Saibamen/Raditz

[Terra-jin]

I can't read Japanese, but that second kanji after the last zero looks suspiciously like a less-than sign. Now I don't know if that would actually be a greater-than sign, given the opposite way Japanese text is read compared to Western text, but I think it is.

[Tatsunoboshi Horoko]

おいおいべジータのやつ戦闘力が30000近くまで上昇したぞ！
"Hey, look, that Vegeta's battle power has increased close to 30,000!"

And then you have Butta making "in awe" sounds.

That's from the first page of the same thread you got that pic from. The translation's no different aside from the 20000 being a 30000.

[Chibi Mystic Gohan]

I can't read Japanese, but that second kanji after the last zero looks suspiciously like a less-than sign. Now I don't know if that would actually be a greater-than sign, given the opposite way Japanese text is read compared to Western text, but I think it is.

It's the hiragana character ku, actually.

For what it's worth, here's the translation I posted on MFG recently:

"Hey, hey! That bastard Vegeta's battle power's risen to nearly 30,000!"

[Akira]

Okay, so Piccolo at max power was stronger than Raditz, yet had a difficult time beating him. Oh-kay, now I get it.

So what Nappa says as opposed to what we saw happen is the end all be all on the subject? Vegeta makes a comment that Raditz was defeated by "weaklings with battle powers barely over a thousand." So, Vegeta considered Piccolo's 1330 to be "barely" over a thousand? I guess when you and your partner are in the tens of thousands of Battle power, sure, but that also means their estimates can be off by a few hundred, does it not?

Piccolo was maxed at 1330 when he powered up for the Makosensappa. Raditz was able to dodge it. If he was only 1200, I find that a little harder to believe. Also, if he was only 1200 and Gohan was 1307 in raged state, he would have likely blown right through Raditz's chest and killed him then and there. Raditz at 1500 is the only thing that makes sense in terms of that fight.

I readily stated up front that most battle power discussions are subjective and open to personal interpretation, but that early in the Manga, most of the battle powers were given and it is hard not to follow the evidence and draw pretty damn close conclusions.

[Onikage725]

Okay, so Piccolo at max power was stronger than Raditz, yet had a difficult time beating him. Oh-kay, now I get it.

Piccolo didn't power up to that level. He focused that much power into the attack. Raditz notes this, how they can focus their ki for temporary gains. Piccolo himself didn't get any "stronger," he just channeled a greater ki attack than he normally would have been able to.

Piccolo was maxed at 1330 when he powered up for the Makosensappa. Raditz was able to dodge it. If he was only 1200, I find that a little harder to believe. Also, if he was only 1200 and Gohan was 1307 in raged state, he would have likely blown right through Raditz's chest and killed him then and there. Raditz at 1500 is the only thing that makes sense in terms of that fight.

You're putting an awful lot into Raditz simply dodging an attack. You're completely ignoring the fact that Raditz said he could NOT defend against an attack of that level. Not "this could be tough" or "this may be close" or "I'm gonna have to go all out." Could. Not. Stop it. Options: Dodge or die. A little odd, if he was in fact stronger than the attack (by about as many power points as a weighted down Piccolo). And aren't we also lead to believe that his walking away from Gohan's attack is due to his armor? Even still, he's weakened to a point that a ridiculously injured Goku is able to completely immobilize him. So the attack did quite a bit of damage, despite being soaked by protective gear.

I readily stated up front that most battle power discussions are subjective and open to personal interpretation, but that early in the Manga, most of the battle powers were given and it is hard not to follow the evidence and draw pretty damn close conclusions.

The manga tells us 1200. Scans may be located at the beginning of this thread. So I guess by your logic we're done here, right?

I'll admit the Nappa figure is more subjective, but I still have trouble on the grounds of Freeza's gang not being that knowledgeable on power concealment. Granted, Nappa gathers power here and there, but I personally always saw it as him basically revving the engine, or in the case of against Goku, re-filling the reservoir. It's hard for me to fathom a guy Piccolo and Kuririn at one point played ping pong with would suddenly be dead even with Goku simply by clearing his head and grunting for 10 seconds.

