Is Tenshinhan considered human? Tenshinhan vs Kuririn

[Olivier Hague]

So a source book has more credibility than the actual source?

Does the actual source say something about Tenshinhan not having alien ancestors?
No? 'Sounds like a pointless question, then...

But like I pointed out earlier, when the Daizenshû contradict the anime filler by saying that the Dragon Balls were created by a Nameccian, you can't argue that they're wrong.

[Mr.Piccolo]

Can someone please find an obvious factual error within the daizenshuu so it isn't seem as the DragonBall bible for members here... OlivierHague

[Olivier Hague]

Can someone please find an obvious factual error within the daizenshuu so it isn't seem as the DragonBall bible for members here... OlivierHague

I don't remember claiming that the Daizenshû were infallible.

And again, you don't have to be infallible to be right about something.
Even if you point out a mistake in the Daizenshû, that won't "prove" a single thing one way or the other concerning Tenshinhan's ancestry.

[Mr.Piccolo]

Can someone please find an obvious factual error within the daizenshuu so it isn't seem as the DragonBall bible for members here... OlivierHague

I don't remember claiming that the Daizenshû were infallible.

And again, you don't have to be infalllible to be right about something.
Even if you point out a mistake in the Daizenshû, that won't "prove" a single thing one way or the other concerning Tenshinhan's ancestry.

I know but anytime someone makes a point, you always throw daizenshuu into the equation;its almost like you make it like the Survivor show and the daizenshuu is your immunity from listening to other valid opinions in the threads, well from what I've seen as of late-especially in this thread.

[Olivier Hague]

I know but anytime someone makes a point, you always throw daizenshuu into the equation

Well, that's where the whole debate stems from, so it's kinda logical we'd talk about it, don't you think?

its almost like you make it like the Survivor show and the daizenshuu is your immunity from listening to other valid opinions in the threads

I listened, but I didn't hear anybody telling me why they were 100% sure the Daizenshû had made a mistake.

[kinoko]

Suddenly... like, 2 more pages were created without my knowing. ><

And don't forget the fangirls! ^__^

Forgive me if I only did a quick scan of the going-in-circles argument that occurred on pages 11 and 12. I really don't want this discussion to be locked, people. Please. Be civil.

(Synthe, that Wiki article is very interesting. Thanks for the link!)

About the Shiyoken... If the arms grow from Tenshinhan's body - would they really have any clothes/bling on them? They're an extra pair of arms.

And it is interesting that the three ..extra Tenshinhans kind of slide out from the original Tenshinhan, while in Piccolo's case where he splits himself into two bodies, the other one bursts from his back. ...But then again.. Piccolo's from Namek (at least that's been established, eh? ^^) So maybe, the other way is just how a human/earthling would accomplish it... Heh hehn..

Bah, I know I'm being foolish...

[Drunken Master]

You are foolish!!




JK. Well, if we look at it at a canon angle, Tenshinhan is the only one to have split into different real bodies.

PS
You're a girl?!

[kinoko]

PS
You're a girl?!

Last time I checked. XD;;;;

Part of the reason I wrote that in my reply. Yeah. I'm a girl who LOVES Tenshinhan, and I'm damn proud of it! <3

W00t! 50 posts~! XD T_T pathetic.. +dances+ I'm a "Not-So-Newbie!"

Oh, and just to clarify my foolishness (no harm done, Drunken Master) .. I meant that when you compare the two, it would seem - maybe superficially - that Tenshinhan's method is more of an illusion (Piccolo's UGH!-explosion-and-another-body method seems painful.. and somehow more organic.) I'm not saying Tenshinhan's is an illusion - I know his is the only technique canonically (is that a word?) known to produce tangible "clones." I guess I'm just playing devil's advocate... ?

[Godo]

I know but anytime someone makes a point, you always throw daizenshuu into the equation

Well, that's where the whole debate stems from, so it's kinda logical we'd talk about it, don't you think?

its almost like you make it like the Survivor show and the daizenshuu is your immunity from listening to other valid opinions in the threads

I listened, but I didn't hear anybody telling me why they were 100% sure the Daizenshû had made a mistake.

