSJ** » Mon Nov 06, 2006 12:12 pm

Mr.Piccolo wrote:I wasn't saying it in a bad way or anything. I was complimenting it on how it expanded to GT and such. *continues cleaning*

-rick

Ahh, my fault. Thanks for the props.

SSj Kaboom wrote:Whoa. Thourough list FTW.

However Conan, you forgot one SSj2 instance for Goku. I'm pretty sure I saw lightning bolts when he transformed against Ledgic in GT.

I dunno, Kaboom, it didn't really look like Goku was using SSJ2 against Ledgic, it seemed more just the 5-or-6 banged SSJ form he almost always used. For Goku in GT I'm basically just comparing to the most obvious instance he's at SSJ2 against Rilldo... *transforms, blocks attack, reverts to SSJ* Where he's got 2 or 3 bangs, his hair's more spiked somewhat and a tad more intense.

BlueSky · Post by **Kaboom** » Mon Nov 06, 2006 12:30 pm

Okay. But I still thought I saw the lightning bolts when he first transformed.

zoiozazu · Post by **zoiozazu** » Mon Nov 06, 2006 7:16 pm

Whoa!

Nice list, Conan...

Just one thing....

I think Goku goes firstly into SSJ2 just before the Battle with Vegeta.
He becomes a SSJ2, and then Vegeta said: "He is stronger than Gohan when he fought against Cell". That probably means that his SSJ2 level surpassed SSJ2 Gohan's Tranformation.

And then, Vegeta becomes a SSJ2 too! And Gokue say: This will take more time than I thought...

This is on Chapter 458.

sharkdude0709 · Post by **sharkdude0709** » Mon Nov 20, 2006 11:01 pm

I get really confused with the ssj2. Besides goku and gohan, is there anyone else that can achive it. (I'm not to sure about vegeta)

BlueSky · Post by **Kaboom** » Mon Nov 20, 2006 11:14 pm

sharkdude0709 wrote:I get really confused with the ssj2. Besides goku and gohan, is there anyone else that can achive it. (I'm not to sure about vegeta)

Vegeta can, yes, as well as Vegetto. And it's safe to assume Gotenks and Gogeta can, too.

Also, I just checked on YouTube, and Goku so had lightning bolts against Ledgic.

Mystic Jack · Post by **Mystic Jack** » Mon Nov 20, 2006 11:41 pm

Yeah, I remember that battle, I remember it too. Vaguely.

Suupaa Gohan 2 · Post by **Suupaa Gohan 2** » Wed Nov 29, 2006 4:00 pm

Not sure about the Anime (though I agree with the point that has been made as far as Toei being inconsistant with its animation, not JUST with lightning and auras, I mean Hell, why do you think there are so many freakin' "Dragonball Bloopers"?), but I've all 42 volumes of the Manga (In Spanish ^^; ), and it's true-in the Buu Saga, Gohan only goes SSJ2 one time, and that's when Kibito tells him to show his power.

Super Gohan 2 (Kibito)

And though it'd be a great theory to say that he went Super Level 2 when Videl got the shit kicked out of her, in fact, he only went level one...

Level 1 Gohan (Videl)

Though the rest of the instances we see Gohan in his super form for the remainder of the Buu Saga (or the remainder of the series as a whole, GT and its riddiculous continuity errors excluded) is, indeed, only level 1. As mentioned, the Anime may be inconsitant with the animation, but Toriyama-Sensei was pretty consistant with the signiture lightning, as shown clearly throughout the Gokou vs. Majin Vegeta battle. The one instance he went Level 2 in the Buu Saga, Gohan also had the lightning, and his hair was indeed more rigid...yet even during the fight with Buu, his aura is basic and his hair looks to be in the normal state.

Super Gohan KameHame Ha (Buu)

Super Gohan, Still the KameHame Ha (Buu)

Super Gohan vs. Buu (1)

Super Gohan vs. Buu (2)

Now this is the burning question I'd like to know.

Had his Level 2 transformation been for Videl, and then had he only gone Level 1 for all other instances, that'd make sense. However, his Level 2 transformation for Kibito is CLEARLY voluntary...meaning that, by this point, like Gokou and Vegeta, he has learned to control this state.

So if he can willingly go Super 2 in the same way that Gokou and Vegeta can...

Then why in the HFIL (I know, it's a cliche'd line, but I had to say it

) didn't he do it when he was trying to destroy Buu's egg and, later, before he got his ass handed to him and nearly DIED against Buu?!

I mean, don't get me wrong, I pretty much hate what Gohan became after the Cell Saga anyways, so I don't really CARE that much, but it just seems to be yet another of Toriyama-Sensei's famous "oversights" at this point in the series.