Didn't Vegeta think the scouters where unreliable? He may not have believed the result he saw. Nappa didn't. Has anyone ever factored "denial" into this? Vegeta reacts with sever disgust when he decides to step in. The mere thought of a "throw-away" like Goku coming to blows with (and winning against!) elites was something he couldn't fathom.

And... what the hell does Nappa actually DO? The ONLY blow he actually lands on Goku, Goku LET him land. Just because Goku had to put a little effort into dodging a couple of blows doesn't put them at dead even on the power scale. Since when does someone have to be equal with his opponent to do battle? Tenshinhan vs Goku (second time, Ma Junior Saga) anyone? Decent length, back and forth fight. Goku took some solid hits, and Ten had the upper hand here and there. But when all was said and done, Goku was clearly the superior of the two. How about Vegeta holding back first form Freeza? Or Freeza going to blows with SSJ Goku? The Daizenshuu says that Goku is 30 million point stronger than Freeza, yet when Goku fires a Kamehame with the express stated intent to kill, Freeza's throws up an aura and denies him. Oh, and how about minor little scuffle of no importance later on... Goku vs Perfect Cell? So let's not forget things like "experience," "endurance," and "willpower."

[Rocketman]

It's hard for me to fathom a guy Piccolo and Kuririn at one point played ping pong with would suddenly be dead even with Goku simply by clearing his head and grunting for 10 seconds.

Goku himself says the fight could take forever.

[Onikage725]

Goku also wasn't using lethal force (unlike Nappa). When Nappa had to back down, Goku let him. After having to lay him out with Kaio-ken (which he wasn't planning on using to take down Nappa, and only had to because he had to stop Nappa from killing Gohan and Kuririn within a limited time frame), Goku's all "take him an go."

[Kendamu]

Does anyone know where to begin with learning the Japanese language?

College.

[Pain]

Does anyone know where to begin with learning the Japanese language?

College.

Well, what I do is take notes on all of the words that I see. But I only do the small words. It's better to start out small while trying to learn a complex language like Japanese. But yeah, College will be a BIG help.

[Herms]

The manga tells us 1200. Scans may be located at the beginning of this thread. So I guess by your logic we're done here, right?

The manga says that the Saibaimen, with battle powers of 1,200, are, going only by power, enough to rival Raditz. It never says that Raditz himself had a battle power of exactly 1,200.

Well, what I do is take notes on all of the words that I see. But I only do the small words. It's better to start out small while trying to learn a complex language like Japanese. But yeah, College will be a BIG help.

If you seriously want to learn Japanese, I'd recommend learning the basics of grammer and the writing system first of all, before going into vocabulary. Those are the two biggest differences between English and Japanese, so it's best to get them out of the way first.

[Onikage725]

The manga says that the Saibaimen, with battle powers of 1,200, are, going only by power, enough to rival Raditz. It never says that Raditz himself had a battle power of exactly 1,200.

It's a fairly easy inference. The Daizenshuu gives us this 1500 we have in dispute, right? Well, the Daizenshuu also says that Yamcha was at 1480. Weaker than what it claims Raditz to be. He owns a Saibaiman. So clearly, according to the Daizenshuu, 1500 does not rival 1200. So, there is some discrepancy between the two sources. The manga and anime tell us the Saibaimen were at 1200 and comparable to Raditz. Raditz tells us that attacks above 1300 are outside of his range. It adds up.

[Chibi Mystic Gohan]

The manga tells us 1200. Scans may be located at the beginning of this thread. So I guess by your logic we're done here, right?

The manga says that the Saibaimen, with battle powers of 1,200, are, going only by power, enough to rival Raditz. It never says that Raditz himself had a battle power of exactly 1,200.

