Accuracy of the Dragonbox colors?

TheGreatness25 · Post by **TheGreatness25** » Tue Mar 17, 2009 10:39 am

Heh. Yeah, that's what I've been saying for a while now. Because to me, any animation opener from Japanese DBZ games, or seeing any online Japanese footage before it even came out in the US, I would always see the colors to resemble the ones that I saw on American TV. But then when the Dragon Box pictures were whipped out, I was like, "Why are they so dark and why is their skin pink?" Like literally pink. It looks like the tint got turned up while brightness and contrast got turned down. I could match that on my TV with a bit of tinkering and I actually did. I have that saved as one of the presets. But now that it's actually brought up, I do have to agree. Don't forget, the Dragon Boxes were also edited. And it may be the way the colors were first originally meant to be, but I have no attachment to that. The footage still looks amazing though. And if you have any problems with the colors, you can do the opposite, turn the brightness/contrast up and tint down or something. It's not a big deal. The Dragon Boxes are still amazing.

bkev · Post by **bkev** » Tue Mar 17, 2009 11:19 am

Anyone willing to screencap the dragonbox to compare to Kei's latest screens?

SSj_Rambo · Post by **SSj_Rambo** » Tue Mar 17, 2009 11:47 am

@ kei17: What did you use to record those episodes from Animax? The quality looks too good for VHS. By the way, thanks for providing us with all of these different sources!

MajinVejitaXV · Post by **MajinVejitaXV** » Tue Mar 17, 2009 6:52 pm

bkev wrote:Anyone willing to screencap the dragonbox to compare to Kei's latest screens?

Sure thing.

kei17 wrote:Anyway, I just wanted to say that DBOXes' colours are neither "originally meant to be" nor "how they were in the original airing", but are "unedited deteriorated films' colours" and just "Dragon Box Colours". Then, I can hardly accept them as a Japanese DB fan. We have never seen any DB-related footage in these colours on Japanese TV.

Not to contest you too hotly, but by your own admission you weren't alive when the series was originally airing (or rather, you said you were born during the Saiyajin arc, if memory serves). For all you or I know, the original airings in 1986-1989 of the episodes we've posted had the colors as depicted in the DragonBox screens. Not to mention, you've shown no proof of the DragonBox film masters having deteriorated (though I still need to find the proof that they were in cold storage in return).

In any case, I'm putting together a fairly compelling argument. I might not have it up tonight, but I think I've got a decent grasp on what's going on. In the meantime, feel free to continue.

-Corey

bkev · Post by **bkev** » Tue Mar 17, 2009 7:01 pm

The "Hokuto no Ken" example works well here. http://db.schuby.org/daizex/viewtopic.p ... 7&start=49 ; this WAS remastered and cleaned, but TOEi went back later and touched it up again with the slogan "the colours originally meant to be". The second set of shots there, with the white background behind a character; note how it's bright in shot two, while in shot one it's reddish. Is there something similar to that in Dragonball? I was thinking the Ginyu Force scene, BUT I'd have to rewatch it myself...
edit: youtube isn't exactly the bets source, but there's no difference like in the HnK shot unless you count the Orange Brick - which, in terms of "original colors", definitely doesn't count.

double edit- hmm, the animax footage is ever-so-slightly less zoomed in...

Mosaic · Post by **Mosaic** » Tue Mar 17, 2009 7:28 pm

Aren't all of Toei's DVD sets remastered so the series look as good as the when they (first) aired? And isn't natural that the film colors, and cel colors don't match up? Doesn't this have something to do with the actual animating process?

MajinVejitaXV · Post by **MajinVejitaXV** » Tue Mar 17, 2009 7:53 pm

Mosaic wrote:Aren't all of Toei's DVD sets remastered so the series look as good as the when they (first) aired? And isn't natural that the film colors, and cel colors don't match up? Doesn't this have something to do with the actual animating process?

That's correct. Due to the overlaying of numerous cels to create a full frame of animation, the colors won't match up exactly to the cels. I'm actually reading about the whole process and was going to post about it later, but I have an idea that I'm going to work on...

As for Hokuto no Ken, the site itself mentions this if I'm reading it correctly. It states that the aim of the set was to change the colors to match what was originally intended. Note it doesn't say they're restoring the image to the original film color (unless I'm missing something), just restoring it to how it 'should have been'. That somewhat negates the claim of the film for DragonBall being degraded, if we're using Hokuto no Ken's latest remaster as a comparison.

