"Gotenks surpassing Vegeta and the others".

[RandomGuy96]

So...we pretty much agree, then. I think it comes down to the user's strength. Like, I'm quite sure Post-Rosat Super Saiyan Trunks would slice #18 in two if his sword wasn't broken at that point.

Oh, alright then. Guess I must have misinterpreted you.

This is why I don't see anything wrong with Beers knocking out someone thousands of times weaker than him with chopsticks.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

I still don't see what bleeding has to do with anything.

It only happens when Boo gets hit by extremely stronger than him opponents, so it must mean that he takes real damage.

And I don't quite remember Mr. Boo ever bleeding. Which page was that in? Same goes to Evil Boo. Unlike against Vegetto, where he has a nose and definitely bleeds, there might be just a bruise under his lip (doesn't seem any different from other bruises all over his face and body).

Spoiler:

Both examples are with Boo's opponents damaging Boo properly (his whole body). A single punch shouldn't do shit, just like a ki blast doesn't do shit even if it goes through Boo.

Can you prove that someone who is hundreds or thousands times stronger than Boo, like Beerus, can't KO Boo with a punch? Because your examples apply to characters that are less than x10 stronger than Boo.

Also it may be just a gameplay element, but if it was all about using ki to empower weapons, why would the weapons in DBO need to be upgraded/replaced with better ones?

Because just empowering the sword with ki doesn't make it invisible. A better sword with ki is sharper than a worse sword with ki.

Thanks for bringing this up. This totally concludes the discussion!

I'm not saying that just because they can empower their swords with ki in the video-games they should be able to do it in the manga too. I just pointed out examples in the franchise.

Despite Freeza surviving Nameks explosion with not only just half a head but barely any chi left, Trunks was still that much stronger than him where he couls slice through him like butter with an plain old sword.

It's not a "plain old sword".

Trunks' Sword
Characteristics
A large, Western-style sword. Its true power is utilized by holding it with both hands. Though it looks like an ordinary sword, it's refined enough to instantly cut the revived Freeza's mechanical body to pieces. It seems that perhaps it's been refined through the future's special technology. All the same, it couldn't cut Super Saiyan Goku or Artificial Human No. 18. It's usually stored in a specially made scabbard worn on Trunks' back.

And in the anime, it was a powerful sword that belonged to Tapion.

[hleV]

I still don't see what bleeding has to do with anything.

It only happens when Boo gets hit by extremely stronger than him opponents, so it must mean that he takes real damage.

And I don't quite remember Mr. Boo ever bleeding. Which page was that in? Same goes to Evil Boo. Unlike against Vegetto, where he has a nose and definitely bleeds, there might be just a bruise under his lip (doesn't seem any different from other bruises all over his face and body).

Spoiler:

Again, it could be just bruises, because that's how bruises look. Here's blood:



And I STILL don't understand what point you're trying to make. If I hit you in the stomack, you'd probably not bleed. If I hit you in the nose/lip, you'd probably bleed. Does that mean you took more damage when I hit you in the nose/lip?

Both examples are with Boo's opponents damaging Boo properly (his whole body). A single punch shouldn't do shit, just like a ki blast doesn't do shit even if it goes through Boo.

Can you prove that someone who is hundreds or thousands times stronger than Boo, like Beerus, can't KO Boo with a punch? Because your examples apply to characters that are less than x10 stronger than Boo.

Yes. Boo was shot through multiple times, which means greater damage than just being punched.

Thanks for bringing this up. This totally concludes the discussion!

I'm not saying that just because they can empower their swords with ki in the video-games they should be able to do it in the manga too. I just pointed out examples in the franchise.

So essentially your point had no purpose?

Despite Freeza surviving Nameks explosion with not only just half a head but barely any chi left, Trunks was still that much stronger than him where he couls slice through him like butter with an plain old sword.

It's not a "plain old sword".

Trunks' Sword
Characteristics
A large, Western-style sword. Its true power is utilized by holding it with both hands. Though it looks like an ordinary sword, it's refined enough to instantly cut the revived Freeza's mechanical body to pieces. It seems that perhaps it's been refined through the future's special technology. All the same, it couldn't cut Super Saiyan Goku or Artificial Human No. 18. It's usually stored in a specially made scabbard worn on Trunks' back.

And in the anime, it was a powerful sword that belonged to Tapion.

See? The description says that it's the sword that is able to cut through Freeza, and couldn't cut through SS Goku and #18. Surely one needs enough strength to use the sword to cut through such powerful beings as Freeza, but the sword is not empowered by the user and nothing suggests it is. Again an example with a rock. Trunks' sword can potentially cut it, but a human would hardly have enough strength to do that.

Eh... I go with the strength depending on the user's ki because otherwise these swords just look arbitrarily overpowered. For example, if Yajirobe's sword could cut through Oozaru Vegeta, why did no one even consider using it against Nappa or Raditz?

