Is Tenshinhan considered human? Tenshinhan vs Kuririn

Tyro · Post by **Tyro** » Sat Aug 04, 2007 5:34 pm

I really don't believe Tenshinhan spent all of his time training over the years we don't see him. That just seems like peculation from an anime point of view, because he honestly don't see anything from him in the Boo Arc that would mean he trained himself.

Xyex · Post by **Xyex** » Sat Aug 04, 2007 6:38 pm

Tyro wrote:I really don't believe Tenshinhan spent all of his time training over the years we don't see him. That just seems like peculation from an anime point of view, because he honestly don't see anything from him in the Boo Arc that would mean he trained himself.

We don't need information saying he did train. The burden falls to proving that he didn't train because we have past information to indicate that he would.

Tyro · Post by **Tyro** » Sat Aug 04, 2007 6:49 pm

Ok, list it then, please. As memory recalls, all of his hopes for beating Goku came crashing down on Kaio-sama's planet. Same for the hopes of beating Vegeta.

I'm the one who usually doesn't say someone trains, just because they are the type of person to do it. There needs to be proof.

Godo · Post by **Godo** » Sat Aug 04, 2007 8:12 pm

Olivier Hague wrote:Oh, for god's sake...

Yes, it does say the "three-eyed tribe" are aliens.
And yes, that's "alien" in the "extra-terrestrial" sense of the term. The actual Japanese term was either "iseijin" (lit. "person from another planet") or "uchûjin" (lit. "person from space"), I don't remember exactly.

You know, that was obviously a joke. Of course they mean extra-terrestial or something like that otherwise they wouldn´t translated it to "alien".
But yeah, thanks for the analysis of the translation.

Drunken Master · Post by **Drunken Master** » Sun Aug 05, 2007 12:18 am

Tyro wrote:Ok, list it then, please. As memory recalls, all of his hopes for beating Goku came crashing down on Kaio-sama's planet.
I'm the one who usually doesn't say someone trains, just because they are the type of person to do it. There needs to be proof.

What do you mean "came crashing down"...? Tenshinhan trained his best with Kaio-sama, and he literally says he's training to beat Goku when he's up there. His life is martial arts, he's not going to stop practicing it. We don't see Piccolo training during all those years, but do you think he stopped? It's an assumption to say he stop, because of his consistency of doing it in the past. Same applies for Tenshinhan.

Xyex · Post by **Xyex** » Sun Aug 05, 2007 12:21 am

Godo wrote:You know, that was obviously a joke. Of course they mean extra-terrestial or something like that otherwise they wouldn´t translated it to "alien".
But yeah, thanks for the analysis of the translation.

Actually, to the best of my memory, that is the first time I've ever heard someone say that it does, specifically say alien. Until now, all I've heard mention of was the claim 'descended of the three-eyed tribe' with absolutely no mention, at all, anywhere, ever, of this tribe being alien. Could be a slip of my memory (which, I readily admit, has more holes than swiss cheese Mmmm, swiss cheese) or could be that I've just never seen it mentioned that it says, clearly and obviously "SPACE ALIEN".

Tyro wrote:Ok, list it then, please. As memory recalls, all of his hopes for beating Goku came crashing down on Kaio-sama's planet. Same for the hopes of beating Vegeta.

I'm the one who usually doesn't say someone trains, just because they are the type of person to do it. There needs to be proof.

So... Tien's entire reason for training is to be better than Goku, thus he trained before he'd ever met Goku, in order to be better than Goku, who he didn't know at all? Tien has reasons of his own, that have nothing to do with Goku or Vegeta, for training. It is pure speculation to assume that he would stop training. As I said, it must be proven that he did not, not that he did, as you must prove the inverse of the normal, not the normal.

Drunken Master · Post by **Drunken Master** » Sun Aug 05, 2007 12:34 am

Can someone read French? If so, just translate.

Post by **desirecampbell** » Sun Aug 05, 2007 12:38 am

Just a quick scan, but I clearly see "extra terrestres" (which I assume everyone can figure out themselves).

Olivier Hague · Post by **Olivier Hague** » Sun Aug 05, 2007 12:52 am

Godo wrote:You know, that was obviously a joke.

I've seen far worse in this very topic, so...

Xyex wrote:Until now, all I've heard mention of was the claim 'descended of the three-eyed tribe' with absolutely no mention, at all, anywhere, ever, of this tribe being alien. Could be a slip of my memory

I'm afraid it is.
Here (earliest occurence I could find on this board), for example.

Xyex · Post by **Xyex** » Sun Aug 05, 2007 2:18 am

Olivier Hague wrote:I'm afraid it is.
Here (earliest occurence I could find on this board), for example.

2005? What? You expect me to remember that far back? Seriously, I can barely remember what I had for supper. >> Though I think Daiz 4 trumps Daiz 7 here. >>

Post by **desirecampbell** » Sun Aug 05, 2007 2:37 am

Xyex wrote:2005? What? You expect me to remember that far back? Seriously, I can barely remember what I had for supper. >> Though I think Daiz 4 trumps Daiz 7 here. >>

?
What's in daizenshuu 4?

Damnit! Don't tease me with half-information! *trembles*

Xyex · Post by **Xyex** » Sun Aug 05, 2007 3:02 am

desirecampbell wrote:
Xyex wrote:2005? What? You expect me to remember that far back? Seriously, I can barely remember what I had for supper. >> Though I think Daiz 4 trumps Daiz 7 here. >>
?
What's in daizenshuu 4?

Damnit! Don't tease me with half-information! *trembles*

From the thread Olivier linked:

Hujio wrote:Daizenshuu 4 lists Tenshinhan as a Martial Artist on the Earthlings page in the racial groups section. So which Daizenshuu do we believe?