Rocketman · Post by **Rocketman** » Wed Nov 29, 2006 4:24 pm

Suupaa Gohan 2 wrote:So if he can willingly go Super 2 in the same way that Goku and Vegeta can...

He can't. Goku and Vegeta can just BAMF into the form. Gohan has to charge up for a bit to use it.

BlueSky · Post by **Kaboom** » Wed Nov 29, 2006 5:30 pm

Rocketman wrote: ...can just BAMF into the form.

*Gives Onomatopoeia of the Year award*

Conan the SSJ · Post by **Conan the SSJ** » Wed Nov 29, 2006 5:58 pm

Suupaa Gohan 2 wrote:Not sure about the Anime (though I agree with the point that has been made as far as Toei being inconsistant with its animation, not JUST with lightning and auras, I mean Hell, why do you think there are so many freakin' "Dragonball Bloopers"?), but I've all 42 volumes of the Manga (In Spanish ^^; ), and it's true-in the Buu Saga, Gohan only goes SSJ2 one time, and that's when Kibito tells him to show his power.

Super Gohan 2 (Kibito)

And though it'd be a great theory to say that he went Super Level 2 when Videl got the shit kicked out of her, in fact, he only went level one...

Level 1 Gohan (Videl)

Though the rest of the instances we see Gohan in his super form for the remainder of the Buu Saga (or the remainder of the series as a whole, GT and its riddiculous continuity errors excluded) is, indeed, only level 1. As mentioned, the Anime may be inconsitant with the animation, but Toriyama-Sensei was pretty consistant with the signiture lightning, as shown clearly throughout the Goku vs. Majin Vegeta battle. The one instance he went Level 2 in the Buu Saga, Gohan also had the lightning, and his hair was indeed more rigid...yet even during the fight with Buu, his aura is basic and his hair looks to be in the normal state.

Super Gohan KameHame Ha (Buu)

Super Gohan, Still the KameHame Ha (Buu)

Super Gohan vs. Buu (1)

Super Gohan vs. Buu (2)

Now this is the burning question I'd like to know.

Had his Level 2 transformation been for Videl, and then had he only gone Level 1 for all other instances, that'd make sense. However, his Level 2 transformation for Kibito is CLEARLY voluntary...meaning that, by this point, like Goku and Vegeta, he has learned to control this state.

So if he can willingly go Super 2 in the same way that Goku and Vegeta can...

Then why in the HFIL (I know, it's a cliche'd line, but I had to say it ) didn't he do it when he was trying to destroy Buu's egg and, later, before he got his ass handed to him and nearly DIED against Buu?!

I mean, don't get me wrong, I pretty much hate what Gohan became after the Cell Saga anyways, so I don't really CARE that much, but it just seems to be yet another of Toriyama-Sensei's famous "oversights" at this point in the series.

Your explanations about Gohan only having SSJ2 when transforming against Kibito can only be validated in the manga universe, as opposed to the anime version where it should be noted the lightning aspect may be only representing moments of intensity; the SSJ2 level in the anime canon doesn't always have to have it. Two separate universes/canon. I find it kinda odd to call Toei's animation illogical when the anime isn't supposed to represent the Manga canon, it is its own entity. For example, when Vegeta goes SSJ2 to stall Kid Buu, there's no lightning surrounding him in the anime; meaning it's not a necessary factor/sign of the level in this canon. In the manga, sure, I agree. But the anime has its own rules.

Post by **desirecampbell** » Wed Nov 29, 2006 6:13 pm

Conan the SSJ wrote:Your explanations about Gohan only having SSJ2 when transforming against Kibito can only be validated in the manga universe, as opposed to the anime version where it should be noted the lightning aspect may be only representing moments of intensity; the SSJ2 level in the anime canon doesn't always have to have it. Two separate universes/canon. I find it kinda odd to call Toei's animation illogical when the anime isn't supposed to represent the Manga canon, it is its own entity. For example, when Vegeta goes SSJ2 to stall Kid Buu, there's no lightning surrounding him in the anime; meaning it's not a necessary factor/sign of the level in this canon. In the manga, sure, I agree. But the anime has its own rules.

That's kind of a cop out, really. We know that the manga's pretty consistent about auras and that the show's definitely not. The anime's an adaptation, sure, but to say it's "not suppossed to represent the manga" is just wrong. Sure, there are different conventions in each and the story (while quite close) does differ on several small points; but, all in all, the anime and the manga are basically the same thing.

The manga shows, clearly, that Gohan was SSj2 at certain points. We can tell because of the lightning which is ever-present durring that level. In the anime, auras are inconsistent at best - so we can't use the anime on it's own to verify what level Gohan is at at any given point. But that doesn't mean we have to ignore the manga: the basis for the anime, the story that the anime is adapted from.