Yajirobe was the only sword user among the Z fighters, and a coward who attacks an off-guard opponent from behind. That's why. There's also a question why Yajirobe didn't cut Vegeta in half. Was he not strong enough to push his sword through Vegeta, only managing to make a non-mortal wound? And Kuririn did intend to use the sword against beaten Vegeta rather than whatever remaining energy he had, suggesting that it would've been more efficient.

Also, it implies that Trunks' sword would never be able to do anything to the androids no matter how strong he got. I don't really like that implication, it makes the whole sword gimmick even more pointless and useless/ If it was just down to the sword's strength, not his, why is he even surprised that a sword that does nothing to his own bare skin when wielded by King Cold also does nothing to the androids when wielded by him?

Trunks catched the sword with his hand, it's different from it failing to cut. I'm certain that Trunks' sword would break against #18 even if SS3 Vegetto used it.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Again, it could be just bruises, because that's how bruises look

So, Evil Boo can spit bruises? And bruises look like lines of blood in their lips? It's not that much as Gohan Boo had, but it's still some.

And I STILL don't understand what point you're trying to make.

It only happens when Boo gets hit by extremely stronger than him opponents, so it must mean that he takes real damage.

If I hit you in the stomack, you'd probably not bleed. If I hit you in the nose/lip, you'd probably bleed. Does that mean you took more damage when I hit you in the nose/lip?

Gotenks could hit Boo in the face and bring him to this state, but no blood ever came.

Yes. Boo was shot through multiple times, which means greater damage than just being punched.

You mean that bullets caused Boo more damage than Vegetto's punches?

So essentially your point had no purpose?

How? I pointed out examples of characters empowering their weapons with ki.

See? The description says that it's the sword that is able to cut through Freeza, and couldn't cut through SS Goku and #18. Surely one needs enough strength to use the sword to cut through such powerful beings as Freeza, but the sword is not empowered by the user and nothing suggests it is. Again an example with a rock. Trunks' sword can potentially cut it, but a human would hardly have enough strength to do that.

I never said that Trunks empowered his sword with ki against Freeza.

[hleV]

So, Evil Boo can spit bruises?

I can't be bothered to reply to all your other points about blood BECAUSE IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH ANYTHING. Boo's ability to bleed in no way suggests that a much stronger opponent can knock him out with a single punch. Blood only means that he got punched hard...

You mean that bullets caused Boo more damage than Vegetto's punches?

Not exactly. Vegetto's fist is bigger than a bullet, so even if it doesn't necessarily go through Boo, it deals damage to a bigger portion of his body. AND IT STILL MEANS NOTHING WHILE THE REST OF BOO'S BODY IS FINE. My point is that such attacks (single punch, single ki blast that goes through him, etc.) doesn't do harm to Boo. His whole body must be beaten up for him to weaken/get KO'd.

So essentially your point had no purpose?

How? I pointed out examples of characters empowering their weapons with ki.

It doesn't help you prove your point, thus is pointless.

See? The description says that it's the sword that is able to cut through Freeza, and couldn't cut through SS Goku and #18. Surely one needs enough strength to use the sword to cut through such powerful beings as Freeza, but the sword is not empowered by the user and nothing suggests it is. Again an example with a rock. Trunks' sword can potentially cut it, but a human would hardly have enough strength to do that.

I never said that Trunks empowered his sword with ki against Freeza.

Just pointing out that the description says that it's because of the sword's fineness that it can be used to slice such beings as Freeza, shooting down the theory of it being empowered with ki.

[Hugo Boss]

Well, Hildegarn was far stronger than U. Gohan, SS3 Gotenks, and SS3 Goku, but he had to use that special ability that transforms him into a ghost in order to avoid damage. For him to have such a defense mechanism, it makes me believe that his durability sucks hard. And SS3 Goku used his most powerful attack to kill him. So, we don't have definitive proof in M13 that Goku really is the strongest either.

Due to the outcome of the fights don't we have enough evidence of who is the strongest Z-Fighter in M13? Of course SS3 Gotenks & U. Gohan were caught off guard, but they weren't able to fight back either. In another hand, SS3 Goku was able to withstand Hildegarn's moves and attacks directly. Hildegarn was able to tank SS2 Vegeta's ki blasts with no problem, so his durability wasn't that bad, unless his transformation into fly-type mode could make his defenses worse aside from making him faster (maybe more powerful? we don't have proof either).

We also have this:

The phantom majin Hildegarn is a formidable opponent capable of trading blows evenly with even Super Saiyan 3 Goku, but since Janenba from the previous work "The Rebirth of Fusion!! Goku and Vegeta" could beat back Super Saiyan 3 Goku, strength-wise this makes him No.2 out of the movie series enemies.

Once more, Goku is treated as a measure stick, while Gohan & Gotenks are ignored. Feat-wise, Goku was the one to defeat Hildegarn, though I admit he has Toei's spotlight. But if Hildegarn is stronger than Gohan & Gotenks, who should be suposedly far stronger than Goku, why Toei give so much credit for such a feat, as far as to make Hildegarn the second strongest movie villain at date? And we also have Janenba, as the No. 1 villain, strength-wise ahead of Gohan & Gotenks.

