After all these years, I hear that Frieza's PL was wrong?

omegacwa · Post by **omegacwa** » Mon Apr 07, 2008 1:39 pm

Maybe it was Nappa's Base Power?

I always assumed Nappa was at around 8000, because why would it be a big surprise that Goku's Power was "over 8000" if Nappa wasn't near that.

ect5150 · Post by **ect5150** » Mon Apr 07, 2008 4:30 pm

DemonKingPiccolo wrote:*Goku then used the KKx10 and later the KKx20, and he was still no match for Freeza (who was only at 50%). Goku's PL during his fight with Freeza was stated to be 3,000,000. This puts his KKx10 at 30,000,000, and KKx20 at 60,000,000.

Slightly off-topic question...

If we are to multiply the powerlevel by the level of the Kaio-ken as seen above (and this is common), then what does the first Kaio-ken level do?

I mean, back when Goku fought Vegeta and he was worried about using a Kaio-kenX2, I see people say that his power level is 8,000... so KKX2 gives us 16,000. But what does Kaio-ken level 1 do? 8,000 x 1? (which is retarded)

If this is the case, then I am officially announcing I can perform the Kaio-ken in real life!

Tyro · Post by **Tyro** » Mon Apr 07, 2008 4:45 pm

ect5150 wrote:
DemonKingPiccolo wrote:*Goku then used the KKx10 and later the KKx20, and he was still no match for Freeza (who was only at 50%). Goku's PL during his fight with Freeza was stated to be 3,000,000. This puts his KKx10 at 30,000,000, and KKx20 at 60,000,000.
Slightly off-topic question...

If we are to multiply the powerlevel by the level of the Kaio-ken as seen above (and this is common), then what does the first Kaio-ken level do?

I mean, back when Goku fought Vegeta and he was worried about using a Kaio-kenX2, I see people say that his power level is 8,000... so KKX2 gives us 16,000. But what does Kaio-ken level 1 do? 8,000 x 1? (which is retarded)

If this is the case, then I am officially announcing I can perform the Kaio-ken in real life!

The Kaio-ken was stated to double the user's power. It's stated in this video. Just give it a minute. This (the text box where the statement is made) was before Goku ever spoke the words "Kaio-ken" and "times two" in the same sentence.

But now there's an idea that Kaio-ken doubles the user's power while Kaio-ken x2 triples it, because it's twice the Kaio-ken. For example.

Goku: 100
Goku (100) + Kaio-ken (100) = 200
Goku (100) + Kaio-ken x2 (100 x 2) = 300

But I'm not really into that idea myself.

Rocketman · Post by **Rocketman** » Mon Apr 07, 2008 6:03 pm

I think Kaioken and Kaioken x2 are the same thing. "Times 2" just got added in once Goku went beyond it with x3, x4, and x10.

Just like we now call the war between 1914 and 1918 "World War One", when they used to call it "The World War".

Post by **desirecampbell** » Mon Apr 07, 2008 6:06 pm

Rocketman wrote:I think Kaioken and Kaioken x2 are the same thing. "Times 2" just got added in once Goku went beyond it with x3, x4, and x10.

Just like we now call the war between 1914 and 1918 "World War One", when they used to call it "The World War".

"The Great War", I think. Anyway, is there anything stating that Kaioken doubles power? I can't remember exactly, but it seems like it did.

Tyro · Post by **Tyro** » Mon Apr 07, 2008 6:09 pm

desirecampbell wrote:Anyway, is there anything stating that Kaioken doubles power? I can't remember exactly, but it seems like it did.

Tyro's last post wrote:The Kaio-ken was stated to double the user's power. It's stated in this video. Just give it a minute. This (the text box where the statement is made) was before Goku ever spoke the words "Kaio-ken" and "times two" in the same sentence.

Rocketman · Post by **Rocketman** » Mon Apr 07, 2008 6:16 pm

desirecampbell wrote:"The Great War", I think.

Both, actually. Back then, the "Great War" was more often used for Napoleon's wars. It got appropriated, but "World War" was also common.

And some chaps were calling it the First World War even in 1919, so...

Anyway, is there anything stating that Kaioken doubles power? I can't remember exactly, but it seems like it did.

I'm not sure, actually. Goku uses the standard Kaioken against Vegeta and is outmatched by him, which works fine with a x2 boost (8,000->16,000). And Ginyu records his power as going from about 90,000 to 180,000.

ect5150 · Post by **ect5150** » Mon Apr 07, 2008 6:28 pm

Rocketman wrote:I think Kaioken and Kaioken x2 are the same thing.

If they are the same, there is no need to differentiate between the two (but we clearly do).

The wars are not the same, thus the need for separate names. The war analogy fits the Super Saiyan level names better. There wasn't a need for numbers until Goku changed into SSJ3 (or even when Gohan turned SSJ2).

Rocketman · Post by **Rocketman** » Mon Apr 07, 2008 7:37 pm

ect5150 wrote:The wars are not the same, thus the need for separate names.

Uh? The World War and World War One are the same thing.

Pizzaguylol · Post by **Pizzaguylol** » Mon Apr 07, 2008 8:58 pm

I always thought Kaioken was a 1.5 multiplier of their power level. Example:

Base = 100
Kaioken = 150
Kaioken x2 = 200
Kaioken x3 = 300, etc...

Anyways, the Freeza's PL being at 1% thing was just some BS invented for the dub back in the day. Thats not what he really said.

Edit: Also, isn't it possible that maybe 120,000,000 was a typo of some kind? Just reaching, I guess.