Piccolo's Makankôsappô's combat power of 1330 and Gohan's enraged combat power of 1307 both scared Raditz. He even said that he'd have been done for if he'd been hit by that first Makankôsappô. So it's safe to assume that he's anywhere between 1200 and 1300. I think that 1200 was probably an estimation of the Saibaiman's power. No one has a combat power that exact, they just start rounding when they reach the thousands, apparently.

[mrkaizoku]

Didn't Vegeta think the scouters where unreliable? He may not have believed the result he saw. Nappa didn't. Has anyone ever factored "denial" into this?

I love it. They always cry that the scouters are こしょう. I don't think that there was one single case where the scouters were wrong. It makes me laugh every single time.


To Saiyanprincess:

If you are serious about trying to learn Japanese I would start with the basics. Start with memorizing Hiragana and Katakana. Practice reading and writing them. There are many books, and websites out there dedicated to this. One book that I would recommend is "A Guide to Writing KANJI & KANA" published by TUTTLE. It gives you pronunciation as well as stroke order. If you have a Nintendo DS I suggest getting one of the Kakitori-kun games. It grades you on how well you reproduce Kana and Kanji, and you don't waste paper. I wish that I had one of these games back when I first started learning. It is honestly one of the most useful tools I've come across.

[Xyex]

Okay, so Piccolo at max power was stronger than Raditz, yet had a difficult time beating him. Oh-kay, now I get it.

Piccolo's maximum power was only 408 at the time.

Piccolo was maxed at 1330 when he powered up for the Makosensappa.

Piccolo didn't power up for the Special Beam Cannon, he channeled the energy into the attack and made it that strong.

Raditz was able to dodge it. If he was only 1200, I find that a little harder to believe. Also, if he was only 1200 and Gohan was 1307 in raged state, he would have likely blown right through Raditz's chest and killed him then and there. Raditz at 1500 is the only thing that makes sense in terms of that fight.

Why? It's just an attack. And he barely doged it. Makes sense to me. Meanwhile if her were 1,500 an attack of 1,330 wouldn't have scared him at all. Gohan's headbutt wouldn't have done more than sting. But it nearly killed him. If the armor hadn't taken some of the force out of the blow and helped to shield him it would have killed him.

It's hard for me to fathom a guy Piccolo and Kuririn at one point played ping pong with would suddenly be dead even with Goku simply by clearing his head and grunting for 10 seconds.

It's because he wasn't using as much power back then. They can't supress their power but they don't have to fight at full power constantly. They can reduce how much energy is 'on the surface', it just doesn't alter the number on the scouter. The basic difference is someone with a supressed power who reads in at 500 is actually at 500 while someone who's just relaxed can read in at 5,000 but be knocked around as though they were at only 500.

[Akira]

So attacks have their own battle powers now? Surely Piccolo had to be, even briefly, capable of focusing his power to 1330, to unleash an attack of 1330. You don't expect me to believe that 480 was his max total and was able to output an attack more than double that?

Piccolo Daimao was 260 and so was teen Goku when they fought each other the first time. So after 3 years of training for the 23rd Budokai, and five years between that and the arrival of Raditz, Piccolo had only managed 408 and Goku 416? Come on..

The sensible answer is that they were capable of powering up to 1330(Piccolo/Makosensappa) and roughly 1000 (Goku/Kamehameha), but just were not powerful enough to mainatain that powered up state for very long, hence why they could only go that high for their ki attacks back then.

You have to consider your logic in the context of what came before and what came after in terms of the series as a whole. We never see anyone else just magically producing attacks over double their supposed max power without being that power anywhere else in the series.

I agree that Piccolo could only make that attack that strong, and his normal fighting power was not that strong at the time, but for the brief few moments he prepared for the attack, he had to be at that power to produce that power, did he not?

[Onikage725]

It's because he wasn't using as much power back then. They can't supress their power but they don't have to fight at full power constantly. They can reduce how much energy is 'on the surface', it just doesn't alter the number on the scouter. The basic difference is someone with a supressed power who reads in at 500 is actually at 500 while someone who's just relaxed can read in at 5,000 but be knocked around as though they were at only 500.

