The OFFICIAL Dragon Ball Wikipedia Project

Discussion regarding the entirety of the franchise in a general (meta) sense, including such aspects as: production, trends, merchandise, fan culture, and more.

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Olivier Hague
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Post by Olivier Hague » Thu Nov 23, 2006 2:21 pm

Taku128 wrote:Daizenshuu Ex also spells Chaozu as Chiaotsu (The FUNimation spelling), but we don't need to go changed his article. Daizenshuu Ex doesn't use what should be accepted as THE way to spell the character names
What would that be, then? And why?
Why should merchendise names be used?
When it's consistent, why not? It's more official than fan guesswork...
Battle Stadium D.O.N used Frieza, does that mean we need to go change the name of that article?
That "Frieza" spelling is far less common on official Japanese merchandise than the "Freeza" one. It also appeared fairly recently, and I think we all know why.

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Post by Taku128 » Thu Nov 23, 2006 2:24 pm

Olivier Hague wrote:
Taku128 wrote:Daizenshuu Ex also spells Chaozu as Chiaotsu (The FUNimation spelling), but we don't need to go changed his article. Daizenshuu Ex doesn't use what should be accepted as THE way to spell the character names
What would that be, then? And why?
Why should merchendise names be used?
When it's consistent, why not? It's more official than fan guesswork...
Battle Stadium D.O.N used Frieza, does that mean we need to go change the name of that article?
That "Frieza" spelling is far less common on official Japanese merchandise than the "Freeza" one. It also appeared fairly recently, and I think we all know why.
Because they have no idea what they're doing half the time! I saw a picture of a drink machine at a Japanese McDonalds that said "Flesh Drink", does that mean people should call in the "flesh drink machine"? No, because they have no idea what the fuck they're doing.
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Post by Olivier Hague » Thu Nov 23, 2006 2:24 pm

desirecampbell wrote:if the name is clearly an approximation of 'burdock' than, yes I can say it should be "burdock' instead of 'barduck'.
Are you saying that "Barduck" wouldn't work as an approximation of "burdock"? They only changed two letters (and it still fits the kana spelling). Where do you draw the line?

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Post by Mr.Piccolo » Thu Nov 23, 2006 2:26 pm

First off, like I said before I'm willing to work on this project. My login name is RICKistheBOSS (Because I am). Second, Olivier how did you type FR1EZA without it becoming Freeza.

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Post by Taku128 » Thu Nov 23, 2006 2:27 pm

Olivier Hague wrote:
desirecampbell wrote:if the name is clearly an approximation of 'burdock' than, yes I can say it should be "burdock' instead of 'barduck'.
Are you saying that "Barduck" wouldn't work as an approximation of "burdock"? They only changed two letters (and it still fits the kana spelling). Where do you draw the line?
You have to concider what the name pun is, where letters should be subsituted, like ls for rs, and other things. Barduck makes the pun on Burdock not as apparent and just sounds stupid. It makes it look like it's some half assed pun on duck.
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Post by desirecampbell » Thu Nov 23, 2006 2:28 pm

Taku128 wrote:Because they have no idea what they're doing half the time! I saw a picture of a drink machine at a Japanese McDonalds that said "Flesh Drink", does that mean people should call in the "flesh drink machine"? No, because they have no idea what the fuck they're doing.
Oh man. I seriously have to go puke now.
Olivier Hague wrote:Are you saying that "Barduck" wouldn't work as an approximation of "burdock"? They only changed two letters (and it still fits the kana spelling). Where do you draw the line?
The point isn't whether or not is fits the kana, "baadakku" fits the kana. The point is if his name is Burdock, then that's his name. Trunks isn't Torrunksuu.

If the kana is different from what would be used for 'burdock' than, yes, his name shouldn't be 'burdock', but that's not what it looks like.

Mr.Piccolo wrote:First off, like I said before I'm willing to work on this project. My login name is RICKistheBOSS (Because I am). Second, Olivier how did you type FR1EZA without it becoming Freeza.
-Rick
Glad to have you aboard :)

The name filter just looks for the text "frieza". You can simply disrupt it so it's not that. Concatination works, I think, but the easiest thing to do is use a tag inside the name. like this:

this: Frieza will produce Frieza.