Suupaa Gohan 2 · Post by **Suupaa Gohan 2** » Wed Nov 29, 2006 6:34 pm

Rocketman wrote:He can't. Goku and Vegeta can just BAMF into the form. Gohan has to charge up for a bit to use it.

Hm, good point. And I suppose the "Destroy Buu's Egg" thing WAS a now-or-never situation, and fast action was necessary.

Conan the SSJ wrote: Your explanations about Gohan only having SSJ2 when transforming against Kibito can only be validated in the manga universe, as opposed to the anime version where it should be noted the lightning aspect may be only representing moments of intensity; the SSJ2 level in the anime canon doesn't always have to have it. Two separate universes/canon. I find it kinda odd to call Toei's animation illogical when the anime isn't supposed to represent the Manga canon, it is its own entity. For example, when Vegeta goes SSJ2 to stall Kid Buu, there's no lightning surrounding him in the anime; meaning it's not a necessary factor/sign of the level in this canon. In the manga, sure, I agree. But the anime has its own rules.

That's a very good point that I never considered. Though, I'd still say the same events pretty much occur concerning him during those scenes without any major Anime changes other than the animation itself, so it's logical to say even in the Anime the only instance he went SSJ2 was for Kibito. I mean, it'd be weird to say he went SSJ2 in the Anime, for instance, versus Buu, whereas he didn't in the Manga...but then again, I suppose if you consider them two seperate canon, that is entirely POSSIBLE...just unlikely, I guess. But that's just my opinion. I prefer the Manga to the Anime, anyways, so perhaps that's just my reasoning, though both possibilities are definately valid, if strange.

desirecampbell wrote:The manga shows, clearly, that Gohan was SSj2 at certain points. We can tell because of the lightning which is ever-present durring that level. In the anime, auras are inconsistent at best - so we can't use the anime on it's own to verify what level Gohan is at at any given point. But that doesn't mean we have to ignore the manga: the basis for the anime, the story that the anime is adapted from.

That's basically what I mean. It's easy to consider the Anime a seperate canon on some levels, but moreso for small events and filler ideas (for example, the story Kaioh-Sama tells Gokou of how there were once two races on Vegetasei, the Saiyajin and the Tsufurujin...there is no basis for this theory anywhere in the Manga, but I always felt it was quite an interesting tale (I've drawn many ideas from this story for my fanfic) and, since there's nothing in the Manga that goes AGAINST it, I consider it to be canonical). The MAJOR events of the storyline play out almost exactly the same in the Anime and Manga, and tell almost the exact same story (as opposed to some series such as FullMetal Alchemist, where after a certain point the stories told in the Anime and Manga are entirely different; THAT'S the type of series I would consider to have two very seperate canon). That's what makes me conclude that even if the Anime didn't show it as clearly, Gohan still did the same transformations when the same events involving him at this point transpired; IE, logically, even in the Anime, he only went SSJ2 in the same instance as in the Manga.

So while it's POSSIBLE to argue otherwise, I just find it very unlikely that we could say Gohan was an SSJ2 when fighting Buu in the Anime, when he wasn't in the Manga. *shrug*

Li'l Lemmy · Post by **Li'l Lemmy** » Wed Nov 29, 2006 7:08 pm

Suupaa Gohan 2 wrote:and it's true-in the Buu Saga, Gohan only goes SSJ2 one time, and that's when Kibito tells him to show his power.

Not only that, but this is specifically mentioned in the Budokai Tenkaichi Character Profiles mode under Super Saiyan 2 Gohan (Adult). But, ah . . . don't reference those profiles for anything else.

Suupaa Gohan 2 then wrote:And though it'd be a great theory to say that he went Super Level 2 when Videl got the shit kicked out of her, in fact, he only went level one...

Believe it or not, you can see the difference in the anime too. It's probably one of the rare instances where they decided to actually pay addention to the addition or omission of the lightning, since it was the first time we saw the SSJ2 form since the Cell Games. After that, it all goes to hell.

Suupaa Gohan 2 next wrote:Had his Level 2 transformation been for Videl, and then had he only gone Level 1 for all other instances, that'd make sense. However, his Level 2 transformation for Kibito is CLEARLY voluntary...meaning that, by this point, like Goku and Vegeta, he has learned to control this state.

Right.

Suupaa Gohan 2 next wrote:So if he can willingly go Super 2 in the same way that Goku and Vegeta can...

Then why in the HFIL (I know, it's a cliche'd line, but I had to say it ) didn't he do it when he was trying to destroy Buu's egg and, later, before he got his ass handed to him and nearly DIED against Buu?!

