Oh, my. This is what I get for stepping away for a day. This'll take hours to sort through, dunno that I have it in me to do that consistently these days
Kaboom wrote: Tue Oct 22, 2024 8:40 pmStill, though, I didn't think that either "these are the same original word in Japanese" or "the 1996 term had some extra emphasis" even
needed to be restated. My primary focus has been on how these similar terms are
used differently to mean different things.
Sure, but that's kind of what I'm driving at - another reader of this discussion might well look at what you've written and think 'yes, it seems quite logical that lower-level =/= low-class and that they would therefore naturally mean clearly different things that don't overlap", but the fact that we're actually talking about the
same term, and probably Dragon Ball's best-defined
class term when discussing Saiyans, makes that assumption a good deal less safe than your summary was implying, in my opinion. It's true enough that the 2018 Q&A is talking about the strength of children, but then it immediately contextualises it into class assignment and what that means practically for what happens to each Saiyan next. To me that, then, is a logical development in talking about what is broadly the
same thing and not fundamentally different things, since the fact of being a "weak baby" or not is what gets your class assigned in the first place and only a radical change ever shifts that afterwards. Hopefully you can see where I'm coming from there, but if not, then I guess we can chalk it all off and just move on.
Kaboom wrote: Tue Oct 22, 2024 8:40 pmLike, hypothetically, a baby born with a PL of 50 might be deemed "strong enough to raise to fight." But an adult Saiyan with a PL of 500 might still be considered "not strong enough to fight" even though they're already 10x stronger than the impressive baby. It's all relative.
Oh, I definitely agree with you that Saiyans are, if you like, 'graded on a curve' in that way, not least because Raditz freaks out about Gohan being at 710 BP even though it isn't even half as strong as Raditz is; he treats it like it's unheard of for a Saiyan of his age. But then that kind of reinforces that even making those allowances, it still comes down to the numbers to define where those class lines exist. Since Raditz knows Vegeta (and knew him as a kid), it's therefore entirely possible that even
he wasn't that strong at that age, and yet Vegeta's level was such that he essentially got a totally separate social class all to himself. If it were just a matter of 'strong enough to raise to fight (no other consideration)', he wouldn't have been so conceptually sequestered.
Kaboom wrote: Tue Oct 22, 2024 8:40 pmLikewise, Raditz being a "strong enough to raise to fight" baby doesn't automatically mean he grew up to be stronger than his "strong enough to fight" father or any
other particular adult combatant Saiyans, or was otherwise special in any other way.
Certainly true; I agreed with this in my very first reply to you and still agree. But then that's why I don't refer to the 2018 Q&A to answer the question of whether the hypothesis of Raditz being relatively impressive as an adult is likely to be true or not - for that, I look at things like
Broly. And this points off in the general direction of Raditz being pretty strong, not pretty weak. If 1000 BP has Freeza actively wanting you as a combatant, and 2000 BP has Freeza using the description "quite outstanding", then I don't see how 1500 BP (or 1600, if you consider the
Broly promo card info a legit update; no doubt
somebody out there does) - a level squarely in the middle of that range - is
unimpressive.
But again, I also don't actually have a problem with the idea that Bardock is quietly out there being stronger than Raditz and getting overlooked. I just don't see why the reverse (Raditz is simply stronger than Bardock and the vast majority of Saiyans, both relatively speaking at his childhood level and in absolute terms at his adult level) is inherently ridiculous either. To me, these are pretty equivalent likelihoods. Like, what are your thoughts on where Bardock's at? Do you have an estimate of what kind of general BP you might consider Bardock to have when he's on Planet Cereal?
Yasai9001 wrote: Wed Oct 23, 2024 11:27 am Would you agree that the lower-class Saiyans who are sent off as infiltration children and come back having completed their mission would still be considered lower-class instead of being now considered an 'upper-ranking' combatant? Or do you think they would be considered upper-ranking combatants at this point? [...] I'm just looking for confirmation, really. Could it be plausible that a lower-class infiltration child remain one unless they prove otherwise and be put to work with a weaker, lower-class team, or do they get unofficially classified as an upper-ranking combatant for having avoided the Galactic Patrol AND getting the job done.
