Saibamen/Raditz

Devilz · Post by **Devilz** » Tue May 27, 2008 10:34 pm

Does this scan say they are exactly 1,200 or over 1,200 (like in Viz)?

mrkaizoku · Post by **mrkaizoku** » Tue May 27, 2008 11:17 pm

The first bubble says (roughly):

Impossible...!! The Saibaiman's power is 1200...!!

The second bubble says (roughly):

Their power is equal to Raditz...!!

Nappa clearly says that their power is 1200.

Post by **Herms** » Tue May 27, 2008 11:20 pm

[right bubble] I'm-impossible...!! The Saibaiman's battle power is 1,200...!!

[left bubble] If it's just power, then they rival Raditz...!!

Seems that it is 1,200 and not over. The left bubble seems to imply that while they have as much power as Raditz, Raditz still has some advantage over them (perhaps inteligence?).

Rocketman · Post by **Rocketman** » Tue May 27, 2008 11:25 pm

Herms wrote:Seems that it is 1,200 and not over. The left bubble seems to imply that while they have as much power as Raditz, Raditz still has some advantage over them (perhaps inteligence?).

Don't forget Raditz has a tail.

Chibi Mystic Gohan · Post by **Chibi Mystic Gohan** » Tue May 27, 2008 11:32 pm

Daizenshuu EX, settling yet another schoolyard debate...! This topic could prove useful to me in the future. Here's the translation I made earlier for good measure:

"Y-you're kidding me...!! Each Saibaiman has a battle power of 1200...!! In terms of power, they each rival Raditz...!!"

Mine and Herms's translation of hitteki suru came out the same ;P Although, could Nappa possibly be referring to that specific Saibaiman's battle power? He's literally saying, "[Each/That/The/] Saibaiman's battle power is 1200...!!"

Ahhhh, the Japanese language.

saiyanprincess · Post by **saiyanprincess** » Wed May 28, 2008 5:59 am

Does anyone know where to begin with learning the Japanese language?

NeptuneKai · Post by **NeptuneKai** » Wed May 28, 2008 6:48 am

saiyanprincess wrote:Does anyone know where to begin with learning the Japanese language?

School, self learning books (dangerous you may end up speaking like a Japanese transvestite if you aren't careful.) Or just separate programs over the summer. Just look around I'm sure there are loads of places.

caejones · Post by **caejones** » Wed May 28, 2008 7:34 am

saiyanprincess wrote:Does anyone know where to begin with learning the Japanese language?

Hmm. I bought a "Listen and learn Japanese" book from Disney world back in ... I don't know, 2002?
Then someone pointed me to Takasugi Shinji (I can never remember if that's right.

)'s "teach yourself Japanese" site, and I made a bunch of index cards with the vocabulary included in his lessons.
Then just studied that for the next couple years until getting into a Japanese class at college (not even the college I'm full time in, though... I basically had to get someone to take me to the other university in town three days a week for three semesters...).
... After all of that, I still can hardly make sense of Japanese DB. Though .hack//sign is relatively understandable...
And since my vision sucks ass, my Japanese teacher didn't bother teaching me to read or write the language.

.

So, yeah, do with that what you will.

Akira · Post by **Akira** » Wed May 28, 2008 5:47 pm

I always took the Daizenshuu listing of 1500 for Raditz to be more accurate. First, he'd been working apart from Nappa and Vegeta for awhile, and highly likely that, as a Saiyan, his battle power had gone up from 1200 to 1500 since the last time he and Nappa had fought together.

Also, had Raditz truly been only 1200, then Piccolo would not have had such a difficult time nailing him with the Makosensappa which at full power, according to the Manga had him topped out at 1330 prior to unleashing that attack. He seemed highly concerned that Piccolo could power up to that extent, but never made a statement that it was even stronger than his own power. He just said something along the lines of "1330? I can't block that!"

I concede there is no definate answer on this issue, but I would argue that the evidence points towards the 1500 listing as being accurate, and Nappa's quote being based on the last time he had been in battle along side Raditz.

Nappa himself is listed at 4000, which is likely what he was against the Z team. However, he displays the capability to keep up with Goku (pre Kaioken usage) which, after powering up most likely put him around 8000 maxed. Goku did have to use Kaioken to put a quick end to the fight, and all evidence points to Nappa having a higher max than 4000.

I've come to realize the Battle powers are good reference points for the earlier part of the series, but you have to take into consideration the point at which a given power was scanned and the context of the situations to really get a solid grasp of what that tells you.

A lot of the battle powers can be deduced through math, but a great deal of them you just have to use logic and reasoning to know a range of where they were at.

Unfortunately, this often leads to lengthy debates and sometimes arguments, and will forever be a touchy subject with fans and their individual interpretations of the source material.

BlueSky · Post by **Kaboom** » Wed May 28, 2008 6:39 pm

What about Gohan? Gohan's power of 1300-ish let him actually hurt and stun Raditz. PL calculations aren't really my thing, but I don't think that could have happened if there was still a difference of 200 between them.

mrkaizoku · Post by **mrkaizoku** » Wed May 28, 2008 8:42 pm

Akira wrote:I always took the Daizenshuu listing of 1500 for Raditz to be more accurate. First, he'd been working apart from Nappa and Vegeta for awhile, and highly likely that, as a Saiyan, his battle power had gone up from 1200 to 1500 since the last time he and Nappa had fought together.

I only follow what it says in the manga, which pretty clearly puts Raditz at 1200 which makes perfect sense. If his power level was at 1500 he could have easily defended against Gohan's attack power of 1307.

Akira wrote:Also, had Raditz truly been only 1200, then Piccolo would not have had such a difficult time nailing him with the Makosensappa which at full power, according to the Manga had him topped out at 1330 prior to unleashing that attack.