The only pure Saiyans at that point are Goku & Vegeta (and Tarble, but he is irrelevant because he isn't a fighter). We've had other similar statements like this: We have U. Gohan being stronger than a Super Saiyan 3, Super Vegetto being perhaps stronger than a Super Saiyan 4, and SS4 Gogeta being stronger than dozens of times stronger than a Super Saiyan 4. When saying that someone is stronger than a pure Saiyan or a Super Saiyan 3 or a Super Saiyan 4, they are talking about every normal pure Saiyan or a Super Saiyan 3 or a Super Saiyan 4.

If you conclude a SS3 means a SS3, why do you conclude a pure Saiyan means every pure Saiyan in general? Strenght-wise, what exactly means a pure Saiyan? I recall the beginning of DBZ, Kid Gohan was also said to have power surpassing that of a pure-blooded Saiyan. Even Vegeta worried about Gohan's existance, so to say half-blooded Saiyans have potential to become "Super" Saiyans, though he didn't meant the transformation itself. Or we could interpret it as Gohan actually being stronger than Vegeta, which doesn't contradict BoG's bio statement. When Daizenshuu says U. Gohan has a power surpassing that of a SS3, I imediately think of SS3 Gotenks.

So, the official stuff don't want to admit that Goku, the main character, is not the strongest character. They make Goku & Vegeta (the current stars of the franchise) appear to be the strongest guys, but if you check back the facts, and pay attention, they are not the strongest.

I don't understand the reason they wouldn't admit it. Though we have a lot of manga statements that build up the idea of Gohan & Gotenks being potentially stronger than Goku & Vegeta, they never accomplish anything for us to say they are really stronger. The movies and anime fillers also doesn't help to "fact" that idea.

[Herms]

I recall the beginning of DBZ, Kid Gohan was also said to have power surpassing that of a pure-blooded Saiyan. Even Vegeta worried about Gohan's existance, so to say half-blooded Saiyans have potential to become "Super" Saiyans, though he didn't meant the transformation itself.

Really, the "stronger than a pure Saiyan" thing in Gohan's bio on the BoG website always struck me as more of a restating of the general idea of Saiyan/Earthling hybrids having greater potential than pure Saiyans, rather than some specific statement about how Ultimate Gohan stacks up against post-Boo arc Goku/Vegeta.

[Blade]

Really, the "stronger than a pure Saiyan" thing in Gohan's bio on the BoG website always struck me as more of a restating of the general idea of Saiyan/Earthling hybrids having greater potential than pure Saiyans, rather than some specific statement about how Ultimate Gohan stacks up against post-Boo arc Goku/Vegeta.

Can this be framed and nailed on the door? I want to cry every time I see that throwaway promotional biography remark used as steadfast, unshakeable affirmation of Gohan's superiority to X or Y character.

I mean, even if it isn't just a throwaway remark (which I'm fairly certain it is) - what does it really tell us? That his potential exceeds that of a pure blooded Saiyan? That's hardly groundbreaking - he surpassed Raditz and Nappa, two Saiyan Elite warriors, as in infant. In relation to Goku and Vegeta it's a meaningless remark, as they're hardly run-of-the-mill pure blooded Saiyans.

[hleV]

What's the exact quote, again? If it says potential, then it's definitely just repeating what everyone already knew. If it says power/strength or whatever, then I guess it's more subjective.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

It says Gohan has “power surpassing even that of a pure Saiyan”.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

That's part of his body, not blood. Gohan punched him in the stomach, and blood came out of his mouth, it kept coming out from his following hits, and we saw that there was blood in his lips after Gohan finished his combo.

I can't be bothered to reply to all your other points about blood BECAUSE IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH ANYTHING. Boo's ability to bleed in no way suggests that a much stronger opponent can knock him out with a single punch. Blood only means that he got punched hard...

Do you really not understand what I'm saying?

Not exactly. Vegetto's fist is bigger than a bullet, so even if it doesn't necessarily go through Boo, it deals damage to a bigger portion of his body. AND IT STILL MEANS NOTHING WHILE THE REST OF BOO'S BODY IS FINE. My point is that such attacks (single punch, single ki blast that goes through him, etc.) doesn't do harm to Boo. His whole body must be beaten up for him to weaken/get KO'd.

But then we saw Beers, who is supposed to be stronger than Vegetto, and unlike Vegetto he was going for the kill, using a kiai against Mr. Boo, who is much weaker than Gohan Boo, and KOed him. So, this proves that if Boo's opponent is massively stronger, he can KO him with one hit.

It doesn't help you prove your point, thus is pointless.

How? You asked why the chopsticks didn't break, and my (and others') answer was because he empowered them with his ki. Examples are F. Gohan, Yajirobe, and Tapion in the video-games, and the Swordsmen class of Earthlings (including Goten & Trunks) in DBO, who do the same thing with swords. I don't see how my point is pointless.

Just pointing out that the description says that it's because of the sword's fineness that it can be used to slice such beings as Freeza, shooting down the theory of it being empowered with ki.

