New "Remastered Box Set" Information

[Soluzar]

But this is marketed towards DBZ fans, those that already know DBZ is supposed to be full frame, and who are going to realize something is missing in the picture. Has Funimation not realized that maybe the extra footage on the side just wasn't necessary to begin with? If it were, I'm sure it would have been on the Dragon Box.

Not necessary? I disagree entirely, I'm afraid. I can't see any reason why they can't release an unaltered full-frame version with all the original footage. The image I posted is what it should look like, except without the missing corners, and the stretching.

[tarsonis]

Not necessary? I disagree entirely, I'm afraid. I can't see any reason why they can't release an unaltered full-frame version with all the original footage. The image I posted is what it should look like, except without the missing corners, and the stretching.

Ok, necessary might have been a poor choice of words. I just mean that if we didn't have the side before, and did have the top and bottom, it would be best for it to remain that way. Fans will end up missing part of the picture that they're used to seeing.

But I agree completely about releasing it full-frame, with all the picture.

[Soluzar]

Not necessary? I disagree entirely, I'm afraid. I can't see any reason why they can't release an unaltered full-frame version with all the original footage. The image I posted is what it should look like, except without the missing corners, and the stretching.

Ok, necessary might have been a poor choice of words. I just mean that if we didn't have the side before, and did have the top and bottom, it would be best for it to remain that way. Fans will end up missing part of the picture that they're used to seeing.

Yeah, it's true that the version we had before looked better in terms of visible footage. It's a shame, because the actual quality of this version looks very nice indeed... aside from the cropping. The ideal would have been to see something more like this. Allowing for my less than perfect skills of course.

[DBW]

The image I posted is what it should look like, except without the missing corners, and the stretching.

The image you posted is off ratio, it can't be done. Dragon Box captured the most image possible within the 4:3 aspect ratio.

So why does FUNi have extra information on the sides?
Because the majority of the time the cel is cut short at the bottom of the screen, not on the left or right. If the Dragon Box masters showed the side image that FUNimation is showing in a 4:3 aspect ratio, you'd most likely see the bottom of the animation cel. Here's some images provided by Toei / Pony Canyon explaining their re-framing process.

Here's a frame showing the full image from the 16mm film, at a 4:3 ratio. Notice the visible bottom of the cel. (The dotted lines represent the original TV masters).


And here's the corrected image for the Dragon Box release. Notice that they zoomed in right to the bottom edge of the cel, capturing as much image as possible within the 4:3 ratio. (The dotted line showing how much image was salvaged).

Is there more to the left and right of this shot? Yes, of course, but it's not feasable to show that extra bit on the sides within the 4:3 ratio.

I'll also point out that the image FUNimation decided to show us conveniently has Gohan completely out of frame. If you're looking at this particular shot, then yeah, it looks like we're missing a lot of Gohan's face. Unfortunately, the reality is that 99% of the time the only thing FUNi will be gaining on the edge is background and some other worthless cel paint (maybe a bit more of an arm). * knock-knock* Hey FUNi, the focus is generally framed to the center of the image, not the fucking far right...

FUNimation's world...


Reality...
http://www.imagedump.com/index.cgi?pick=get&tp=471603

[Soluzar]

The image I posted is what it should look like, except without the missing corners, and the stretching.

The image you posted is off ratio, it can't be done. Dragon Box captured the most image possible within the 4:3 aspect ratio.

Yeah... I admit that, but we're talking the fantasy release, right? ^_^

I'm no expert, but I dare say it could potentially be done with the aid of the dreaded black bars, and I'd rather have more footage avaiable than an incomplete picture that fills the whole screen.

Besides... isn't it only off-ratio because the material I'm working from is off-ratio? I had to screw around with resizing it a little. I don't pretend it's exactly right, it's just an approximation I made for fun. If that same image were produced from the original masters, with nothing cropped out, what aspect ratio would it be? Is there any way to tell? I honestly have no idea, but I bet someone does.

Your last image is not showing up for me, by the way. I get an anti-hotlinking image.

[DBW]

If that same image were produced from the original masters, with nothing cropped out, what aspect ratio would it be? Is there any way to tell? I honestly have no idea, but I bet someone does.

I don't know what ratio that would be (you'd have to measure it out). It might even be 4:3, but only because it's been warped into that shape. If the Dragon Box image (which is true 4:3) doesn't have the extra information on the sides, then you can't just tack it on, fill in the corners and say it's good to go. If you expand the horizontal ratio, then the vertical ratio must also expand accordingly. And I'm willing to bet that if we somehow could expand the vertical ratio, we'd probably see something similar to the first image I posted above (where you could see the bottom of the cel). There would likely be cel issues either with the bottom of Gohan's arm, or the top of his hair.

Your last image is not showing up for me, by the way. I get an anti-hotlinking image.