Just as you I'm not 100% sure of my statement, but just like you I have my opinion and I believe that it is most logical.
Just like you I assume my opinion. Because you can't know for sure that what you say is actually the right information? Because I assume thet you haven't had lunch with Mr. Toriyama, just like I haven't. So we are assuming.

I have read almost all posts of desirecampbell and I agree on what he writes; that the Tenshinhan part probably is filler.

I believe that the Daizenshuu is made for making profit, for milking out the series. So, why should they sell like say six books, when they can sell seven? That makes even more money! So lets cram in filler!
And come on guys, filler couldn't just be made for the show to keep in track with the books. I think that it was made for making more money. Overall you make more money on a 20 episodes show than on a 10 episodes show because of that the channels pay for the rights to show the programme!

Moneymoneymoney!

I don't think that they thought "Well, lets make the Daizenshuu to make the fans satisfied!".

Money. And people pay for that shit, so they make it!

That's why I believe that the Tenshinhan part is filler. But as told, I cannot be 100% sure, which noone else on this forum can be. And that's why we have a discussion. =)

[desirecampbell]

Just because you don't have confirmation it's correct, that doesn't prove it's wrong, you know. That's one of the oldest fallacies in the book.

And just because there's nothing that specifically disproves it, it doesn't mean it's true.

You don't have to be infallible to be right about something, so there's no point in trying to prove that the Daizenshû are infallible.
You're trying to say that Tenshinhan can't be an alien unless the Daizenshû are infallible, and that's a fallacy. Careful with those.

The only way to prove that Ten is an alien is through this one passage of one daizenshuu. If you say Ten is an alien because this book said so, then this book has to be infallible, or you have no argument. If the daizenshuu could be wrong (that is, it is not infallible) then this information cannot be taken as truth by itself, it needs something else to back it up.

Is that clear enough for you?

And yet they do tell us that the Dragon Balls were created by a Nameccian. So I guess they can be better than anime filler after all, huh?

What? You mean the book that was written after the whole series was over had more accurate information about a subject clearly explained (repeatedly) in the series than the one episode written before Toriyama explained it at all? Really? It's almost like they had seen the damned show!

Seriously, that's the best example you could come up with?

How's this for an example of how filler's more credible than the daizenshuu: The Bardock special. All filler, later incorporated (all-be-it only 2 panels) into the manga.

But wait, there's more. You used an example of filler where someone other than Toriyama came up with an origin for something that Toriyama himself hadn't divulged yet. Later, Toriyama wrote an origin in the manga that was wildly different from what the other writers had thought up.

You would conclude, then, that people other than Toriyama can, and have, come up with origin stories that turn out to be wrong?

One again, you would conclude that people other than Toriyama (like those writing the daizenshuu) can, and have (like in daizenshuu 7), come up with origin stories (like Ten being an alien) that turn out to be wrong?

If you go by the strictest definition of "canon" possible, Toriyama didn't type the dialogues of the manga himself. Does that mean they're not canon? By the same token, what if he provided the information about Tenshinhan's ancestry but didn't type it himself for the Daizenshû? Does it really matter who typed the damn thing?

Oh fuck off. You know damned well I didn't mean he had to literally write it out. You disgrace yourself and everyone else here by bringing the discussion down to semantics - especially when you now exactly what I meant by "write".

I'm not writing these words onto your screen, your computer is. Does that mean your computer thinks you're being a jackass? No, I think you're being a jackass.

I hate having this thread being brought down by personal attacks, and attempts at diverging from the topic. Stop doing it.

Dude. Please don't play the "I can think just like Toriyama!" card. It's just not worth it.
Especially for something like this. Yeah, I'm sure he'd never lower himself to forgotten alien ancestries.

I never said I could think like Toriyama. I said, and it's quoted right there, that I can explain Toriyama's writing style. It's not a great feat - anyone can do it to any writer. Perhaps you've heard of William Shakespeare? He's quite the popular writer for people to study.

But supervised by him.

What does that mean? Did he inspect and read over every page? Did he make sure nothing contradicted withe the series proper?