What are you talking about? I never said that Trunks empowered his sword with ki against Freeza. I never said that anyone empowered any weapon with ki in the manga.

Due to the outcome of the fights don't we have enough evidence of who is the strongest Z-Fighter in M13? Of course SS3 Gotenks & U. Gohan were caught off guard, but they weren't able to fight back either. In another hand, SS3 Goku was able to withstand Hildegarn's moves and attacks directly. Hildegarn was able to tank SS2 Vegeta's ki blasts with no problem, so his durability wasn't that bad, unless his transformation into fly-type mode could make his defenses worse aside from making him faster (maybe more powerful? we don't have proof either).

SS3 Goku was fully ready to take the hits & withstand the pain, and he almost lost consciousness from the hits, until he managed to stay awake thanks to his willpower. Gohan was worried about Videl and got attacked suddenly, and SS3 Gotenks was shocked with Hildegarn's transformation, and took a charged flying punch. And SS2 Vegeta's ki blasts probably didn't do anything because he wasn't strong enough to cause him damage (I'm not saying that Hildegarn's durability sucks that much).

We also have this:

The phantom majin Hildegarn is a formidable opponent capable of trading blows evenly with even Super Saiyan 3 Goku, but since Janenba from the previous work "The Rebirth of Fusion!! Goku and Vegeta" could beat back Super Saiyan 3 Goku, strength-wise this makes him No.2 out of the movie series enemies.

Once more, Goku is treated as a measure stick, while Gohan & Gotenks are ignored. Feat-wise, Goku was the one to defeat Hildegarn, though I admit he has Toei's spotlight. But if Hildegarn is stronger than Gohan & Gotenks, who should be suposedly far stronger than Goku, why Toei give so much credit for such a feat, as far to make Hildegarn the second strongest movie villain at date? And we also have Janenba, as the No. 1 villain, strength-wise ahead of Gohan & Gotenks.

Well, I find this a little questionable, because they don't take into account that Gohan & Gotenks should be stronger than Goku, they don't take into account that Janenba overpowered SS3 Goku because of both his power & his magical abilities, and they don't take into account that Goku used a special attack against Hildegarn to kill him. They just go by "Janenba beats Goku, Goku beats Hildegarn, so Janenba beats Hildegarn", which is dumb because for example, in the beginning of Z, "Goku beats Piccolo, and Piccolo beats Raditz, so Goku beats Raditz", which is obviously wrong. There are many other factors other than the fighter's BP is some cases.

If you conclude a SS3 means a SS3, why do you conclude a pure Saiyan means every pure Saiyan in general? Strenght-wise, what exactly means a pure Saiyan?

Strength-wise, a pure Saiyan is what Goku & Vegeta is, since they are the only pure Saiyans alive (Tarble doesn't count since he isn't a fighter).

I recall the beginning of DBZ, Kid Gohan was also said to have power surpassing that of a pure-blooded Saiyan. Even Vegeta worried about Gohan's existance, so to say half-blooded Saiyans have potential to become "Super" Saiyans, though he didn't meant the transformation itself. Or we could interpret it as Gohan actually being stronger than Vegeta, which doesn't contradict BoG's bio statement.

Well, not exactly:

Chapter: 204 (DBZ 10), P12.1-2
Vegeta: “At any rate, the battle power of Kakarot’s son is unusually high, even by the standards of Saiyan children.”
Nappa: “Maybe his reading was wrong.”
Vegeta: “No, it wasn’t wrong. Raditz really took a large amount of damage from that brat’s attack. It seems that mixing Saiyan and Earthling blood begets a powerful hybrid.”

Vegeta implies that Gohan has potential to surpass the pure Saiyans, while in the BoG bio, he is stated to have power that surpasses that of a pure Saiyan.

When Daizenshuu says U. Gohan has a power surpassing that of a SS3, I imediately think of SS3 Gotenks.

Well, I think of every Super Saiyan 3 in general.

I don't understand the reason they wouldn't admit it.

Because it sounds more exciting to say that "Beerus is stronger than Super Saiyan 3 Goku!!!" than "Beerus is stronger than Ultimate Gohan!!!" or "Beerus is stronger than Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks!!!" when promoting a movie where Goku is the main character. They want to have Goku in the spotlight, since he is the protagonist, so having stronger secondary characters than the main character causes some problems.

Though we have a lot of manga statements that build up the idea of Gohan & Gotenks being potentially stronger than Goku & Vegeta, they never accomplish anything for us to say they are really stronger.

Well, Gohan & Gotenks beat the shit out of Evil Boo, while Goku was shitting his pants with the idea of fighting Evil Boo, and was aiming to remove everyone from inside him so that they can weaken him & manage something.

[hleV]

That's part of his body, not blood. Gohan punched him in the stomach, and blood came out of his mouth, it kept coming out from his following hits, and we saw that there was blood in his lips after Gohan finished his combo.

If those blood-looking things are parts of his body, then how can you be so sure that it's blood that comes out of his mouth?

Do you really not understand what I'm saying?