Yes, I think they're still lower-class/lower-level warriors. It's just that their function changes from being a castaway (non-combatant and, furthermore, basically a non-factor) to becoming a combatant who can then be actively put to work; completing the conquest of a planet thus retrospectively becomes, in effect, their first action in that job. To my reading, changing their actual
class would require a further remarkable increase in BP above a certain (not explicitly defined) level. So I would say that most Saiyan combat teams are made of low-level combatants, understood in this way.
Ah. Well, thank you very much for coming back to me with this, but that's rather less persuasive than I had anticipated it might be, from the phrasing of your initial post - you had said "
Bardock is also referred to be a "upper-class warrior" and was still labeled a "low-class Saiyan"." This led me to think that you perhaps had a source where Bardock is described as "
joukyuu senshi (上級戦士)" while he is otherwise consistently described as "
kakyuu senshi (下級戦士). But the term for "in the upper ranks" is different; it is
jyoui (上位), which isn't necessarily indicative of a formal banding. If you come to the text with that understanding pre-formed, then I guess you can see it that way, but if you don't, it's not apparent to me that there's an obviously compelling reason to do so. It only need mean that Bardock's own position is high among his combatant peers in the low-class. Since the source goes on to say that the way to change class is to notably raise BP, all that needs to mean is that Bardock has more of it than most other low-level warrior combatants, even though he's not so strong that he can join the select few combatants who occupy the next class up.
Grimlock wrote: Wed Oct 23, 2024 11:54 amYou are not really disagreeing with me, you are disgreeing with Toriyama. That text is perfectly clear. It establishes two subdivisions within the "Low Class" division: the "upper rank" and the "lower rank".
My issue here is that you're assuming that the 2018 Q&A is somewhere saying that the children born
already belong to the Low Class and
then they are split into these subdivisions, but as far as I can tell it
doesn't actually say that anywhere. To suggest it does requires assuming what you're setting out to prove, partly by eliding different terminology from a different Q&A that isn't obviously talking about the same thing ("Bardock personally ranks highly in his class" =/= "Classes have different formal sub-ranks and this different Q&A is specifically discussing these and not the classes themselves").
I don't think that reading is warranted from the texts we have. This Q&A merely says that children are assessed and then simply split into their classes, which then leads to different initial results. So from the text itself, I don't see that being a more natural reading than the (far simpler) "here's what happens to one (lower) class, here's what happens to the other (upper) class". If you already come to the text with your understanding, you'll find nothing to specifically address and contradict that understanding, but taken on its own terms, it also isn't saying what you're claiming it does.
You may be thinking that it's inherently more likely that it describes the totality of the "low-class" and subdivisions therein because they are (to adopt
Kaboom's phrase) "the 99%". But I don't see why that would necessarily follow, since the 2018 Q&A has no qualms at all about saying what training is given to "a select few" Saiyan children in answer to a different question (so it's perfectly comfortable talking about privileged and tiny minorities as opposed to what happens to most Saiyans in any case - so why not for this question also?), and the "1%" class above "low-class" (here termed "upper-class") would also require their life-path to be described; they do after all exist. So I don't see any reason why this doesn't just do that.
So for me, this isn't a question of "disagreeing with Toriyama", it's just understanding the text differently to the way you paraphrase it.
Grimlock wrote: Wed Oct 23, 2024 11:54 amWe also know what generally happens to combatants who aren't fit for battles: "
repeatedly saved from danger by Bardock". And we also also know what generally happens if Bardock isn't there to save them: they die.
Sure, but my point is that in all the sources we have, BP (even if adjusted/weighted differently for stages of physical development like childhood) is what is actually said to be determinative of class stratification for Saiyans, and a noteworthy change in BP is the only thing we know of that is said to change what your actual Class is. Even taking your favoured idea of "ranking", Bardock only "ranks" as high as he does within his Class because of his BP, and it's only the limits of his BP that stops him from entering another class. His "ranking" is only said to be determined by that.
But Gine's case isn't about a change in BP, which is obviously high enough for her to start as a combatant in Bardock's squad - she isn't taken off it and made a non-combatant because of anything to do with that metric, it isn't (for instance) said she gets weaker than she was starting out (it's because she's crap at
actually fighting), so it isn't obviously clear that the change is a class change. To follow your example and refer to the real world for an analogy, changing jobs does not in and of itself mean that your social class has changed (case in point: in my country, we just had a politician get roundly mocked for saying that she "became working-class" at one point in her life because she got a McJob; also taking my own case, I'm not in gainful employment this year because I need to do domestic and childcare duties instead - does that really affect my social class standing at all? No, not really). So if what's happening to Gine takes place along a totally different axis of assessment to how class stratification is said to be defined by her society, it is not at all clear to me that it should be understood as a change of class status. So, I don't interpret it that way.