And that would be a databook, i.e. a book that's supposed to provide reliable information. That's... well... the whole point of the thing, really.

The key-word there is "supposed". Sagas was "supposed" to be a good videogame. All filler was "supposed" to be half-decent and not contradict the story.

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

That's exactly what I'm trying to explain to you. There's little evidence to support the idea that Ten is an alien.

Pro-ET
It's mentioned in daizenshuu 7, and reprinted in a videogame.

Anti-ET
Ten being an alien, and it not being mentioned, is a departure from Toriyama's writing style. Toriyama makes it very clear when a character is an alien.

There's no collaborative evidence in the manga, or the anime that suggests that Ten is an alien.

The daizenshuu aren't infallible, the information could simply be wrong.

So a source book has more credibility than the actual source?

A very good point. I hope everyone reads it.



[edit] Ack, there's more pages!

I know but anytime someone makes a point, you always throw daizenshuu into the equation

Well, that's where the whole debate stems from, so it's kinda logical we'd talk about it, don't you think?

Yes, start there. But then move on when it's clear that more is needed.

its almost like you make it like the Survivor show and the daizenshuu is your immunity from listening to other valid opinions in the threads

I listened, but I didn't hear anybody telling me why they were 100% sure the Daizenshû had made a mistake.

How about

-Ten being an alien, and it not being mentioned, is a departure from Toriyama's writing style. Toriyama makes it very clear when a character is an alien.
There's no collaborative evidence in the manga, or the anime that suggests that -Ten is an alien.
-The daizenshuu aren't infallible, the information could simply be wrong.

[Mr.Piccolo]

Rather then reading the first page try reading the rest....
I just like to add that the three eye IS symbolism, Tenshinhan is http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erlang_Shen
so the eye is NOT of "Alien" origin.

It's almost impossible for him to do that because there is so much bullshit bickering going on. Everyone do me a favor, for now on if you want to respond to something someone says don't respond a sentence at a time, it is annoying and its hard to stay in the direction it should be.

Now my question actually gears towards when Krillin and Piccolo made "clones" and it was dismissed as filler. Do you think filler would go that far out its way just to make Tenshinhan's "alien" technique an ability people of any origin can do? Krillin is clearly not an alien but he can do it. Mabye the martial arts techniques Ten revealed in Dragonball were so bizarre, people(including the writers of daizenshuu) disclosed it as not from this world.

[Godo]

Goku's staff is out of this world, thus it is alien by conclusion of some opinions here. It's "out of this world", thus it is alien. No. Way.
It's M A G I C. As well as much other things in early Dragonball.

Every strong character could do somehing impossible, and that was just a way to make them interesting, and some of those things were borrowed from Journey to the West.

Kame Sennin: Kamehameha, Bulk up, martial arts expert, OLD
Yamucha: Strong, Wolf Fang Fist, bandit
Krillin: No nose, dots on head, aualin monk, short
Goku: Tail, naive, strong
Tienshinhan: Third eye, could grow out limbs, could use an very stong attack.
Chao-Zu: short, mime-like, only one straw on head, phsychic abilities

I can go on with this in like, forever.

[Olivier Hague]

I have read almost all posts of desirecampbell and I agree on what he writes; that the Tenshinhan part probably is filler.

We're talking an extra dozen of characters, here, really. The page would look the same without them.

I believe that the Daizenshuu is made for making profit, for milking out the series. So, why should they sell like say six books, when they can sell seven? That makes even more money! So lets cram in filler!

See above: the difference is barely visible, on the page. So it would take a lot of stuff like that to make an extra volume, really. And yet, I can't think of something similar for another character.

And come on guys, filler couldn't just be made for the show to keep in track with the books.

That was the main reason, really.

I think that it was made for making more money.

In the sense that a filler episode was better than no episode at all, yeah, sure.

And just because there's nothing that specifically disproves it, it doesn't mean it's true.

No, it doesn't. But it's a possibility.

The only way to prove that Ten is an alien is through this one passage of one daizenshuu. If you say Ten is an alien because this book said so, then this book has to be infallible

Of course not, that's a fallacy.
Quick demonstration:
Human beings are fallible. Does that mean you never trusted anybody about anything and never will?