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Post by Olivier Hague » Thu Nov 23, 2006 2:33 pm

Taku128 wrote:they have no idea what they're doing half the time!
They may be inconsistent sometimes, but that's hardly surprising considering they don't care much about alphabet spellings (for obvious reasons).
Sometimes they are consistent and do know what they're doing. For example, when they have a character named "ta-resu" in kana and they spell his name "Tulece", you can't really argue they're being random or plain lazy about it.
I saw a picture of a drink machine at a Japanese McDonalds
(yay! generalizations!)
that said "Flesh Drink", does that mean people should call in the "flesh drink machine"? No, because they have no idea what the fuck they're doing.
We're not talking about "their" English skills, we're talking about the spelling of made-up names.

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Post by Taku128 » Thu Nov 23, 2006 2:35 pm

Well, they do sound better romanized then I thought they would be, I guess we could use their named, but I might change the inconsistant ones.
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Post by Olivier Hague » Thu Nov 23, 2006 2:56 pm

Taku128 wrote:Barduck makes the pun on Burdock not as apparent
Sure, but who's to say just how apparent it should be? Isn't that subjective?
and just sounds stupid.
Again, that's subjective.

Besides, "stupid-sounding names" abound, in "Dragon Ball", if you go there... ^^;
And while I guess "Barduck" may sound more stupid to American readers than to Japanese ones, the contrary would be true for "Tenshinhan"...

desirecampbell wrote:The point isn't whether or not is fits the kana, "baadakku" fits the kana.
Indeed. That would work, technically.
The point is if his name is Burdock, then that's his name.
Sure. But is it? How do we know?
That's the thing: is his name the word "burdock" itself, or is it simply derived from "burdock"?
If the kana is different from what would be used for 'burdock' than, yes, his name shouldn't be 'burdock'
Er... Well, it kinda is? I've seen very few instances of the word being spelled "ba-dakku". It's "ba-dokku" most of the time.

And even when the kana spelling is the same, the author might want the alphabet spelling to be different. Kana spelling = pronunciation, and homophones exist (especially when we're dealing with made-up names in an imaginary world: pretty much anything can happen, if the author feels like it).

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Post by desirecampbell » Thu Nov 23, 2006 3:04 pm

Olivier Hague wrote:Er... Well, it kinda is? I've seen very few instances of the word being spelled "ba-dakku". It's "ba-dokku" most of the time.
So kana'd (yes, kana is a verb now) 'burdock' is usually 'baadokku? Would that be more like 'dock' or 'duck'?
Let's try this from the begining:
1. what would the kana characters for 'burdock' be?
2. Are they the same as the one's used for "Bardock"'s name? バーダック

If they're the same characters, his name is probably 'Burdock'. If they aren't the same, his names probably not Burdock', but a slight variation on it.
Olivier Hague wrote:And even when the kana spelling is the same, the author might want the alphabet spelling to be different. Kana spelling = pronunciation, and homophones exist (especially when we're dealing with made-up names in an imaginary world: pretty much everything can happen, if the author feels like it).
True, but we can't really take it upon ourselves to try and intemperate which spelling Toriyama may have wanted.

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Post by Olivier Hague » Thu Nov 23, 2006 4:38 pm

desirecampbell wrote:So kana'd (yes, kana is a verb now) 'burdock' is usually 'baadokku? Would that be more like 'dock' or 'duck'?
More like "dock"... Then again, that's the point, isn't it? ^_^;
1. what would the kana characters for 'burdock' be?
2. Are they the same as the one's used for "Bardock"'s name? バーダック
The kana for the English word "burdock" are generally "ba-dokku", and more rarely "ba-dakku" (so rarely, in fact, that I'm wondering if we shouldn't blame "Dragon Ball" for that one!).
The kana for the "Dragon Ball" character are "ba-dakku".
If they're the same characters, his name is probably 'Burdock'. If they aren't the same, his names probably not Burdock', but a slight variation on it.
And in both cases, it's just "probably", which is why it's a complicated issue. ^^;
we can't really take it upon ourselves to try and intemperate which spelling Toriyama may have wanted.
(er... you mean "extrapolate", right?)
But isn't that what we're doing right now anyway? ^^;
If we don't want to extrapolate at all, we'd only have the (few) alphabet spellings written in the actual manga by Toriyama. And for the rest, we'd have to stick to the standard romanization by default. That would be "Furiiza" rather than "Freeza".