-Corey

bkev · Post by **bkev** » Tue Mar 17, 2009 7:55 pm

Well... I may be misquoting Kei, to be fair, as I don't speak a WORD of Japanese. >_>. Just for clarification.

MajinVejitaXV · Post by **MajinVejitaXV** » Tue Mar 17, 2009 7:57 pm

bkev wrote:Well... I may be misquoting Kei, to be fair, as I don't speak a WORD of Japanese. >_>.

You actually quoted him correctly, I'm simply stating that what he wrote and what the site for the Hokuto no Ken remaster say conflict a bit.

And I just noticed, the pics kei17 posted from Animax appear to have been DVNR'd, which makes me question the color fidelity a little (are they DivX/XviD/etc encodes? If whoever encoded them did any noise reduction, they might have also played with the colors, not to mention compression can mess with fidelity to begin with...)

-Corey

bkev · Post by **bkev** » Tue Mar 17, 2009 8:31 pm

Oh, one more thing... please do post a bit from the motion comic kei! Pick a scene that is CLEARLY green in the anime, if possible (the sunset/rise thing near the end?)

DBW · Post by **DBW** » Tue Mar 17, 2009 8:41 pm

MajinVejitaXV wrote:And I just noticed, the pics kei17 posted from Animax appear to have been DVNR'd, which makes me question the color fidelity a little (are they DivX/XviD/etc encodes? If whoever encoded them did any noise reduction, they might have also played with the colors, not to mention compression can mess with fidelity to begin with...)

-Corey

Yeah, just start with the blacks (Goku's hair for example) and draw your eyes outward from there. The filtering is pretty obvious.

I also like how the claim is being made that Dragon Box has degraded colors, yet when you compare the Piccolo shots it seems to be just the opposite. That Animax broadcast is clearly tampered with.

vs Dragon Box

And just a couple other things to get out of the way (some mentioned earlier in the thread). Goku's suit has a slightly more red tint in these earlier episodes (particularly when he has the yellow "kame" symbol), and becomes more orange later on. The series is NOT 100% consistent in this regard.

Also, in the Vegeta fight, the sky is initially blue, but becomes green to signify dusk. Look at the horizon shots to see why this makes sense. It is NOT an error.

kei17 · Post by **kei17** » Tue Mar 17, 2009 11:13 pm

MajinVejitaXV wrote:Not to contest you too hotly, but by your own admission you weren't alive when the series was originally airing (or rather, you said you were born during the Saiyajin arc, if memory serves).

Yes, I didn't watch (I really wish if I could have!) the original airing of Dragon Ball, but on my cousin's VHS many years ago. My older brother still remembers how they were in the original airing.

MajinVejitaXV wrote:Note it doesn't say they're restoring the image to the original film color (unless I'm missing something), just restoring it to how it 'should have been'.

The site says 「現存するマスターは全体的に赤味を帯びたものになっていましたが」, which means "Though the existing master films have got reddish,".

MajinVejitaXV wrote:And I just noticed, the pics kei17 posted from Animax appear to have been DVNR'd, which makes me question the color fidelity a little (are they DivX/XviD/etc encodes? If whoever encoded them did any noise reduction, they might have also played with the colors, not to mention compression can mess with fidelity to begin with...)

Since I didn't record DB when I was able to watch Animax, they are from my old CD-R burned by my youthful mistake.. Yeah, I mean, I downloaded that episode many years ago. It's raw and has pretty accurate colour if my memory's accurate, but at least, they're not completely accurate. However, you still can see "how they look like" on these images. not enough as an evidence, though.

DBW wrote:Yeah, just start with the blacks (Goku's hair for example) and draw your eyes outward from there. The filtering is pretty obvious.

On Animax, they originally look like so. They lack contrast.

DBW wrote:I also like how the claim is being made that Dragon Box has degraded colors, yet when you compare the Piccolo shots it seems to be just the opposite. That Animax broadcast is clearly tampered with.

See the first page of this topic. Piccolo was always coloured in yellowish green. As I mentioned before, films get reddish and lose yellow when they age. So that Piccolo has lost his yellow and got fresh green.

DBW wrote:And just a couple other things to get out of the way (some mentioned earlier in the thread). Goku's suit has a slightly more red tint in these earlier episodes (particularly when he has the yellow "kame" symbol), and becomes more orange later on. The series is NOT 100% consistent in this regard.