GreatSaiyaman123 wrote: Wed Oct 23, 2024 1:05 pmSorry, it's always a pleasure to discuss with you, but I think most worthwhile points were already made in the
Terminology Hang-Up: Saiyan "Classes" VS "Levels" thread. I'm on Kaboom's side but I do admit I'm jamming sources (Except the Daizenshuu, that one is out) and that it's the best way to get the full picture. Putting both Q&A's together
this is what I get too.
Good to have you back in the topic! Some, uh,
things have happened since you were last in it
To be clear, I don't actually have a problem with the use of multiple sources (obviously; that would be unreasonable), but this whole thing started with a statement that doing so and understanding what comes from that in a different way to how others may understand it is apparently
very not cool, so I opted not to do that for simplicity's sake in making my point. My only real problem has been the way in which the disagreement has been presented here, not the fact of the disagreement itself (or, indeed, how it is arrived at - the reasoning is all fair enough, even though I think I have good reason to disagree with a lot of the premises).
GreatSaiyaman123 wrote: Wed Oct 23, 2024 1:05 pmRaditz in the top 10 of middle class doesn't quite add up. Comparisons to other races aside (Since Oozaru form is the true power of the Saiyans), Raditz isn't even half of Nappa's power. What's the cutting point between lower and upper ranks? 1,000? Because in DBS:B that was the bare minimum for a proper warrior. Are all these top 10 Saiyans concentrated in the same 2-3 squads?
Sure, I think probably
something like that - the tip of a spear, if you like, sent to crack the hardest worlds, with the lion's share of other squads being lower-level combatants on less difficult worlds (or, if on a relatively difficult world where an upper-level squad isn't available, multiple lower-level squads being sent, ideally with an Oozaru option if possible, particularly if the job needs doing quickly; Cereal would be just such an example of that).
It's perhaps a little speculative to say so but I think it's reasonable to suppose that with stronger opposition and less likelihood of backup, those upper-level squads in particular would probably have some pretty vicious attrition rates among their weaker members that would need a continual influx of talent (where, for instance, are the other two members of Nappa's squad that we see in
Broly?), which would help keep the overall number of Saiyans belonging to that class low, in addition to Saiyans that strong just being intrinsically a bit rare. There's also a bit of wiggle room because that source says "10
or so", so we could be talking 13 or 14 (enough for maybe 4 full strength squads, each perhaps containing at least one very promising child combatant, and a couple of others in senior combat roles close to the King, perhaps). Members of those squads who survive long enough to be (if you like) journeyman combatants could aggregate some pretty fearsome BPs, like Nappa has (or Paragus, if you think his present day 4200 BP in
Broly bears much resemblance to what his BP would have been 46 years prior).
As for where a "cut-off point" might be - as I mentioned above in reply to
Kaboom, I think the number would be on a curve relative to the Saiyan's physical development, but I think, for a full-grown adult Saiyan combatant, over 1000 BP is as good a "round-number-that-we-know-means-something-to-anybody-at-all" guess as any. Partly it depends on how you frame that: you can look at it as 'the bare minimum of a proper warrior', but you could also look at it as 'the level at which Freeza takes interest and decides he actively wants you'; he's not the only one who uses it as a benchmark, either: Nappa uses it quite instinctively when he and Vegeta come to Earth and start looking at who the strongest people are, so there's that consideration also.
But it could also just as easily be, say, 1500 BP, with Raditz hanging on in the big boy class by his fingertips by the time he's an adult, having previously seemed more safely promising as a child with room to continue to develop further within his class.
GreatSaiyaman123 wrote: Wed Oct 23, 2024 1:05 pmI'm not saying he should be strong because I like him
To be honest, I can't help but feel that there is often just a
smidgen of that going on whenever Bardock is in view - not with you, specifically, but I think a lot of what Bardock has going for him in discussion
generally is a continuing "vibe" in the minds of the fanbase since way back when that makes for an almost instinctive "lean" in that direction - particularly when comparing him with a character like Raditz, who's been dunked on for the longest time. While it doesn't necessarily apply to anyone here, I do find it amusing to consider that a lot of the people most firmly wedded to that instinct also tend to really dislike Bardock being presented as "special" in any way.