I agree with you in general, and even that 4,000 may have been too low. I just don't think 8,000 + is likely. "Over 8,000" is a little vague, but Goku can't have had a PL of close to or at 9,000. If he did, a Kaio-ken would have been sufficient to keep up with Vegeta. So he had to be on the lower end of 8,000. I also don't see the fight as showing Nappa as Goku's equal. He may have been tough enough that a quick win was out of the question, but that could just as well be like Freeza's situation. Strong enough to put up a good fight, but basically destined to lose. I also generally see Nappa's power up there as a re-fill/focus thing more than a "let me show you my REAL power" thing (like Vegeta's "power of a super elite" bit later on). He'd been using power all afternoon, since his earlier power up (I don't count his charge up before killing Piccolo, because he expended that in the blast). He was, in my opinion, over-extended when he tried to go at Goku at first.

So attacks have their own battle powers now?

If a fighter knows how to amplify their ki in that way, yup.

Surely Piccolo had to be, even briefly, capable of focusing his power to 1330, to unleash an attack of 1330. You don't expect me to believe that 480 was his max total and was able to output an attack more than double that?

If that was the case, he would have just channeled the energy to himself and beat the crap out of Raditz. You're making it sound like Piccolo knows something akin to Kaio-ken. If his own personal power was that high, he would have layed Raditz out in single combat. Certainly he and Goku attacking together would have overwhelmed Raditz. Also, considering the strength we get to see from the Kamehameha, in your theory Piccolo was stronger than Goku. Outside of his one technique (with the humongous charge time as a defect) this was not the case.

Piccolo Daimao was 260 and so was teen Goku when they fought each other the first time. So after 3 years of training for the 23rd Budokai, and five years between that and the arrival of Raditz, Piccolo had only managed 408 and Goku 416? Come on..

Dragon Ball growth is exponential, and also seems to cap at certain levels. Something extreme happens to let a character blow through a plateau and they start to make gains at a higher level. Your statement would be similar to asking "how did Goku only get to 8,000 in a year when Vegeta was able to ascend in the RoSaT?" Also keep in mind the levels of training. In order to move through the low thousands, Goku had to master 10x gravity and then train with a god. To push 100 thousand, he had to train in 100x gravity. There's only so much improvement he could have made doing during peace time, doing katas on mountain cliffs.

The sensible answer is that they were capable of powering up to 1330(Piccolo/Makosensappa) and roughly 1000 (Goku/Kamehameha), but just were not powerful enough to mainatain that powered up state for very long, hence why they could only go that high for their ki attacks back then.

Now it sounds like we are arguing semantics. Whether just the beam was 1330, or if Piccolo was 1330 but only capable of firing it in the form of the beam... does it really matter?

You have to consider your logic in the context of what came before and what came after in terms of the series as a whole. We never see anyone else just magically producing attacks over double their supposed max power without being that power anywhere else in the series.

It happens plenty of times. We just don't always have scouters around to throw the numbers at us. Freeza being able to plow through Goku's Kamehameha despite Goku being the stronger warrior. Vegeta, who couldn't even budge Cell, being able to blow chunks off of his body with the Final Flash. Ditto Goku with his Kamehameha in the Cell Games. A slightly different case, but the Kikoho is sometimes stronger than it has a right to be. Also, Vegeta's Garlic Gun, which took an x4 Kaio-ken-fueled Kamehameha to overcome, despite Vegeta's supposed power of 18,000.

I agree that Piccolo could only make that attack that strong, and his normal fighting power was not that strong at the time, but for the brief few moments he prepared for the attack, he had to be at that power to produce that power, did he not?

Can someone with access throw up Raditz's line about it? Doesn't he basically explain this? Something about being able to temporarily raise their power by focusing on a single point (that may be the dub line though, I don't recall).

[Xyex]

So attacks have their own battle powers now?