Yeah in these episodes, Goku has red Dougi instead of orage, but it's not in that strong red, and Goku's skin is not pink at all.

DBW wrote:Also, in the Vegeta fight, the sky is initially blue, but becomes green to signify dusk. Look at the horizon shots to see why this makes sense. It is NOT an error.

*I'm arguing the sky on DBOX is already green in your first shot. In addition, the sky stays blue until the end of the fight on my VHS.

*Edited

kei17 · Post by **kei17** » Tue Mar 17, 2009 11:19 pm

DAICON IV Opening

Cels from the official site and shots from my laserdisc wich shows the unedited aged master film

As you can see, it lost yellow, the skin got pink, and the sky/water turned green.
Don't you think it's just like how DBOXes look like?

bkev · Post by **bkev** » Tue Mar 17, 2009 11:46 pm

Obviously not to that extent... and wait, I thought that the argument was that the sky was blue and stayed blue. Now I'M confused. ; _ ;

DBW · Post by **DBW** » Wed Mar 18, 2009 2:00 am

kei17 wrote:See the first page of this topic. Piccolo was always coloured in yellowish green. As I mentioned before, films get reddish and lose yellow when they age. So that Piccolo has lost his yellow and got fresh green.

...

Yeah in these episodes, Goku has red Dougi instead of orage, but it's not in that strong red, and Goku's skin is not pink at all.

Ok, I can see where you're coming from. Everything you're saying is very possible, especially if you're using animation cels as your reference points. I don't even know if this is a right-or-wrong situation, though. I believe that the original film is the best reference point to use, although I can understand your disagreement. I guess all I can suggest to you is to keep watching Animax and look forward to DB Kai!

Your Daicon IV comparison is way off base, however.

PS - I officially hate you for owning the Daicon IV LD...I fucking want it!

YouTube · Post by **Hujio** » Wed Mar 18, 2009 2:28 am

Sorry guys, this is for the most part totally off topic...

@DBW: Buddy, check your PM's or your e-mail, and shoot me a message sometime.

@MajinVejitaXV: I'll get back to your PM in the morning... sorry.

@Everyone: Your technical skills for this sort of stuff is way over my head, but I've enjoyed following along. Keep it up!

That is all. You may continue.

biohazard · Post by **biohazard** » Wed Mar 18, 2009 3:41 am

I don't understand it. If the film master loses yellow... why in the world the sky became green?? blue+yellow=green

Besides, those cells from the 23th tenkaichi budokai looked aged and usaturated compared with other cells. They look as if they were exposed to the sun for a time.

And I wouldn't trust in the colours of those cells: some black lines have turn into brown/orange with the ages. And the colours of those images depends of the scanner in which those cells were scanned. Every scanner have different colour profiles (I'm assuming they were scanned).

So, The only way we have to know which was the true colour is take a time machine and go where those cells where produced and look at the ink used to paint goku's gi, piccolo's skin and goku vs vegeta battle sky. Don't you think?

Yi Xing Long · Post by **Yi Xing Long** » Wed Mar 18, 2009 3:51 am

It is my understanding that, depending on the type of film used, it will shift toward green (supposedly more common) or magenta as it ages if not cared for properly. On another note, VHS most definitely does deteriorate.

DBW · Post by **DBW** » Wed Mar 18, 2009 8:18 am

biohazard wrote:So, The only way we have to know which was the true colour is take a time machine and go where those cells where produced and look at the ink used to paint goku's gi, piccolo's skin and goku vs vegeta battle sky. Don't you think?

Precisely, which is why the argument is more or less moot. However, kei17 has just as much a right to claim that the film has degraded (as it most likely has, at least to some degree). He believes the original cels, which are the only source to rival the actual film prints IMO, is the more accurate representation of how the series should look. For the sake of overall consistency, I would always look to the film instead. As long as he's comparing to a piece of work within the same range of reasoning, such as the animation cels, I can accept the argument and simply agree to disagree. However, regarding the VHS tapes or whatever, his argument is lost. Fair?

TheMajinRedComet · Post by **TheMajinRedComet** » Wed Mar 18, 2009 7:11 pm

Is it wrong to think that the broadcast version looks better? Those Dragonbox images of Piccolo seem way too bright, but maybe I am just more accustomed to the darker green Piccolo from that part of the series.

Kanzenshuu

Accuracy of the Dragonbox colors?

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