The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

[TobyS]

One panel of artistic flair showing these guys have got stronger and have godly potential and shit now doesn't mean anything.

Regardless this taking place right after RoF could make it pre retcon.

We see Goku behind Gohan during the father son kamehameha too but he's not literally there or literally adding power.

We used to see oozaru behind Goku when 10x would have been an unnecessary boost. It's just to show they are using their full power and/or have a deeoer well within them. Or it just looks cool.

Believe what you want but we aren't going to agree on this.

Goku got SS3 in seven years of heavenly training in ten years Trunks got as strong as that in a minor form (he's a hybrid like Gohan so being twice as strong in a few more years fits perfectly in the same way SS1 Gohan was a good chunk above SS1 Cell games Goku.

If he could get godly in, both as maximum potential and do it that quickly he'd had way surpassed vegeta in the rosat and he wouldn't have needed time travel and shit. The manga deliberately doesn't have him gain a godly power up or go to toe with merged zamasu. he isn't anywhere near that level.

I'm not a huge fan of the two base, as I said it was an *attempt* by fans to make the senseless anime make sense when it can't.

The manga continuity is cleaner.

We aren't gonna agree on this and you anime stand aren't gonna budge on loving your superfluous power inflation so let's agree to disagree.

[TobyS]

Heart Virus SSJ Goku vs Kaioken X20 Goku (Namek)

Tien Cell saga vs Goku Namek saga (no Kaioken, no Kikoho.)

Pikkon vs Dabura

Tien (Buu saga) vs 50% Frieza (No Shin Kikoho)

Piccolo (Nameless Namekian fusion Cell saga) vs SSJ Goten and SSj Trunks

Final Form Frieza (Resurection F) vs Buuhan (But with Gotenks still active. So Buuhanks?)

So heart virus Goku is still stronger then Trunks saga SS Goku based on Tens amazement.

Piccolo is the only one to comment on the power drop having seen him more recently.

Pikon beat Cell but cells the weakest of SS2s
Dabra is compared to Cell and then revised upwards by Goku.

So if like me you think Dabra was Super Perfect Cell level and then revised above that'd give Dabra the edge.

Regardless I think the stone spit would catch him off guard.

Hmm we know BoG base Goku isn't above final form Freeza 100% but we don't know how close. We gotta assume 80% at max.

We know the humans didn't surpass base Goku.

My heart says highballing Ten could make him like 60% Freeza but that's probably not a big enough gap between him and Goku although Buu saga ten hasn't had the post buu time to catch up to goku's static-till-super-imo base form imo.

So yeah Ten loses unless he can kaioken or kikiho then he wins easily.

Piccolo might need his first or both visits to the Rosat. I personally like to really lowball the kids and just have them be fusion fodder. But most people go by that one line in the daiz that says gotens about on par with Gohan which i think is silly and implies trunks is stronger than Gohan...

RoF is weird it's pre retcon of godly power in base form. Gohan is scared of first form Freeza although he has lost ultimate.

Then Goku in base fights even with him 3 transforms above that it's mental power inflation.

We don't know where ult would fit in between those points there's a shortage of strength statements and stuff imo.

I think it's implied ult gohan and fat buu are both above the initial Freeza they sense. They are confident of winning untill they find out Gohans lost his mojo and buu ain't coming and then they see Freezas only in his weakest form too...

So I guess Buuhanks would be somewhere from needing third form to be beaten or straight up winning. But I'm going on the lower end of that scale.

In the hypothetical unseen manga version of those events I'm going with Buuhanks.

The regen is an under rated benefit. Perhaps the magic would stick if done to him when he's not golden. That'd be funny if buu transforms 1st form Freeza into a non sentient gumball. and eats him.

Absorption could seal the deal too in either medium.

[SupremeKai25]

This whole discussion about canon is useless anyway, Future Zamasu oneshots anyone from Z. He overpowered SSB Goku at one point (do you see Buuhan doing that? When he couldn't even deal with Z SSJ Vegito?) and has immortality and flawless regeneration capabilities (even Cell and Buu could be destroyed, Zamasu can't).

Just don't compare Z and Super characters, I'm pretty sure it's made clear that Super Saiyan God is already above Buu-saga Vegito, i.e. the strongest character in Z.

When does he overpower blue in the manga? Goku says red is plenty and without black he wouldn't take over the universe even with his immortality.