Sorry, fixed it (I just ripped it from earlier in this thread anyways).

[Soluzar]

If that same image were produced from the original masters, with nothing cropped out, what aspect ratio would it be? Is there any way to tell? I honestly have no idea, but I bet someone does.

I don't know what ratio that would be (you'd have to measure it out). It might even be 4:3, but only because it's been warped into that shape. If the Dragon Box image (which is true 4:3) doesn't have the extra information on the sides, then you can't just tack it on, fill in the corners and say it's good to go.

I know what you're saying. I only produced that image as wishful thinking, anyway. I understand that it's just not possible to show that much of the image on a 4:3 television screen, without some kind of problem.

Would it be possible to show more if they were willing to display a visible hard matte around the borders of the picture? I know that FUNi probably wouldn't ever do that, and nor would most companies, but is it possible?

[DBW]

Would it be possible to show more if they were willing to display a visible hard matte around the borders of the picture? I know that FUNi probably wouldn't ever do that, and nor would most companies, but is it possible?

Oh, ok...I see what you're saying now (I was wondering what you meant by "black bars"). You're talking about making a custom ratio just for DBZ. Yeah, I suppose anything's possible. Not very practical, but possible... kind of begs the question of how much is too much...

[Soluzar]

Oh, ok...I see what you're saying now (I was wondering what you meant by "black bars"). You're talking about making a custom ratio just for DBZ. Yeah, I suppose anything's possible. Not very practical, but possible... kind of begs the question of how much is too much...

Well... I suppose it is too much, but this is one of that double-handful of series that made anime special for me, when I had first discovered it. So I get sentimental about it.

[Kula]

...However, I'm still going to buy this....

This is exactly what Funimation wants to hear. "We're all pissed but what the Hell, we'll buy it anyway." If everyone decided they weren't going to put up with this bollocks and not buy it, Funimation would keep the 4:3 ratio for sure.

Besides, don't most DVD players have an option to expand a 4:3 image for a widescreen tv and cut the top and bottom off? If they kept it at 4:3, we would all be happy and those who wanted widescreen could have it. Also, if you don't have a widescreen TV, you'd be stuck with black bars on the top and bottom.

Edit: I can only hope now that the cropping is selective for each scene to make sure that character's heads etc. don't get cut off. If it turns out that this cropping is something imposed by Toei, I sure as Hell wont be buying any of their Japanese releases.

[ect5150]

there's definitely going to be moments we're reminded of what's missing, such as during that four-way closing shot of Vegeta, Gohan, Kuririn and Goku towards the end of the Saiyan saga-- you know the one I mean.

This one?



and seeing it letterboxed / cropped :



Granted, it'll be a little wider and all, but still. If shots like this suck-ass, I"ll just buy dragon-box DVDs one a time for a while. I'll still probably get this release, because you can buy it for so cheap (like $20.64 at one web site). For that price, the deal is too good to at least check out).

[desirecampbell]

...However, I'm still going to buy this....

This is exactly what Funimation wants to hear. "We're all pissed but what the Hell, we'll buy it anyway." If everyone decided they weren't going to put up with this bollocks and not buy it, Funimation would keep the 4:3 ratio for sure.

Well, it's not that "I'd buy it anyway" it's "I've already pre-ordered the damn thing, and might as well check it out".

But if it sucks - I'll hold out, again for the next set.

[ect5150]

But if it sucks - I'll hold out, again for the next set.

But do you hold out for the 4:3 BluRay / HD-DVD release?

[desirecampbell]

But if it sucks - I'll hold out, again for the next set.

But do you hold out for the 4:3 BluRay / HD-DVD release?

I might have to hold out for Blu-Ray to get 4:3 :sadface:

[ect5150]

I might have to hold out for Blu-Ray to get 4:3 :sadface:

I'm starting to think I should just start saving for the R2 re-release of the dragonbox sets in Japan in BluRay or HD-DVD. I'm betting it'll be a reality at somepoint.

[Li'l Lemmy]

This is exactly what Funimation wants to hear. "We're all pissed but what the Hell, we'll buy it anyway." If everyone decided they weren't going to put up with this bollocks and not buy it, Funimation would keep the 4:3 ratio for sure.

Don't think me too much of a fool. I know perfectly well that I'm playing right into their hands.

But realistically, what are the chances that FUNimation will do a complete overhaul of something they're almost finished with just because a few irate message board goers say that they aren't going to buy it? Remember, we're a very specific community, with very specific standards. We're not where the buck stops. For all we know, FUNi might be getting equally positive feedback from "regular" fans on the other side of the fence, who could care less about ratios or birates or whatever.

I do think the company cares and wants to do right by the fans in general. But I don't think that us "hardcore" types are the end of the line for them. If FUNimation were actually using our reactions to decide what they should do next, I'd be right there with you saying "change this, change that, because otherwise I don't want it". I would complain just as loudly as anyone here. But the fact is that they've already done it, without asking. It's already happened, and quite obviously they think we should be happy as pigs in shit. And unfortunately for us, some fans are.