Now, databooks are supposed to provide reliable information. So if an official databook tells me that Tenshinhan has alien ancestry, I'll consider it "true unless proven false".
Could it be proven false? Yes.
Was it? No.

And yet they do tell us that the Dragon Balls were created by a Nameccian. So I guess they can be better than anime filler after all, huh?

What? You mean the book that was written after the whole series was over had more accurate information about a subject clearly explained (repeatedly) in the series than the one episode written before Toriyama explained it at all? Really? It's almost like they had seen the damned show!

And you just explained why the Daizenshû isn't on the same level as anime filler. Thank you!

Seriously, that's the best example you could come up with?

It made you explain why your own "Daizenshû on the same level as anime filler" argument was nothing more than a weak sleight of hand, so... yeah, I'm pretty satisfied.

How's this for an example of how filler's more credible than the daizenshuu: The Bardock special. All filler, later incorporated (all-be-it only 2 panels) into the manga.

How does that make it more credible? Do the Daizenshû contradict it in any way? Not as far as I know.

But wait, there's more.

I'm sure you won't disappoint me.

You used an example of filler where someone other than Toriyama came up with an origin for something that Toriyama himself hadn't divulged yet. Later, Toriyama wrote an origin in the manga that was wildly different from what the other writers had thought up.
You would conclude, then, that people other than Toriyama can, and have, come up with origin stories that turn out to be wrong?

Yeah, that's great. Or it would be if you knew for a fact that Tenshinhan's alien ancestry was made up by someone else than Toriyama. But since you don't, that's a moot point. Sorry!

One again, you would conclude that people other than Toriyama (like those writing the daizenshuu)

Or like 6 billions of people.

can, and have (like in daizenshuu 7), come up with origin stories (like Ten being an alien) that turn out to be wrong?

Again, you don't know for sure that Toriyama didn't come up with that one anyway, so... MOOT.

You know damned well I didn't mean he had to literally write it out.

It sure looks like you do. Otherwise, why keep repeating "Toriyama didn't write the book! waah! waah!"? It's entirely possible he provided the information, so how does that matter?

I hate having this thread being brought down by personal attacks

So you keep doing it to... er... get accustomed to it so that the pain goes away? Something like that?

I never said I could think like Toriyama. I said, and it's quoted right there, that I can explain Toriyama's writing style.

And tell if Toriyama would come up with something or not. Yeah. OK.

It's not a great feat - anyone can do it to any writer. Perhaps you've heard of William Shakespeare?

Dude, you won just by saying that name!
Wait, no, you didn't. But you can keep trying, who knows?

Did he inspect and read over every page? Did he make sure nothing contradicted withe the series proper?

Maybe?

And that would be a databook, i.e. a book that's supposed to provide reliable information. That's... well... the whole point of the thing, really.

The key-word there is "supposed".

Well, prove it's wrong, then.

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

That's exactly what I'm trying to explain to you.

Man. I'm crying, now. I hope you're proud of yourself.

There's little evidence to support the idea that Ten is an alien.

... but then you make me feel better by showing how you didn't really understand that idea you just claimed your own.
So what if there's little evidence to support that he is? Does that turn into some magic evidence that he isn't? No. So that's M and O and O and T.

Ten being an alien, and it not being mentioned, is a departure from Toriyama's writing style.

Says you, but I guess we'll just have to trust you on that one, just like with your canon levels.

Toriyama makes it very clear when a character is an alien.

Yeah, that's just how it is. You could almost say that defines who he is.

The daizenshuu aren't infallible, the information could simply be wrong.

"Could"! Yes, indeed, it could.

Well, we've obviously made huge progresses. Remember those times when you were just saying it was? Ah, it feels like that was another life...

I know but anytime someone makes a point, you always throw daizenshuu into the equation

Well, that's where the whole debate stems from, so it's kinda logical we'd talk about it, don't you think?

Yes, start there. But then move on when it's clear that more is needed.

You mean "when I say that more is needed", huh?

I didn't hear anybody telling me why they were 100% sure the Daizenshû had made a mistake.