I agree with SSGod > Buu vegito but I don't agree with every non god trained character and Kaioshin who comes after magically being in either of those tiers.

I'm not talking about the manga and frankly I don't care about that product.

[TobyS]

This whole discussion about canon is useless anyway, Future Zamasu oneshots anyone from Z. He overpowered SSB Goku at one point (do you see Buuhan doing that? When he couldn't even deal with Z SSJ Vegito?) and has immortality and flawless regeneration capabilities (even Cell and Buu could be destroyed, Zamasu can't).

Just don't compare Z and Super characters, I'm pretty sure it's made clear that Super Saiyan God is already above Buu-saga Vegito, i.e. the strongest character in Z.

When does he overpower blue in the manga? Goku says red is plenty and without black he wouldn't take over the universe even with his immortality.

I agree with SSGod > Buu vegito but I don't agree with every non god trained character and Kaioshin who comes after magically being in either of those tiers.

I'm not talking about the manga and frankly I don't care about that product.

I'm the reverse.

I've long argued they split at least the in universe or super sections into manga and anime, every question requires two answers unless the OP specifies otherwise. Vegetto ex didn't seem interested in that as a solution as I recall. Why music and Kai (finished and only an altered version of a finished product get their own.

GT as much as I hate it and expanded/xeno stuff deserve their own sub, it's weird to discuss heroes you have to look at the game thread the anime thread and the manga thread in three separate areas of the forum idk I think it needs a restructure.

[ZombieVito]

Heart Virus SSJ Goku vs Kaioken X20 Goku (Namek)

Tien Cell saga vs Goku Namek saga (no Kaioken, no Kikoho.)

Pikkon vs Dabura

Tien (Buu saga) vs 50% Frieza (No Shin Kikoho)

Piccolo (Nameless Namekian fusion Cell saga) vs SSJ Goten and SSj Trunks

Final Form Frieza (Resurection F) vs Buuhan (But with Gotenks still active. So Buuhanks?)

SS Goku is stronger but the heart virus gives way more strain than Kaioken. He loses after a few minutes.
A repeat of their 23rd TB match. Goku wins after a good fight.
Dabura. Pikkon caught Cell of guard.
None of the humans surpassed the 10's of millions until the ToP.
Piccolo loses badly.
Even regular Buutenks wins.

Strong disagree with the last two, but the others seem fair.

CG Piccolo woukd be lucky to beat one SS kid. 2 at the same time is a lost cause. Maybe Boo arc Piccolo can manage.

Freeza and Base Goku in the RoF arc aren't that powerful. A stronger opponent (base Commeson Vegeta) failed to kill or defuse Gotenks for 5 minutes.

Bootenks also has magic, regeneration and absorption.

[Mad Swami]

SS Goku is stronger but the heart virus gives way more strain than Kaioken. He loses after a few minutes.
A repeat of their 23rd TB match. Goku wins after a good fight.
Dabura. Pikkon caught Cell of guard.
None of the humans surpassed the 10's of millions until the ToP.
Piccolo loses badly.
Even regular Buutenks wins.

Strong disagree with the last two, but the others seem fair.

CG Piccolo woukd be lucky to beat one SS kid. 2 at the same time is a lost cause. Maybe Boo arc Piccolo can manage.

Freeza and Base Goku in the RoF arc aren't that powerful. A stronger opponent (base Commeson Vegeta) failed to kill or defuse Gotenks for 5 minutes.

Bootenks also has magic, regeneration and absorption.

The kids in SSJ struggle with 18, and she's probably around Piccolo's Cell saga level imo

They were god level. Commeson Vegeta is never stated to empower Vegeta, is it? I don't think it is

[ZombieVito]

Strong disagree with the last two, but the others seem fair.

CG Piccolo woukd be lucky to beat one SS kid. 2 at the same time is a lost cause. Maybe Boo arc Piccolo can manage.

Freeza and Base Goku in the RoF arc aren't that powerful. A stronger opponent (base Commeson Vegeta) failed to kill or defuse Gotenks for 5 minutes.

Bootenks also has magic, regeneration and absorption.

The kids in SSJ struggle with 18, and she's probably around Piccolo's Cell saga level imo

They were god level. Commeson Vegeta is never stated to empower Vegeta, is it? I don't think it is

That's anime filler. They only turn SS and Trunks does that ki blast that makes 18 shit herself. That's it.

Commeson Vegeta is an exact copy of Vegeta. The fact that Gotenks lasted 5 minutes means their bases aren't THAT much stronger than the upper tiers of the Boo arc.