With the Ultimate Uncuts, it was different. FUNimation discovered a way to make an even bigger profit with something better-- though how much of it was due to fan reaction, I couldn't say-- and now they're convinced that we're profiting from it, too. (And aside from the widescreen issue, we are.) There was a reason to stop and reassess the situation; there was a sudden, glaring opportunity that would have been downright foolish for them to ignore, and so here we are.

As much as I believe that our distaste should be just as large a reason, that they should heed our word and backtrack to address this issue, there's just no profit in it this time. You heard what they said: That this has been a very intense project, that they've poured considerable money and resources into making it happen. They're already knee-deep. If they were to suddenly turn around this far into the game, they'd lose even more money trying to fix things-- probably more than they would thanks to fans who choose not to buy this release, and in the end just how large a margin will that be anyway? Probably the majority of us who say we're unhappy about the widescreen decision are going to crack in the end and buy these sets all the same, and I'll bet as negative as our general reaction has been that they're banking on that . . . because what the hell? It costs less money to wait and see then it does to go back and start over. At the very worst, they can simply make sure that the next set isn't widescreen.

I dunno. I'm just . . . tired of fighting, I guess. Particularly when I don't see a way we can win.

This one?

Yeah, that's the one. It's shots like that that'll be a stark reminder of what we're missing, and I can't help but wonder what the remastering editors are thinking when they see Vegeta's eyes get cut out like that.

Well, it's not that "I'd buy it anyway" it's "I've already pre-ordered the damn thing, and might as well check it out".

Pretty much the same story with me. I preordered this sucker way back in July-- though technically, I only placed an order just this week, since I switched my preorder from one place to another.

[DaemonCorps]

At the very worst, they can simply make sure that the next set isn't widescreen.

I dunno. I'm just . . . tired of fighting, I guess. Particularly when I don't see a way we can win.

Yeah, that's pretty much the sad truth. FUNi just dropped the ball on this whole screen format issue, and the only people who would truly care the most about it is well... us. And really, the only alternatives are buying the DragonBox singles (which cost, like an arm and your mom for one disc) or get FUNi's older releases that are somewhat grainy and zoomed oh so insignificantly.

But just to vent, I really don't get why FUNi would take such a route except for the excuse that widescreen=kool. That kind of thing has leaked into shows everywhere nowadays (even the ones that don't have a choice to be aired on a HD version of the channel). ... Also, DBZ has got so many of those multi-frame shots that I wonder how FUNi'll deal with that...

So, the awaited comparison shot has come out and... I'm still smelling something fishy. Aside from the point that DBW made a good point of with the whole "okay, it's not like the show suddenly is centered on the right side" thing, I think that whole "new footage" on the sides are fishy as hell.

(If you're gonna skip my post because it's too long, at least read the following paragraph.)
First off, people left and right are saying that the DragonBox has a bunch of stuff cropped off now and that FUNi's got what they left out (of course, the DragonBox has also got what FUNi is leaving out, but that's not the point right now). For those who draw DBZ, I'm sure you are all thinking that Gohan's eye seems disgustingly (for lack of a better word) off-- like it's too big or something. My theory is that since FUNi's tossing all of this money to have cleaned up footage, they figured they'd do what they thougt was right and widescreened the dang thing, since everyone seemed to be bitching about how their footage is slightly zoomed in. So what do they do? They toss in even more money to have some company draw in the missing sides so the picture won't be stretched.

... I'm just saying, that eye looks so out of place. I mean, even triangle crap gets eye proportions right...

EDIT: Conlusion: We're not getting the missing footage that's from the original Toei masters; we're getting added on footage from and by FUNi.

[Li'l Lemmy]

WOAH, wait a minute! Daemon, are you saying what I think you're saying? Because it sounds like you're indicating that FUNimation is drawing in the extra footage frame-by-frame.

That's a very bold statement. Now I know FUNi has on occasion gone to considerable lengths to pull the wool over our eyes, but . . . that just seems too "out there," even for them. To do something like that would be a massive undertaking that I'm sure could never be effectively portrayed as part of the original animation-- not in our eyes, anyway-- no matter how hard they tried. I don't think they would bother.

Sure, Gohan's eye looks a little off. I can see where your suspicion would come from. But that's certainly not the first time we've seen something out-of-proportion in DBZ!

[BrollysKin]

I still want more information, maybe they will give us a more indepth look on why they made this mess.

[desirecampbell]

I swear to god - if this boxset is as bad as it's starting to sound I will shit in a box and mail it to Funi. Cutting out the well drawn top and bottom and giving us redrawn sides? No, no, no. That's shitbox-worthy.