I understand what you're saying. I also understand that it has nothing to do with Boo being KO'd with a punch/kiai. You never pointed out how it's relevant. Even if Boo only bleeds when getting hit by someone much stronger than him, it's still irrelevant. Blood isn't above bruises when it comes to damage evidence.

But then we saw Beers, who is supposed to be stronger than Vegetto, and unlike Vegetto he was going for the kill, using a kiai against Mr. Boo, who is much weaker than Gohan Boo, and KOed him. So, this proves that if Boo's opponent is massively stronger, he can KO him with one hit.

I just rewatched the scene and it appears that it's the kiai that KO'd Boo, not the punch afterwards (which I believed to be the case). It still doesn't make any sense, because Boo didn't seem to receive any damage whatsoever. Being stronger than Boo doesn't mean that Boo just gets KO'd without taking any damage. That scene is absurd.

It doesn't help you prove your point, thus is pointless.

How? You asked why the chopsticks didn't break, and my (and others') answer was because he empowered them with his ki. Examples are F. Gohan, Yajirobe, and Tapion in the video-games, and the Swordsmen class of Earthlings (including Goten & Trunks) in DBO, who do the same thing with swords. I don't see how my point is pointless.

Video game examples don't help you prove your point, so what's the point of bringing it up? Seriously, tell me what's the point. What were you trying to achieve with bringing video games up?

Just pointing out that the description says that it's because of the sword's fineness that it can be used to slice such beings as Freeza, shooting down the theory of it being empowered with ki.

What are you talking about? I never said that Trunks empowered his sword with ki against Freeza. I never said that anyone empowered any weapon with ki in the manga.

I never said you said anything. It was directed at anyone in this thread that thought that characters empowered things with ki.

[Hugo Boss]

SS3 Goku was fully ready to take the hits & withstand the pain, and he almost lost consciousness from the hits, until he managed to stay awake thanks to his willpower. Gohan was worried about Videl and got attacked suddenly, and SS3 Gotenks was shocked with Hildegarn's transformation, and took a charged flying punch.

I think, in Dragon Ball Franchise, strenght has more to do with the things they are able to accomplish, rather than raw power itself. If Goku was ready to take the hits while Gohan & Gotenks didn't react in time, it means he has a better battle sense, which casually is a component of overall strenght. Both Gohan & Gotenks were astonished by their enemy while Goku was still fighting and came up with a super technique. This fact may suggest the idea of Goku being the strongest in M13.

Well, I find this a little questionable, because they don't take into account that Gohan & Gotenks should be stronger than Goku, they don't take into account that Janenba overpowered SS3 Goku because of both his power & his magical abilities, and they don't take into account that Goku used a special attack against Hildegarn to kill him. They just go by "Janenba beats Goku, Goku beats Hildegarn, so Janenba beats Hildegarn", which is dumb because for example, in the beginning of Z, "Goku beats Piccolo, and Piccolo beats Raditz, so Goku beats Raditz", which is obviously wrong. There are many other factors other than the fighter's BP is some cases.

I believe they take into account what is simple about the movies, I don't think it is dumb just to assume "Janenba beats Goku, Goku beats Hildegarn, so Janenba beats Hildegarn". Piccolo beat Raditz with Goku & Gohan's help. Gohan & Gotenks should be stronger than Goku but, well, they didn't accomplish any substantial feat. Janenba was stronger than Goku, since Goku wasn't able to beat him alone, while he was able to beat Hildegarn alone. I doubt Ryu-ken would work against Janenba, but it is debatable.

Strength-wise, a pure Saiyan is what Goku & Vegeta is, since they are the only pure Saiyans alive (Tarble doesn't count since he isn't a fighter).

Even so, the statement is not clear about if it is every pure Saiyan at date, it just says a pure Saiyan, which is vague. If Gohan is stronger than Vegeta, but weaker than Goku, the statement would still remain intact.

Vegeta implies that Gohan has potential to surpass the pure Saiyans, while in the BoG bio, he is stated to have power that surpasses that of a pure Saiyan.

Maybe I didn't phrase it correctly, but this is the same idea I have. Gohan's power was surpassing pure Saiyans', while now it has surpassed theirs. Still pretty vague.

When Daizenshuu says U. Gohan has a power surpassing that of a SS3, I imediately think of SS3 Gotenks.

Well, I think of every Super Saiyan 3 in general.

However, "surpassing" means it still hasn't reached the point to make the statement clear. We can say Gohan is stronger than Gotenks since he put a better fight against Boo, but he also lacked maturity to destroy him.

I don't understand the reason they wouldn't admit it.

Because it sounds more exciting to say that "Beerus is stronger than Super Saiyan 3 Goku!!!" than "Beerus is stronger than Ultimate Gohan!!!" or "Beerus is stronger than Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks!!!" when promoting a movie where Goku is the main character. They want to have Goku in the spotlight, since he is the protagonist, so having stronger secondary characters than the main character causes some problems.