Always have. It's called charging.

Surely Piccolo had to be, even briefly, capable of focusing his power to 1330, to unleash an attack of 1330. You don't expect me to believe that 480 was his max total and was able to output an attack more than double that?

Yes. 408 was his maximum power level. But, as Raditz himself stated, he was able to create attacks stronger than that by focusing.

Piccolo Daimao was 260 and so was teen Goku when they fought each other the first time. So after 3 years of training for the 23rd Budokai, and five years between that and the arrival of Raditz, Piccolo had only managed 408 and Goku 416? Come on..

Well, Toriyama didn't put any thought into the DB era powers when he gave Goku and Piccolo their levels in Z.

But for an in-universe reason, powers didn't increase fast during Dragonball. I mean, look at the 21st Budokai through to Piccolo. Goku's in the 130s at the 21st Budokai. 180 at the 22nd. And probably low to mid 300s at the 23rd. The biggest jump was the 180 to 260 which took special means to acheive.

The sensible answer is that they were capable of powering up to 1330(Piccolo/Makosensappa) and roughly 1000 (Goku/Kamehameha), but just were not powerful enough to mainatain that powered up state for very long, hence why they could only go that high for their ki attacks back then.

You have to consider your logic in the context of what came before and what came after in terms of the series as a whole. We never see anyone else just magically producing attacks over double their supposed max power without being that power anywhere else in the series.

The sensible answer is what is presented in the manga, that they can charge up attacks more powerful than they themselves are.

Besides, what 'back then'? 'Never see it again'? Charged attacks are repeated through out the series. Roshi did it in Dragonball. Vegeta does it against Goku and then Recoome. Goku did it against Freeza. Vegeta did it again against Perfect Cell. Super Perfect Cell and SSJ2 Gohan did it against each other. Gohan did it against the Buu egg. And don't forget about all three Spirit Bombs.

I agree that Piccolo could only make that attack that strong, and his normal fighting power was not that strong at the time, but for the brief few moments he prepared for the attack, he had to be at that power to produce that power, did he not?

No, he didn't. The manga even says so.

Can someone with access throw up Raditz's line about it? Doesn't he basically explain this? Something about being able to temporarily raise their power by focusing on a single point (that may be the dub line though, I don't recall).

I don't remember the exact line either but it's something along the lines of "They can focus their energy to increase the power of their attacks" or something like that.

[Akira]

I am not disagreeing with you guys. I even said that they obviously could not maintain such a battle power for straight up hand to hand combat, they did not have the energy for that. What I AM saying is that for that brief moment, he would have to be at that power to output that power. The charging up of their ki makes sense, but to output that power, they have to be at that power for the Ki attack.

Yes, Vegeta did it when he fought Goku. His hand to hand battle max was 18000, but when he charged for the Gallick Gun he increased to 24000 for that attack. That is why the Kaioken powered Kamehameha was in direct conflict with it, as it was also 24000 (8000 x 3 Kaioken =24000).

I am not denying that such power was only reachable by charging the attacks, but I am denying that they launched a more powerful attack while only at the previous power. The charge up took most of their power, and is why they were often called desperation moves. When Raditz scanned Piccolo and got a reading of 1330, it highlighted the outline of Piccolo's body. He was at that power to project that power, if only for a brief few moments.

[Kaboom]

The attacks are more like a capacitor for a camera's flash bulb. You've only got a pair of AA batteries feeding it, but it stores up a good amount of electricity from them, then releases it all at once.

So Piccolo shoulda been the one telling Raditz to "keep your eye on the birdie." >_>

[mrkaizoku]

I don't remember the exact line either but it's something along the lines of "They can focus their energy to increase the power of their attacks" or something like that.

Here you go:



First panel:

Goku:

Ka... Me... Ha... Me

Second panel:

First bubble:
No way!!! His battle power is rising!!

Second bubble:
battle power 924...!!!

Third panel:

That guy can concentrate his battle power to a tiny point He's able to do that...!!!