No! Logic hurt me brain, need soothe it with not thinky stuff! (*applies cold compress*)

I don't have that manga volume, but in the anime I used to get the impression that he did indeed go SSJ2-- you know, during that HUGE power-up in front of the egg? But again, there was no lightning. I wondered if the animators just forgot it or if it wasn't included in the manga . . . and now that I know, well . . . that kinda sucks. Why the HFIL, indeed?

Suupaa Gohan 2 finally wrote:I mean, don't get me wrong, I pretty much hate what Gohan became after the Cell Saga anyways, so I don't really CARE that much, but it just seems to be yet another of Toriyama-Sensei's famous "oversights" at this point in the series.

So strange. You love Cell Games Gohan, but hate Adult Gohan, so it's like Toriyama threw Goten and Trunks in there to keep you with us-- because without them we would have had no chibis in the Buu saga at all. "No, don't leave!" Toriyama says to SG2. "Look, I have chibis! CHIBIS!!"

At any rate, I think it was awesome for SG2 to share those manga scans with us. Duo, man, are you about to be REPLACED?!

As for the whole "two separate canon universes" thing . . . ehhh, I kind of agree with desirecampbell there. It's sort of a cheat. But anything to make the headache go away, right?!

Duo · Post by **Duo** » Wed Dec 13, 2006 4:58 am

H..how did this entire discussion occur without me being involved and when did so many people take up my viewpoint which used to be almost uniquely mine?

What on earth has been going on lately?!?

I almost feel shafted in regards to Manga-related issues.

(Thanks to random porn spam-bot for making me notice this thread)

SS2 Vegeto · Post by **SS2 Vegeto** » Wed Dec 13, 2006 1:19 pm

I was expecting to have to post atleast something, but have nothing to say. =/

No, he never went Super Saiya-jin 2 after his first transformation at the world tournament.

Mr.Piccolo · Post by **Mr.Piccolo** » Wed Dec 13, 2006 1:24 pm

I don't want to give Dabura credit, so I want to say Gohan wasn't SSJ2. I'm gonna make the excuse that Spopovich and Yamu's attack on Gohan left him unable to go SSJ2.

As stupid as that sounds, it works well with the fact that he doesn't go SSJ2 while unleashing the kamehameha on Buu's shell and against Buu. I mean come on, if he could go SSJ2 why didn't he. Also, I don't care how much he's been slacking off or how strong Buu was, Gohan wouldn't get owned that bad unless he wasn't SSJ2..
-Rick

SS2 Vegeto · Post by **SS2 Vegeto** » Wed Dec 13, 2006 1:37 pm

A few points.

a) a lightning charged aura was completely absent

b) his hairstyle did not match that of Super Saiya-jin 2

c) he seems to have to power up for quite a bit to reach Super Saiya-jin 2 now, time he didn't have when firing on Buu's egg.

d) last time he went Super Saiya-jin 2 in the middle of a crisis, his actions resulted in his father dying, a companion being fatally wounded, a massive power boost for the individual responsible (other than himself), and the earth was nearly destroyed - twice, along with the rest of the solar system the second time around. A bit of reluctancy to go straight into this form in a battle that it's necessity is not quite determine completely (i.e. Dabura), is quite understandable.

aarondirebear · Post by **aarondirebear** » Wed Dec 13, 2006 3:45 pm

Suupaa Gohan 2 wrote: So if he can willingly go Super 2 in the same way that Goku and Vegeta can...

Then why in the HFIL (I know, it's a cliche'd line, but I had to say it :P) didn't he do it when he was trying to destroy Buu's egg and, later, before he got his ass handed to him and nearly DIED against Buu?!

Saiya-jin pride and human arrogance all rolled into one neat little package contributed to his hubris and eventual defeat by Majin Buu.

Suupaa Gohan 2 wrote: I mean, don't get me wrong, I pretty much hate what Gohan became after the Cell Saga anyways, so I don't really CARE that much, but it just seems to be yet another of Toriyama-Sensei's famous "oversights" at this point in the series.

Me and my brother hate that too, but I don't blame Toriyama, I blame Shounen Jump for pigeonholing him into making another action saga when his desire was to have a story about Gohan's adventures as a High School student and Sentai team member...come on, Sharpener was totally meant to be the third Saiyaman Sentai member!

He even went so far as to try and make people hate Gokuu by making him an asshole (staying dead because of how fun it was in the afterlife so that he could train for eternity, not the "if I am alive the world is in danger" excuse that funimation made up) so that people could accept Gohan as the new hero.

TheMajinRedComet · Post by **TheMajinRedComet** » Wed Dec 13, 2006 5:40 pm

If he went SSJ2 against Kibeto, why did Vegeta say he was weaker then he was when he fought cell... I always thought that he just went max level SSJ.