The problem here is that it sounds like they were fodderizing Gohan & Gotenks only for this purpose. If Gohan & Gotenks are known by DB Franchise's Community to be powerhouses much greater than Goku, Beerus' hype would be more convincing, don't you think? Like this: "Ah, Beerus is just a lot stronger than SS3 Goku? If they said he was more powerful than Gohan I would give him much credit."

Well, Gohan & Gotenks beat the shit out of Evil Boo, while Goku was shitting his pants with the idea of fighting Evil Boo, and was aiming to remove everyone from inside him so that they can weaken him & manage something.

This particular scene always confused me. Here we have a strong assumption that Goku & Vegeta can't beat Evil Boo and expected to manage something against Innocent Boo. Later, we get the impression they never intended to fight together, but one at a time, and Goku right away transforms into SS3 and retcon himself saying he should be able to beat Innocent Boo with some ease, as Vegeta also recognizes Goku was a lot stronger than he previously thought after seeing him fight.

[Blade]

It says Gohan has “power surpassing even that of a pure Saiyan”.

Yeah, so he'd be stronger than Raditz, Nappa and Tarble - that's hardly revealing. If it were to say that he had power surpassing 'any' Saiyan or 'all' Saiyans, then that would be a better indication of superiority to Goku and Vegeta - but even still, what we're talking about here is just a throwaway online biography remark for a promotional website that was probably thrown together by some marketing intern.

If only he knew how many strength debates he's caused.

[Draken]

This particular scene always confused me. Here we have a strong assumption that Goku & Vegeta can't beat Evil Boo and expected to manage something against Innocent Boo. Later, we get the impression they never intended to fight together, but one at a time, and Goku right away transforms into SS3 and retcon himself saying he should be able to beat Innocent Boo with some ease, as Vegeta also recognizes Goku was a lot stronger than he previously thought after seeing him fight.

Because Pure Buu was incredibly weak compared to Super Buu and they now had a chance? No retcon.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

If those blood-looking things are parts of his body, then how can you be so sure that it's blood that comes out of his mouth?

Because I don't see Gohan ripping any part of Boo's body, and it comes from his mouth.

I understand what you're saying. I also understand that it has nothing to do with Boo being KO'd with a punch/kiai. You never pointed out how it's relevant. Even if Boo only bleeds when getting hit by someone much stronger than him, it's still irrelevant. Blood isn't above bruises when it comes to damage evidence.

I... I'm not sure how it's relevant.

Being stronger than Boo doesn't mean that Boo just gets KO'd without taking any damage.

Says who?

Video game examples don't help you prove your point, so what's the point of bringing it up? Seriously, tell me what's the point. What were you trying to achieve with bringing video games up?

How don't they help prove my point? They are official installments of a franchise with no official canon (not saying that because Trunks does it in a game he can do it in the manga), and they have examples of fighters empowering their weapons with ki. So, it's possible that the same thing happens with Beerus here.

*post*

Well, I'm not saying that Goku being stronger than Gohan & Gotenks in M13 & BoG is a fact. What I'm saying is that there isn't enough evidence in the movies that make Goku being stronger or weaker than Gohan & Gotenks 100% true, and since Goku says in the 28th Tenkaichi Budokai arc that Oob is going to be a very strong guy, that perhaps the Z-Senshi in the tournament (Goku, Vegeta, Mr. Boo, Trunks, Goten, and Pan) may lose to him, implying that Oob could probably be at Pure Boo's level, and after testing him says that Oob was truly as strong as he expecting him to be (but can't control his power), it implies that Goku hasn't gotten much stronger over the 10 years (except for Super Saiyan God, which he wouldn't use on Oob, because the point of his fight with Oob was to test himself & prove that with training, he can beat Majin Boo, and God didn't come from his training so it would be pointless to use it & literally beat Oob with his finger in God base).

So, since during the Majin Boo arc we have U. Gohan > SS3 Gotenks > Evil Boo > Pure Boo > SS3 Goku, with SS Gotenks implied to be many times stronger than SS3 Goku in guidebooks, and since in the 28th Tenkaichi Budokai arc, we have Enraged Oob = Pure Boo, with Goku being unsure if he could win against Oob (presumably as a SS3, since in God he would be too strong, and anything from base to SS2 would be too weak, and because the point of the fight was that he wanted a rematch with Boo (now Oob) to prove to himself that he is the strongest), Goku can't be stronger than Gohan & Gotenks in M13 & BoG, since they take place before the tournament.

Yeah, so he'd be stronger than Raditz, Nappa and Tarble - that's hardly revealing.

Raditz & Nappa are dead for nearly 20 years, and Tarble isn't a fighter. Goku & Vegeta are the only pure Saiyans fighters alive.

[hleV]

I understand what you're saying. I also understand that it has nothing to do with Boo being KO'd with a punch/kiai. You never pointed out how it's relevant. Even if Boo only bleeds when getting hit by someone much stronger than him, it's still irrelevant. Blood isn't above bruises when it comes to damage evidence.

I... I'm not sure how it's relevant.

The whole blood thing is absolutely irrelevant to Boo being KO'd.

Being stronger than Boo doesn't mean that Boo just gets KO'd without taking any damage.

Says who?