Sun_Wukong · Post by **Sun_Wukong** » Tue Apr 08, 2008 10:21 am

Tyro wrote:
Sun_Wukong wrote:God oh God I hate hate hate PL discussions.
Then...leave and/or don't read said thread(s) beyond the title because you undoubtedly knew what was inside?

Power Level discussions are the thorn in the side of DBZ fandom. Seriously, it doesnt matter if Freeza was stronger, he screwed him self over.

jjgp1112 · Post by **jjgp1112** » Tue Apr 08, 2008 11:28 am

For the third damn time, as shown by the clip, A NORMAL KAIOKEN DOUBLES YOUR STRENGTH.

ect5150 · Post by **ect5150** » Tue Apr 08, 2008 1:47 pm

jjgp1112 wrote:For the third damn time, as shown by the clip, A NORMAL KAIOKEN DOUBLES YOUR STRENGTH.

If the clip is a direct translation then it doubles the power and the numbers are just an inconsistency within the series.

ect5150 · Post by **ect5150** » Tue Apr 08, 2008 1:50 pm

Rocketman wrote:
ect5150 wrote:The wars are not the same, thus the need for separate names.
Uh? The World War and World War One are the same thing.

Sorry for the confusion, my comment was in reference to WWII as well. They didn't use the name WWI until WWII came about.

Rocketman · Post by **Rocketman** » Tue Apr 08, 2008 2:08 pm

ect5150 wrote:Sorry for the confusion, my comment was in reference to WWII as well. They didn't use the name WWI until WWII came about.

No, some people were calling it the "First World War" even in 1919.

Post by **desirecampbell** » Tue Apr 08, 2008 2:15 pm

Rocketman wrote:
ect5150 wrote:Sorry for the confusion, my comment was in reference to WWII as well. They didn't use the name WWI until WWII came about.
No, some people were calling it the "First World War" even in 1919.

"References or it didn't happen".

Onikage725 · Post by **Onikage725** » Tue Apr 08, 2008 2:17 pm

If you watch the fight with Vegeta, it seems like Kaioken and x2 are two different things. But, against Ginyu, I'm pretty sure he simply said "Kaioken" and his PL went from 90k to 180k, right? Like, Ginyu clicks the scouter when he says it, and the first reading is 90k?

omegacwa wrote:Maybe it was Nappa's Base Power?

I always assumed Nappa was at around 8000, because why would it be a big surprise that Goku's Power was "over 8000" if Nappa wasn't near that.

It couldn't really be a base power, cuz Nappa didn't know how to hide/amplify his power the way the Z senshi could. "Powering up" for guys like him was just a manner of focusing available ki for use. Remember that the bad guys could power up, but whenever someone did so and the scouter readout changed they thought the things were malfunctioning.

EDIT- the linked post on why the PLs must have been so high lost me around the part where they start talking about Vegeta being impressed with the resolute Goku. Since when does looking at Goku before a fight give you any indication of his true power? If someone had a scouter at that point, he could still be clocking at 5k, or hell even 5. Whatever Vegeta was sensing from Goku, it wasn't some true numerical measure of Goku's power. In the previous saga Goku eventually measures higher than Vegeta (thanks to Kaioken), yet he was far under when he first showed up flaunting a 5k, or even a slightly over 8k against Nappa. This didnt stop Kuririn and Gohan from being awed upon his arrival and hopeful of his chances, despite the facts that Vegeta couldn't mask his power yet and he was much stronger than 5-8k.

Rocketman · Post by **Rocketman** » Tue Apr 08, 2008 2:26 pm

desirecampbell wrote:
Rocketman wrote:
ect5150 wrote:Sorry for the confusion, my comment was in reference to WWII as well. They didn't use the name WWI until WWII came about.
No, some people were calling it the "First World War" even in 1919.
"References or it didn't happen".

[Diary entry, September 10, 1918]: We discussed the right name of the war. I said the we called it now The War, but that this could not last. The Napoleonic War was The Great War. To call it The German War was too much flattery for the Boche. I suggested The World War as a shade better title, and finally we mutually agreed to call it The First World War in order to prevent the millennium folk from forgetting that the history of the world was the history of war. - Charles A. Repington, journalist for The Times.

"The First World War, 1914–1918" (1920) "The Yale Book of Quotations" (2006) Yale University Press

Xyex · Post by **Xyex** » Tue Apr 08, 2008 2:43 pm

The Daizenshuu numbers are wrong, however. KKx20 Goku can't be at 60 million if 50% Freeza is at 60 million. Otherwise Freeza wouldn't have had such an easy time stopping Goku's KKx20 Kamehameha~

My thoughts:

Goku - 2,000,000
+ KKx20 - 40,000,000
+ Kamehameha - 45,000,000
+ SSJ - 100,000,000

Freeza - 530,000
+ Final Form - 2,120,000
+ 50% Power - 47,500,000
+ 100% Power - 95,000,000

Onikage725 · Post by **Onikage725** » Tue Apr 08, 2008 2:50 pm

Xyex wrote:The Daizenshuu numbers are wrong, however. KKx20 Goku can't be at 60 million if 50% Freeza is at 60 million. Otherwise Freeza wouldn't have had such an easy time stopping Goku's KKx20 Kamehameha~

Heh, my personal pet peeve is still how the manga and anime state that saibaimen are even with Raditz, and the Daizenshuu gives different figures. On top of which, it puts Raditz at a level where Gohan's headbutt and Piccolo's Makankosappo should have been manageable (1500), yet the second something clocked 1300 or over Raditz soiled himself.