I choose to take Daizneshuu 4 over Daizenshuu 7 for this simply on the grounds that it makes more sense. I'm sure, if Toriyama originally intended to make Tien an alien it would have been mentioned somewhere within the manga itself, not in an extra data book that not all the fans would even bother getting.

Godo · Post by **Godo** » Sun Aug 05, 2007 7:19 am

Miscellaneous races

...In the universe of Dragonball, the three most important races are the Saiyans, the Earthlings and the Nameks. But there have existed many other different races during history. The people in the single faculties like the Yadrats or the Metamols, the Three Eyed ancestors of Tenshinhan, the extra-terrestials in the Penguin village like Nicochan or Okaka Umeboshi...

There you have a rough translation of the French text.

Olivier Hague · Post by **Olivier Hague** » Sun Aug 05, 2007 9:54 am

Oh, come on!

Xyex wrote:2005? What? You expect me to remember that far back?

Like I just said, that's simply the earliest occurence I could find on this board.
We've been talking about him being said to have alien ancestors for a while in this very topic.

I'm sure, if Toriyama originally intended to make Tenshinhan an alien it would have been mentioned somewhere within the manga itself, not in an extra data book that not all the fans would even bother getting.

Why mention it in the story itself if it's not going to be relevant? Same thing for Akkuman's sister, really. Or Thouser being Ginew's rival, and from the same species as Jees.
It's called an ura settei, and it's not uncommon at all.

But we've been there already.
I've invested a lot of time in this topic, so please don't bomb it back to the stone age, Xyex. Thanks in advance.

Rocketman · Post by **Rocketman** » Sun Aug 05, 2007 11:35 am

Who's Thouser?

Duo · Post by **Duo** » Sun Aug 05, 2007 11:51 am

Wasn't it also the Daizenshuu that explains why the Artificial Humans of Trunks' Time-line were more malicious and evil?

- When Goku came back and fought Freeza and Cold, he let some of the henchmen escape. One of them went on to kill the parents of the Future #17 and #18.

If the Daizenshuu isn't true, do I disregard that as well, even though it fills a very interesting story gap?

Tyro · Post by **Tyro** » Sun Aug 05, 2007 1:04 pm

What do you mean "came crashing down"...? Tenshinhan trained his best with Kaio-sama, and he literally says he's training to beat Goku when he's up there. His life is martial arts, he's not going to stop practicing it. We don't see Piccolo training during all those years, but do you think he stopped? It's an assumption to say he stop, because of his consistency of doing it in the past. Same applies for Tenshinhan.

It's true Ten was still in high hopes of being able to catch up, and possibly surpass Goku with harder training from Kaio-sama, and with a few "tweaks" of his own, but as stated by Tenshinhan later, "Then...this "Super Saiya-jin" that Goku's become... ...is the most powerful being in the universe... ...it's as if he's in a completely different world now..." He recognized how far Goku surpassed him now. It was bad enough that Goku's power skyrocketed after his training in 100x gravity on the way to Namek, but also adding in his recovery after Vegeta beat "him" up, and his newfound SSj powers, there's no chance in hell Tenshinhan could get close to his power.

Piccolo isn't really the best example there. We know he trained for the 1 year and 260 days on Earth before Trunks beats Freeza, because it's stated. He also trained the three years before the artificial humans appear. That's also stated. But there's practically nothing stated or shown that says he trained just as hard during the seven years after the Cell Game.

Xyex wrote:So... Tenshinhan's entire reason for training is to be better than Goku, thus he trained before he'd ever met Goku, in order to be better than Goku, who he didn't know at all? Tenshinhan has reasons of his own, that have nothing to do with Goku or Vegeta, for training. It is pure speculation to assume that he would stop training. As I said, it must be proven that he did not, not that he did, as you must prove the inverse of the normal, not the normal.

Do you not want to put words into my mouth anymore? Because it would be a lot easier for the both of us if you didn't. I never said that Tenshinhan's main goal for training was originally to beat Goku. But it's clear that after he meets Goku, that's what he constantly tries to do. He trained greatly for three years in hopes of being able to beat Goku at the next Tenkaichi Budokai.

Kuririn was also a martial artist with reasons of his own when he arrived on Muten Roshi's island and requested training, but he stopped eventually.

caejones · Post by **caejones** » Sun Aug 05, 2007 1:23 pm

Duo wrote:Wasn't it also the Daizenshuu that explains why the Artificial Humans of Trunks' Time-line were more malicious and evil?

- When Goku came back and fought Freeza and Cold, he let some of the henchmen escape. One of them went on to kill the parents of the Future #17 and #18.

If the Daizenshuu isn't true, do I disregard that as well, even though it fills a very interesting story gap?

Wasn't that from an interview, and we had difficulty finding a source, but it was supposedly from Toriyama?

Drunken Master · Post by **Drunken Master** » Sun Aug 05, 2007 1:26 pm

Rocketman wrote:Who's Thouser?

Salza, first hand man of Cooler. Right Olivier? I remember reading it in my DBZBT2 guide.

Olivier Hague · Post by **Olivier Hague** » Sun Aug 05, 2007 1:26 pm

Duo wrote:Wasn't it also the Daizenshuu that explains why the Artificial Humans of Trunks' Time-line were more malicious and evil?

I don't think so. I don't remember Toriyama talking about that in the volumes I've read, anyway.
I'm not sure about the source for that one interview.

Drunken Master wrote:
Rocketman wrote:Who's Thouser?
Salza, first hand man of Cooler. Right Olivier?

Yup.

I remember reading it in my DBZBT2 guide.

Yeah, that information didn't originate in that video game, despite what I've seen some people claim (five days ago, for example). The game simply "reminded" that to the player (same thing for Tenshinhan's ancestry... funny link).