The fact that Boo has shown to remain conscious as long as he isn't completely beaten up/sleeping/destroyed. BOG contradicts Boo's physiology by getting him KO'd without dealing any visible damage. If your only response to my completely valid point is "says who?", then consider not responding at all.

Video game examples don't help you prove your point, so what's the point of bringing it up? Seriously, tell me what's the point. What were you trying to achieve with bringing video games up?

How don't they help prove my point? They are official installments of a franchise with no official canon (not saying that because Trunks does it in a game he can do it in the manga), and they have examples of fighters empowering their weapons with ki. So, it's possible that the same thing happens with Beerus here.

They empower weapons with ki in video games. What about it? How does that help you prove your point in a discussion about the manga and BOG? Were you trying to enlighten me about it being done in video games, so I would perhaps consider that BOG follows video game logic? Because there's no way in hell video games follow the series' logic. Even a guidebook says that Freeza was sliced thanks to the sword itself, and that it couldn't slice Goku or #18. Nothing indicates that an item could be powered with ki like that in the series and no video game will convince me otherwise. Either the chopstick scene was a gag or a DB logic contradiction.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

The whole blood thing is absolutely irrelevant to Boo being KO'd.

Wait, I remember why I brought it up. First of all, check the update from Tyro in the colored manga, Evil Boo bled from Gohan's hits.
Now, my point was that if someone is much stronger than Boo, he can cause him real damage (unlike the holes from bullets or spears), which means that he can get bruises, and even bleed. Examples are the fights with Gotenks, Gohan, Pure Boo, and Vegetto. So, if he can take real damage and even feel pain (like everyone), then the damage should have the same consequences that normal people have, which includes losing consciousness, and BoG shows that it really is possible. So, someone like Pure Boo will have to hit Boo 50 times to KO him, but someone like Beerus can do the same with 1 hit.

The fact that Boo has shown to remain conscious as long as he isn't completely beaten up/sleeping/destroyed. BOG contradicts Boo's physiology by getting him KO'd without dealing any visible damage. If your only response to my completely valid point is "says who?", then consider not responding at all.

And like I said, the power difference between Beerus & Mr. Boo is faaar bigger than the power difference between Super Vegetto & Gohan Boo, U. Gohan & Evil Boo, SS3 Gotenks & Evil Boo, and Pure Boo & Mr. Boo:

• SS3 Gotenks vs Evil Boo - They were almost equals.
• U. Gohan vs Evil Boo - Gohan was significantly, yet less than 2 times stronger than Boo.
• Super Vegetto vs Gohan Boo - Vegetto was dozens of times stronger, maybe more, but it's irrelevant, because Vegetto was toying around and wasn't trying to kill, or even KO Boo.
• Pure Boo vs Mr. Boo - Pure Boo was a few times stronger than Mr. Boo.
• Beerus vs Mr. Boo - Beerus is supposed to be stronger than Vegetto & Gohan Boo, while Mr. Boo is many dozens of times weaker than Gohan Boo, and Beerus was trying to kill Boo.

The biggest power difference between Boo & an opponent (in a serious fight) was between Mr. Boo & Pure Boo (at most ~5 times), so what you say applies to a gap similar to this. However, Beerus is many, many, many dozens of times stronger than Mr. Boo, and we haven't seen a serious fight between Boo & an opponent like this before, so what we see is something new, and what you say doesn't apply. Except if you can prove that

They empower weapons with ki in video games. What about it? How does that help you prove your point in a discussion about the manga and BOG? Were you trying to enlighten me about it being done in video games, so I would perhaps consider that BOG follows video game logic? Because there's no way in hell video games follow the series' logic. Even a guidebook says that Freeza was sliced thanks to the sword itself, and that it couldn't slice Goku or #18. Nothing indicates that an item could be powered with ki like that in the series and no video game will convince me otherwise. Either the chopstick scene was a gag or a DB logic contradiction.

If you want to completely ignore the video games, fine. But DBO, which follows the manga and has its story written from Toriyama, does have empowering weapons with ki, and it plays a significant role in the story. So there is that.

[hleV]

The whole blood thing is absolutely irrelevant to Boo being KO'd.

Wait, I remember why I brought it up. First of all, check the update from Tyro in the colored manga, Evil Boo bled from Gohan's hits.
Now, my point was that if someone is much stronger than Boo, he can cause him real damage (unlike the holes from bullets or spears), which means that he can get bruises, and even bleed. Examples are the fights with Gotenks, Gohan, Pure Boo, and Vegetto. So, if he can take real damage and even feel pain (like everyone), then the damage should have the same consequences that normal people have, which includes losing consciousness, and BoG shows that it really is possible. So, someone like Pure Boo will have to hit Boo 50 times to KO him, but someone like Beerus can do the same with 1 hit.