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Post by desirecampbell » Thu Nov 23, 2006 5:11 pm

Erm... I meant 'interpret'. Damn spell check.

So, if the usual way to say 'burdock' is different from the character's name, then his name is probably not "Burdock".

From the sound of it, it seems the character's name really is more like "Burduck".

I think his name is Burduck. I feel bad about this now. :cry:

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Post by Olivier Hague » Thu Nov 23, 2006 5:31 pm

desirecampbell wrote:From the sound of it, it seems the character's name really is more like "Burduck".
Why do you think so?

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Post by Maphisto86 » Thu Nov 23, 2006 6:42 pm

I knew this would happen someday. Sure Campbell I would love to help... I have been editing many Wikipedia articles including Dragonball ones. For example you can see my edits at the "Oozaru" page. Hope this project goes smoothly. A lot of Dragonball related pages have been purged by Wikipedians or are being purged. :x

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Post by Tyro » Thu Nov 23, 2006 7:19 pm

I'd be happy to help too. Although most edits made on wikipedia by people who actually know something are deleted/changed back.

Oh yeah, I should probably mention that the thread about Broli has a lot of errors. Such as Raditz' power level, how Broli recieved a zenkai while lying in a pile of trash on Planet Vegeta even when he wasn't healed from his knife wound, how his "OMG mega form" gains power every second... Newbies who post stuff like this make me sick.

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Post by desirecampbell » Fri Nov 24, 2006 12:22 am

Olivier Hague wrote:
desirecampbell wrote:From the sound of it, it seems the character's name really is more like "Burduck".
Why do you think so?
Well, if the kana for the English word "burdock" are generally "ba-dokku" and the character's name is "ba-dakku", then his name is not Burdock.

the change is not in the first syllable, so the name change isn't Burdock to Bardock, but rather Burdock to Burduck, or perhaps Burdack, or hopefully not Burdick.

What would best describe the change from "dokku" to "dakku"?


-back to topic-

Great! Glad to have more support. I've been reading over more about what a Project is and what it needs to do. I'll be adding more to my Talk Page as I take it all in. But feel free to pop in and give your two-cents, or just to state your support :D

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Post by Olivier Hague » Fri Nov 24, 2006 2:30 am

desirecampbell wrote:Well, if the kana for the English word "burdock" are generally "ba-dokku" and the character's name is "ba-dakku", then his name is not Burdock.
(hm? the "probably" is gone... ^^;)
That's not necessarily true. The author could decide that it's spelled "Burdock" and pronunced "ba-dakku". It's his call, after all.
the change is not in the first syllable, so the name change isn't Burdock to Bardock
Or rather, if it was, we wouldn't be able to tell, based on the kana. In other words, it's a possibility.
By the same token, it could be "dack" rather than "duck". Pronounced the English way, both would become "dakku" in kana.

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Post by desirecampbell » Fri Nov 24, 2006 4:46 am

Well the name is derived from the word burdock. That much we know for certain. If the word burdock is 'ba-dokku' in kana then we can safely say that the character 'ba-dakku' is not named 'Burdock'. The whole point behind changing the name from 'Ba-dokku' to 'Ba-dakku' would be to make the character's name different from 'Burdock'.

Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but I've gathered that...

Bur dock
Ba- do kku
バー ック

But バードック isn't the character's name. It's バーック.
バー ック
So if the character's name is one kana off from 'Burdock' then the romanization of the name should reflect that.