[Mad Swami]

CG Piccolo woukd be lucky to beat one SS kid. 2 at the same time is a lost cause. Maybe Boo arc Piccolo can manage.

Freeza and Base Goku in the RoF arc aren't that powerful. A stronger opponent (base Commeson Vegeta) failed to kill or defuse Gotenks for 5 minutes.

Bootenks also has magic, regeneration and absorption.

The kids in SSJ struggle with 18, and she's probably around Piccolo's Cell saga level imo

They were god level. Commeson Vegeta is never stated to empower Vegeta, is it? I don't think it is

That's anime filler. They only turn SS and Trunks does that ki blast that makes 18 shit herself. That's it.

Commeson Vegeta is an exact copy of Vegeta. The fact that Gotenks lasted 5 minutes means their bases aren't THAT much stronger than the upper tiers of the Boo arc.

Android 18 kicked the crap out of them when they were in base but was impressed by the power of their SSJ. Nothing indicates they were stronger than her individually let alone, together.

Gotenks only lasted for as long as he did because Vegeta never did anything. Remember, Goku absorbed the God form and as did Vegeta. That might have been retconed but in RoF it wasn't

[ZombieVito]

Android 18 kicked the crap out of them when they were in base but was impressed by the power of their SSJ. Nothing indicates they were stronger than her individually let alone, together.

Gotenks only lasted for as long as he did because Vegeta never did anything. Remember, Goku absorbed the God form and as did Vegeta. That might have been retconed but in RoF it wasn't

The kids are way stronger than her. They managed to spar with Gohan and Vegeta as super saiyans and are you really going to ignore her terrified face at a blast that Trunks didn't even put all his power into it?



The kids also fight multiple Cell Juniors in the manga and managed to hold on somewhat.

You might want to watch the fight again. Commeson Vegeta did attack and Gotenks didn't defuse or died instantly. He endured the full 5 minutes.

[Mad Swami]

Android 18 kicked the crap out of them when they were in base but was impressed by the power of their SSJ. Nothing indicates they were stronger than her individually let alone, together.

Gotenks only lasted for as long as he did because Vegeta never did anything. Remember, Goku absorbed the God form and as did Vegeta. That might have been retconed but in RoF it wasn't

The kids are way stronger than her. They managed to spar with Gohan and Vegeta as super saiyans and are you really going to ignore her terrified face at a blast that Trunks didn't even put all his power into it?



The kids also fight multiple Cell Juniors in the manga and managed to hold on somewhat.

You might want to watch the fight again. Commeson Vegeta did attack and Gotenks didn't defuse or died instantly. He endured the full 5 minutes.

Trunks and Goten and Super are a bit of a different story. Goten fights Gohan but due to Gohan's thought "These kids'll leave me in the dust if i'm not careful" I feel he was comfortably above his brother, by a lot even. I think the comment is more about their potential and quick adaption. The spar with Vegeta shouldn't say anything seeing as Vegeta is way above the kids. I would say Trunks and Goten as ssj are like Yardrat Goku level (That is pre HTC for them). Maybe their more on the level of Kamicolo (Cell saga). I could be wrong. However in Super they are far different. I would also add her reaction is maybe more shock due to their age.

I rewatched the fight. It took him three shots to beat them and they defused after. They didn't last five minutes. After two minutes of attacking Vegeta the boys are met with a counter attack and are knocked to the ground. I also could see that not being the full extent of his power but I don't know. I would say if you low ball their bases in that arc or the last, they are at least SSJ Vegito level

[ZombieVito]

Trunks and Goten and Super are a bit of a different story. Goten fights Gohan but due to Gohan's thought "These kids'll leave me in the dust if i'm not careful" I feel he was comfortably above his brother, by a lot even. I think the comment is more about their potential and quick adaption. The spar with Vegeta shouldn't say anything seeing as Vegeta is way above the kids. I would say Trunks and Goten as ssj are like Yardrat Goku level at best (That is pre HTC for them). However in Super they are far different. I would also add her reaction is maybe more shock due to their age.

I rewatched the fight. It took him three shots to beat them and they defused after. They didn't last five minutes. After two minutes of attacking Vegeta the boys are met with a counter attack and are knocked to the ground. I also could see that not being the full extent of his power but I don't know. I would say if you low ball their bases in that arc or the last, they are at least SSJ Vegito level

There's absolutely no way a so so blast from a SS Yadart Goku fighter will cause that reaction out of 18. She would also have no reason to resort to disqualifying them if she was stronger.