How about

-Ten being an alien, and it not being mentioned, is a departure from Toriyama's writing style.

How about no?
I could just claim that I know more than you do about his writing style, and that you're mistaken. And that's why you don't play that card.

There's no collaborative evidence in the manga, or the anime that suggests that -Ten is an alien.
-The daizenshuu aren't infallible, the information could simply be wrong.

Maybe you read me wrong: "I didn't hear anybody telling me why they were 100% sure the Daizenshû had made a mistake."

[Godo]

Olivier Hauge, I think you know exactly how to reply to me.

[Mr.Piccolo]

Its one thing to state your opinion, but it seems like one of you, which I will disclose as O.Hague or Oliver H. depending on your liking, believe that this is an argument or competition to see who is right or wrong. There is no way we can get a right are wrong answer. These are just speculations. You get no prize, no ribbon, no pat on the back. I doubt you would even get a cookie from Godo. If you stated your opinion and someone asks you to back it up, there probably isn't a way to do so- that is the whole premise of this thread: observations and speculations. I would like to see someone making a point based on their own thoughts instead of staying the same things again and again and again: Uh, well I never said daizenshuu is 100% correct. Yes, we know you said that five-thousand fucking times.

[Olivier Hague]

Olivier Hauge, I think you know exactly how to reply to me.

So do I! So why bother sending me nonsensical PMs?

It's simple, really:
1) If you think I'm using quotes to twist your words, show me how and where exactly. I.e. examples from my messages.
2) If you don't... Well, what the hell is your problem, dude?

Its one thing to state your opinion, but it seems like one of you, which I will disclose as O.Hague or Oliver H. depending on your liking, believe that this is an argument or competition to see who is right or wrong.

There's no argument, really.
Desirecampbell said that it was a mistake when he didn't really know. He's now trying to cover his tracks by turning the tables on me, and I won't let him.
That pretty much sums it up.

[Godo]

So do I!

What?!

So why bother

Bother what exactly?

sending me nonsensical PMs?

Wha? Nonsensical PM's...and your point is?

It's simple, really:

Dude...what is simple?

1) If you think

If you think what?

I'm using quotes to twist your words,

So that's it then. There we have it folks. A confession.

show me how and where exactly

What? How to have sex and where to put it?

I.e. examples from my messages.

*Confused*

2) If you don't...

If I don't what?

Well

Well what?

what the hell is

What the hell is what?

your problem, dude?

What problem, dude?

What you write is hard to read and make no sense, Olivier Hauge.

...

Quote-split answer to THAT.

Chew it, it may not go pass your throat. You may suffocate.

[Kaboom]

Genius, Godo. The most worthwhile use of split-up quoting that I've ever seen in all my days.

[Godo]

Genius, Godo. The most worthwhile use of split-up quoting that I've ever seen in all my days.

Acutally, I can say I'm pretty proud. Now I see how Olivier Hauge feels

[Drunken Master]

So a source book has more credibility than the actual source?

What? It's only providing information from the source, it doesn't contradict the manga at all, meaning you can't pit them against each other like that.

Ten being an alien, and it not being mentioned, is a departure from Toriyama's writing style. Toriyama makes it very clear when a character is an alien.

Nothing says Tenshinhan is an alien, why do people keep bringing that up? It says his ancestors were 'alien', thus meaning that he's most likely a hybrid. He's probably more human than 'alien' seeing as how ancestors usually means way back in the day.

There's no collaborative evidence in the manga, or the anime that suggests that Ten is an alien.

But there is a quote saying his ancestors were infact alien in the Daizenshuu, which was approved by AT and gives information about the true source, the manga. Thus, I believe it so.

The daizenshuu aren't infallible, the information could simply be wrong.

The chances of it being right are more than it being wrong. It was probably reviewed many times before production and then printed, thus nobody found it as a mistake, and it's in a book that gives us detailed information about Dragon Ball. I'm sure Akira Toriyama also reviewed it as well. The statement never comes close to being contradicted and the manga actually supports it in my view. That's enough for me. Tenshinhan isn't fully human.