バー ック -- バー ック
Ba- kku -- Ba- kku
Bur ck -- Bur ck

So, the only difference between 'Burdock' and the character's name is and . The other parts of the word are the same, so the only change is that one sound. From this information, I believe the character's name should probably be "Burdack".


Unless I'm wrong somewhere on the Japanese - which I could very easily be. :P

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Post by Olivier Hague » Fri Nov 24, 2006 5:49 am

desirecampbell wrote:The whole point behind changing the name from 'Ba-dokku' to 'Ba-dakku' would be to make the character's name different from 'Burdock'.
That makes the pronunciation different, yes, but was that supposed to make the alphabet spelling different as well? Maybe, but we can't be 100% sure. Ultimately, it's up to the author. If he decides that his character's name is "Burdock" pronounced "ba-dakku" rather than "ba-dokku", it's his choice.

Granted, that's all speculation, but so is what you're doing ("he changed the kana spelling, so that should change the alphabet one as well", "he changed that part of the kana spelling, so that should change that part of the alphabet spelling in that way").
In the end, we don't really know for sure. We can't really know for sure, unless we ask Toriyama. And that's... kinda out of the question.

The way I see it, we have two choices:

1) We don't extrapolate at all.
We use the few known alphabet spellings (i.e. the ones that are in the manga itself... granted they're consistent, naturally), and we stick to the standard romanization for the rest of the names.
Pros: Characters will only have one possible name. Little room for debate. Good for clarity.
Cons: "Who's Furiiza?"

2) We extrapolate.
Pros: "Oh, you meant Freeza!"
Cons: Lots of subjectivity and personal preference. Lots of different methods. Lots of possible spellings. Lots of debates. Lots of arguments.

The way I put it, I guess it looks like I'm in favor of 1)... Well, I'm not really. If anything, I'd be in favor of 2), myself. I'd extrapolate based on the alphabet spellings found on Japanese merchandise. I'd try to keep the extrapolation to a minimum (unknown or inconsistent spellings), but it would still be there.
But that's me. If I were to make my own page about "Dragon Ball", that's what I'd do.
Here, we are talking about a Wiki. And while that doesn't necessarily mean option 2) is out of the question, it certainly makes things quite a bit tricky, in my opinion. I believe the Wikipedia debacle pretty much demonstrated that.
if the character's name is one kana off from 'Burdock' then the romanization of the name should reflect that.
If we establish that as a "rule", we'll run into quite a few problems...

For example, should it really be spelled "Vegeta" when the kana spelling is "beji-ta" (with a long "ji" sound), and the English word "vegetable" is "bejitaburu" (with a short "ji" sound)? Shouldn't the alphabet spelling reflect that change?

And of course, there's the "Bulma" thing I mentioned in another topic. Now, that's an alphabet spelling that turned out to be quite different from the English word its pun was based on ("bloomers") despite the fact the kana spelling is pretty close ("buruma" / "buruma-"). According to our "rule", if the kana spelling is almost identical, the alphabet spelling should reflect that, right?

I understand that you're trying to come up with an alphabet spelling that would "make sense"... but it's still extrapolation. We don't really know. We're assuming. It's subjective, and a bit abitrary.
From this information, I believe the character's name should probably be "Burdack".
So you changed your mind from "Burduck" to "Burdack", huh? ^^
Like I said above, if we don't keep the raw romanization, I'm afraid we'll end up extrapolating anyway (you chose "dack" out of personal preference, for example). That's what makes the whole thing tricky, in my opinion.

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Post by Li'l Lemmy » Fri Nov 24, 2006 6:07 am

What that user posted about anything non-English not being relevant is just stupid.

I'd love to help, but I don't know that merely having all the subtitled DVDs and watched them seventy hundred times qualifies me to be anyone useful (like I'd originally thought)-- because there appears to be a great deal with regards to name spellings and such (Bardock vs. Burdock vs. Burduck) that goes into far greater detail than the DVDs ever did, and all I know about the Japanese versions comes from the subtitles themselves. I know next-to-nothing about the language itself.

Is it still possible to be useful? If not, how else can one contribute?
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