Watch it again. When Kaio and Goku sense Gotenks we see more of the fight and he is blocking Commeson Vegeta's punches. After that we see him hitting Gotenks at least 10 times and then they defuse.

[Mad Swami]

Trunks and Goten and Super are a bit of a different story. Goten fights Gohan but due to Gohan's thought "These kids'll leave me in the dust if i'm not careful" I feel he was comfortably above his brother, by a lot even. I think the comment is more about their potential and quick adaption. The spar with Vegeta shouldn't say anything seeing as Vegeta is way above the kids. I would say Trunks and Goten as ssj are like Yardrat Goku level at best (That is pre HTC for them). However in Super they are far different. I would also add her reaction is maybe more shock due to their age.

I rewatched the fight. It took him three shots to beat them and they defused after. They didn't last five minutes. After two minutes of attacking Vegeta the boys are met with a counter attack and are knocked to the ground. I also could see that not being the full extent of his power but I don't know. I would say if you low ball their bases in that arc or the last, they are at least SSJ Vegito level

There's absolutely no way a so so blast from a SS Yadart Goku fighter will cause that reaction out of 18. She would also have no reason to resort to disqualifying them if she was stronger.

Watch it again. When Kaio and Goku sense Gotenks we see more of the fight and he is blocking Commeson Vegeta's punches. After that we see him hitting Gotenks at least 10 times and then they defuse.

Yardrat Goku is a low ball, but fair.

They defuse after the Kaio scene

[ZombieVito]

Yardrat Goku is a low ball, but fair.

They defuse after the Kaio scene

After getting hit like 10 times and before that getting hit while blocking repeatedly for a long time. There's no way Gotenks can endure that much if he was dozens of times weaker.

[Mad Swami]

Yardrat Goku is a low ball, but fair.

They defuse after the Kaio scene

After getting hit like 10 times and before that getting hit while blocking repeatedly for a long time. There's no way Gotenks can endure that much if he was dozens of times weaker.

Yes, but he is absolutely playing with him. It's vague how strong their bases could be, however due to SSJ Goku performing better than SSG in the fight against Beerus and everything else.

[ZombieVito]

Yes, but he is absolutely playing with him. It's vague how strong their bases could be, however due to SSJ Goku performing better than SSG in the fight against Beerus and everything else.

Citation needed.

[Mad Swami]

Yes, but he is absolutely playing with him. It's vague how strong their bases could be, however due to SSJ Goku performing better than SSG in the fight against Beerus and everything else.

Citation needed.

Not really, he could tank anything Gotenks threw at him. Gotenks was sure of all of his attacks, you can just extrapolate that he was barley trying.

[TobyS]

Strong disagree with the last two, but the others seem fair.

CG Piccolo woukd be lucky to beat one SS kid. 2 at the same time is a lost cause. Maybe Boo arc Piccolo can manage.

Freeza and Base Goku in the RoF arc aren't that powerful. A stronger opponent (base Commeson Vegeta) failed to kill or defuse Gotenks for 5 minutes.

Bootenks also has magic, regeneration and absorption.

The kids in SSJ struggle with 18, and she's probably around Piccolo's Cell saga level imo

They were god level. Commeson Vegeta is never stated to empower Vegeta, is it? I don't think it is

Kamiccolo is about equal to 17 who's stronger then 18 by a chunk sizeable enough to mention.

Piccolo then trains for two years in the RoSaT and 10 days out of it before the Cell games.

He doesn't quite hold his own against a Jr like Vegeta and Trunks do. So we kinda know how strong he is.

The trouble is we don't really get a way of scaling the kids except that one dumb daiz line Goten=Gohan and implicitly Trunks=Gohan.

They could be as strong as Namek SS (possibly based on the abo and cado fight which furthermore took place post rosat, but iirc also says they've been slacking) they could be android level, Cell games Vegeta level or more. We don't really know. Their later relavence comes from stacking fusion on top of ss and with some modest rosat gains being exponentially useful under fusions huge multiplier

Regardless Piccolo might be able to take both based on skill in the buu saga, maybe even one at the cell games, but perhaps not both at the cell games.

Frankly as a fan base we are running out of match ups which have enough evidence and data.