You also have to take into account that Piccolo's battle power is only 408. The 1330 was a blast, not his actual attack power. Raditz's battle power completely dwarfs Goku and Piccolo's battle power put together! He was distracted and still dodged the first Makankousappou.

Akira wrote:I concede there is no definate answer on this issue, but I would argue that the evidence points towards the 1500 listing as being accurate, and Nappa's quote being based on the last time he had been in battle along side Raditz.

I completely disagree. The manga panel (first post of the thread) clearly states that the Saibaiman's power is 1200 equal to Raditz. Also remember that Nappa and Vegeta were 'watching' the fight through the scouters.

Akira wrote:Nappa himself is listed at 4000, which is likely what he was against the Z team. However, he displays the capability to keep up with Goku (pre Kaioken usage) which, after powering up most likely put him around 8000 maxed. Goku did have to use Kaioken to put a quick end to the fight, and all evidence points to Nappa having a higher max than 4000.

He really didn't keep up with Goku at all. Goku toyed with him and embarrassed him completely. So much so that Vegeta called for the end of their fight. The only reason he used the Kai Oh Ken was because Nappa intended to kill Kuririn and Gohan. If their fight had gone uninterrupted Goku would have easily beat Nappa without using Kai Oh Ken.

Darkprince410 · Post by **Darkprince410** » Thu May 29, 2008 3:48 am

mrkaizoku wrote:
Akira wrote:Nappa himself is listed at 4000, which is likely what he was against the Z team. However, he displays the capability to keep up with Goku (pre Kaioken usage) which, after powering up most likely put him around 8000 maxed. Goku did have to use Kaioken to put a quick end to the fight, and all evidence points to Nappa having a higher max than 4000.
He really didn't keep up with Goku at all. Goku toyed with him and embarrassed him completely. So much so that Vegeta called for the end of their fight. The only reason he used the Kai Oh Ken was because Nappa intended to kill Kuririn and Gohan. If their fight had gone uninterrupted Goku would have easily beat Nappa without using Kai Oh Ken.

Bejiita makes the comment to Nappa that if he calms himself down (since at the time Nappa was practically losing it the way that Gokuu had been having sport with him), there's no way that Gokuu could beat him. He knows that Gokuu's base battle power at the time is over 8,000, so there's no reason that he would have said such a thing unless he knows that Nappa is likewise capable of reaching battle powers of over 8,000.

Furthermore, right after Gokuu negated Nappa's "ultimate" attack at near point blank range, he makes a comment that at the rate that things were going, the fight would go on forever. If Nappa were indeed only about half as strong as Gokuu was (according to how the Daizenshuu places him), then Gokuu would easily be able to best him, but as we see, that isn't the case.

Bejiita also comments after this that it would take Nappa forever at the rate it was going.

mrkaizoku · Post by **mrkaizoku** » Thu May 29, 2008 5:58 am

You aren't taking into consideration the fact that Goku is concealing his true power, and no not just the Kai Oh Ken, but his base power. Also remember that Goku keeps up with Vegeta in their base forms. A feat that Nappa obviously couldn't do. By that fact alone Goku's base form is stronger than Nappa's.

Darknat · Post by **Darknat** » Thu May 29, 2008 7:31 am

In my opinion, the Daizenshu is right. It could be said it was an error, but even the old nes and snes games put Raditz power level at 1500
And I know that videogames are not really good source of information... but if 2 sources list it that way, and in theory the powerlevels from Daizenshu come from toriyamas notes... Then I think they are right

Post by **VegettoEX** » Thu May 29, 2008 7:32 am

Ugh, let's not resort to manga scanlations... c'mon, people... seriously...

Chibi Mystic Gohan · Post by **Chibi Mystic Gohan** » Thu May 29, 2008 1:30 pm

Those aren't technically scanlations, you know. They're just VIZ scans.

Xyex · Post by **Xyex** » Thu May 29, 2008 1:58 pm

mrkaizoku wrote:You aren't taking into consideration the fact that Goku is concealing his true power, and no not just the Kai Oh Ken, but his base power. Also remember that Goku keeps up with Vegeta in their base forms. A feat that Nappa obviously couldn't do. By that fact alone Goku's base form is stronger than Nappa's.

Goku was using his full power, minus Kaioken, against Nappa. And he wasn't keeping up with Vegeta without the Kaioken.

mrkaizoku · Post by **mrkaizoku** » Thu May 29, 2008 2:02 pm

Darknat wrote:In my opinion, the Daizenshu is right. It could be said it was an error, but even the old nes and snes games put Raditz power level at 1500
And I know that videogames are not really good source of information... but if 2 sources list it that way, and in theory the powerlevels from Daizenshu come from toriyamas notes... Then I think they are right

I think that I would rather trust what Nappa says, rather than a videogame or a daizenshuu. I think in the end Toriyama's word should be definitive. This just doesn't seem that subjective. Besides the Saibaimen's power level is only there to let you know just how much everyone has grown in ONLY ONE YEAR! It was a tremendous boost for all of them. The Saibaimen's power level is also there to set up just how disgustingly strong Nappa and Vegeta are.

djkalteraphine · Post by **djkalteraphine** » Sun Jun 01, 2008 1:58 am

"He has the same fighting power as. . . !!" "As who?" "As. . Raditz. . ."

I love that line. Nappa is so sensitive.

Tyro · Post by **Tyro** » Wed Jun 04, 2008 10:00 am

Since this problem is solved, if it isn't too much trouble, could we possibly have a literal translation of this:

It's the same scan posted by MajinVejitaXV a while back, the only change I made was to cut his room out of it.

The main thing I want to know, really, is if Jheese mentions that Vegeta's ki is going over 30,000 or if it only reached 30,000.