Blood/physical damage/etc. have nothing to do with the awkward way Boo got KO'd in BOG. Boo can take real damage from strong opponents, but it's not what I'm arguing about! Boo is not that kind of a being that would get KO'd without taking visible damage to every bit of his magical body. Vegetto destroyed Boo's antenna (not punched, not used a kiai, but absolutely destroyed), yet Boo was fine. Surely the destruction of Boo's body part amounts to more than just being knocked away with a kiai and suffering no visible damage. Oob's kiai against Goku, which was supposedly weaker than the one Beerus did, at least tore his clothes, whereas Beerus' did just push Boo away. And magically knock him out.
Beerus also KO'd multiple other people, some of them stronger than Mr. Boo. Are you saying that Beerus used way more power than supposedly needed against Boo but not the others? He wasn't going for the kill because he still bothered to go and pick a KO'd Boo up to punch him. Yet he didn't know about Boo body's "properties" and could only judge him from his ki. So how did Boo get KO'd but not killed? Oh, right, he didn't die because his body remained fine! So what now, was he put to sleep by being pushed away?
You can argue all you want about BOG "creating new rules about how Boo can be KO'd", but this clearly contradicts the already established logic and diminishes Boo's abilities/uniqueness. I know Beerus is capable of knocking enemies out without seemingly dealing damage (touching Vegeta's forehead, for instance), but this didn't seem to be it.

The fact that Boo has shown to remain conscious as long as he isn't completely beaten up/sleeping/destroyed. BOG contradicts Boo's physiology by getting him KO'd without dealing any visible damage. If your only response to my completely valid point is "says who?", then consider not responding at all.

And like I said, the power difference between Beerus & Mr. Boo is faaar bigger than the power difference between Super Vegetto & Gohan Boo, U. Gohan & Evil Boo, SS3 Gotenks & Evil Boo, and Pure Boo & Mr. Boo:

• SS3 Gotenks vs Evil Boo - They were almost equals.
• U. Gohan vs Evil Boo - Gohan was significantly, yet less than 2 times stronger than Boo.
• Super Vegetto vs Gohan Boo - Vegetto was dozens of times stronger, maybe more, but it's irrelevant, because Vegetto was toying around and wasn't trying to kill, or even KO Boo.
• Pure Boo vs Mr. Boo - Pure Boo was a few times stronger than Mr. Boo.
• Beerus vs Mr. Boo - Beerus is supposed to be stronger than Vegetto & Gohan Boo, while Mr. Boo is many dozens of times weaker than Gohan Boo, and Beerus was trying to kill Boo.

The biggest power difference between Boo & an opponent (in a serious fight) was between Mr. Boo & Pure Boo (at most ~5 times), so what you say applies to a gap similar to this. However, Beerus is many, many, many dozens of times stronger than Mr. Boo, and we haven't seen a serious fight between Boo & an opponent like this before, so what we see is something new, and what you say doesn't apply. Except if you can prove that

What you're saying is that if the opponent is strong enough, Boo gets KO'd by a kiai which knocks him less than a mile away and deals no visible damage, implying that it's more damage than what Boo (any form) had experienced in the past. That is outright ridiculous, because he had remained conscious after having part of his body destroyed, having his body continuously beaten by stronger opponents, being blown up to smithereens, etc. Beerus, in comparison, literally did nothing to Boo besides sending him flying.

If you want to completely ignore the video games, fine. But DBO, which follows the manga and has its story written from Toriyama, does have empowering weapons with ki, and it plays a significant role in the story. So there is that.

Can you provide more info on weapon empowering with ki in DBO that is not just a gameplay element? Though I'm interested in gameplay elements of that kind as well. I had a level 50 swordsman and nothing like that came up.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Are you saying that Beerus used way more power than supposedly needed against Boo but not the others?

It was Boo who ate the pudding, and this is why this whole mess happened, so sure, why not? He didn't even bother to hit Tenshinhan, and he was even testing Vegeta, his problem was mainly with Boo.

That is outright ridiculous, because he had remained conscious after having part of his body destroyed, having his body continuously beaten by stronger opponents, being blown up to smithereens, etc.

And yet he got KOed by getting punched... Once Boo takes normal damage from his stronger opponents, the same rules that apply to everyone apply to him as well: he will get bruises, he will bleed, he will lose energy, he will get KOed. He can heal the damage, but until that happens, he gets damaged normally. He will heal, but he will get the damage until then. All these are shown in the manga. The manga shows that after getting a certain amount of damage, his power will start to drop, and he will even lose consciousness, which is exactly what happens to everyone. Beerus just did more damage to Boo with his Kiai than Pure Boo did with his hits.

Can you provide more info on weapon empowering with ki in DBO that is not just a gameplay element? Though I'm interested in gameplay elements of that kind as well. I had a level 50 swordsman and nothing like that came up.

Sure:

AGE 804
Gohan begins researching the martial arts of the past, organizing them in “The Science of Ki-Control”
The death of his father causes Gohan to reflect on the power he wields, and so he devoted himself to scholarly research on the source of that strength—“ki”. “The Science of Ki-Control”, the book in which Gohan organized the results of his research, quietly gains popularity. One of the articles, “Katchin Can be Cut!”, has an immense influence in the birth of the "Swordsman" class.
[Ref: From the DBO timeline.]

In-game footage.