[TobyS]

Android 18 kicked the crap out of them when they were in base but was impressed by the power of their SSJ. Nothing indicates they were stronger than her individually let alone, together.

Gotenks only lasted for as long as he did because Vegeta never did anything. Remember, Goku absorbed the God form and as did Vegeta. That might have been retconed but in RoF it wasn't

The kids are way stronger than her. They managed to spar with Gohan and Vegeta as super saiyans and are you really going to ignore her terrified face at a blast that Trunks didn't even put all his power into it?



The kids also fight multiple Cell Juniors in the manga and managed to hold on somewhat.

You might want to watch the fight again. Commeson Vegeta did attack and Gotenks didn't defuse or died instantly. He endured the full 5 minutes.

That's not a terrified face by any stretch that's “woah I was not expecting that” face if I've ever seen one. That's like the same face you have when you see footage of make Tyson air boxing as a kid, it's like shit that's incredible for a kid woah, but it's not frightening... Compare her reaction to Satan even though she's the one it was aimed at.

She splits them because it's by far the easiest option and she's in it for the money.

Sparring with someone doesn't mean anything sparring is not where you go all out, it's not life and death.

The manga cell jr fight has Goten getting dropped like a ***** and then the fight immediately ending iirc. Regardless 17 doesn't kill human level Poachers just sends them fleeing and the jrs can probably sense ki so it doesn't rule out either interpretation of their power level.

[Mad Swami]

Trunks and Goten and Super are a bit of a different story. Goten fights Gohan but due to Gohan's thought "These kids'll leave me in the dust if i'm not careful" I feel he was comfortably above his brother, by a lot even. I think the comment is more about their potential and quick adaption. The spar with Vegeta shouldn't say anything seeing as Vegeta is way above the kids. I would say Trunks and Goten as ssj are like Yardrat Goku level at best (That is pre HTC for them). However in Super they are far different. I would also add her reaction is maybe more shock due to their age.

I rewatched the fight. It took him three shots to beat them and they defused after. They didn't last five minutes. After two minutes of attacking Vegeta the boys are met with a counter attack and are knocked to the ground. I also could see that not being the full extent of his power but I don't know. I would say if you low ball their bases in that arc or the last, they are at least SSJ Vegito level

There's absolutely no way a so so blast from a SS Yadart Goku fighter will cause that reaction out of 18. She would also have no reason to resort to disqualifying them if she was stronger.

Watch it again. When Kaio and Goku sense Gotenks we see more of the fight and he is blocking Commeson Vegeta's punches. After that we see him hitting Gotenks at least 10 times and then they defuse.

Yardrat Goku is a super low ball, but fair.

They defuse after the Kaio scene

I should say honestly I think Goten and Trunks are weaker than Kamicolo Cell saga, but not by much honestly. I guess I should better ask, Trunks SSJ vs Kamicolo. The kids imo are around 300m+

[Mad Swami]

Android 18 kicked the crap out of them when they were in base but was impressed by the power of their SSJ. Nothing indicates they were stronger than her individually let alone, together.

Gotenks only lasted for as long as he did because Vegeta never did anything. Remember, Goku absorbed the God form and as did Vegeta. That might have been retconed but in RoF it wasn't

The kids are way stronger than her. They managed to spar with Gohan and Vegeta as super saiyans and are you really going to ignore her terrified face at a blast that Trunks didn't even put all his power into it?



The kids also fight multiple Cell Juniors in the manga and managed to hold on somewhat.

You might want to watch the fight again. Commeson Vegeta did attack and Gotenks didn't defuse or died instantly. He endured the full 5 minutes.

That's not a terrified face by any stretch that's “woah I was not expecting that” face if I've ever seen one. That's like the same face you have when you see footage of make Tyson air boxing as a kid, it's like shit that's incredible for a kid woah, but it's not frightening... Compare her reaction to Satan even though she's the one it was aimed at.

She splits them because it's by far the easiest option and she's in it for the money.

Sparring with someone doesn't mean anything sparring is not where you go all out, it's not life and death.

The manga cell jr fight has Goten getting dropped like a ***** and then the fight immediately ending iirc. Regardless 17 doesn't kill human level Poachers just sends them fleeing and the jrs can probably sense ki so it doesn't rule out either interpretation of their power level.

Agreed. I will say though, the kids aren't too far behind honestly. I shouldn't have made it the two of them vs Piccolo because I think they are all relative. So how about Kamicolo(Cell saga) and A18 Buu saga vs the two SSJ kids