Gods with "sama"-honorific treated as full names in Viz?

[Turtle Marked Stone]

*Snip*

I guess when it boils down it really does just come down to opinion. I personally wouldn't have minded "wave motion fist" myself. It doesn't sound any more or less awkward then Hadoken to me. The big thing is trying to determine what the majority would prefer but I don't know if there's a very easy way to figure that out (granted, as you said, at this point it has become a pretty common practice to leave Japanese attack names, Japanese so at the very least that option has familiarity in English translations.) You raise good points but there's not much I can say in response other then "well...not really to me."

Edit:

*snip*

Very, very good points. I guess there is a larger disconnect in the English language when it comes to translation that I anticipated.

[Herms]

Another thing to mention is that there are quite a few techniques in DB (and other shonen series) that have English names to begin with. Things like Final Flash, Big Bang, Power Ball, Super Ghost Kamikaze Attack (well OK, "Kamikaze" isn't English but the rest is), etc. In fact, Toriyama says in Daizenshuu 4 that he gave Vegeta English attack names because he felt it suited him, in contrast to Piccolo who he thought was better suited by kanji attack names. So translating out the Japanese attack names so that all the attacks are named in English erases this intentional distinction.

[JulieYBM]

Yeah, I agree with Herms again (big surprise). My personal methodology nowadays is to leave 'chô' in attack name untranslated because the English words 'ultra' and 'super' are used in other contexts (Super Saiyan, Chô Ultra Genki-dama, etc.) These are all elements of martial arts, too, so I don't really feel bad about it.

Something that Viz does with One Piece that irrates me is that they translate the martial art-sy stuff instead of leaving the translations as footnotes. The Rokushiki (Six Forms) arts just do not flow well when translated ('Finger Gun' instead of 'Shigan/'Shi-gun'; 'Iron Body' instead of 'Tekkai'). I'm hoping FUNimation's subtitles and dub won't do this, and with the lips flaps being what they are I have a little more hope for the dub. I know they also translate Zoro's sword technique techniques, which annoys me. Sanji's attacks are French and Robin's Spanish, but they to will sometimes meet with being translated. Franky mixes English (Strong Right, Weapons Left) and French (Coup de Vent), too. Hell, most of the Straw Hats don't even use Japanese in their attack names. Luffy, on the other hand, will use English and Japanese ('Gomu Gomu no Yari'/'Gum Gum Spear'). I'm a little more lenient when it comes to Luffy's attacks but where I allowed to I'd leave them untranslated ('Gomu Gomu no Pistol') because that's what it is.

Personally, I find it silly to try to pretend that the book the reader has in their hands is in fact an 'original English production'. A part of the fun is experiencing a form of entertainment as crafted by a person from another culture, not to mention it makes producing the English version a lot easier.


Running back over to the situation with '-sama', I admittedly haven't found my own personal namings. I'll tend to mix between 'God [of Earth]', 'Kami-sama', 'Lord God' or even 'God-sama'. Kaiô is also the same, basically ('Lord Kaiô', 'Kaiô-sama'). I see no reason to 'translate' Kaiô because it and Kaiôshin are both Dragon Ball exclusive races.

[Mountain]

I would personally leave any attack or character name(s) the same as the original. You can translate Kami to God, sure, but it doesn't change the fact that whenever I watch the series, I hear him being called "Kami". That's his name. It just wouldn't feel the same to me if they called him God in the dub. As for honorifics, I say keep them in! =)

When the Kamehameha is used, the characters say, "Ka-me-ha-me-ha!" How exactly would they fit "Turtle Wave!" into the mouth flaps, anyhow? Even if you manage to accomplish this feat, you are completely dropping the 'hame' portion of the name. It may not mean anything, but that's sort of the point in Japanese. The attack name is Kamehameha. In my opinion, it's already translated.

This brings me to Saiya-jin, which I used to only say. However, ever since Saiyan Blood, I have found myself using Saiyan more often. It really isn't a big deal, though; either is acceptable, as long as the pronunciation is correct.

(I don't mean to get off-topic with a few of these points, but it all seems relevant to me.)

[Herms]

So I started translating Kami out to "God" awhile back, and even convinced Hujio to make this the Kanzentai naming scheme. A big part of it was that I was translating stuff from the daizenshuu where they talk both about "God" the character and "god (of Earth)" the position, and leaving Kami untranslated led to problems. If I left it untranslated for the character, but translated it when it was referring to the position in general, it ended up enforcing the misconception that "Kami" was the character's actual name and not just a title. And there were more than a few points where it was unclear which sense of "kami" they were referring to, or even places where they seemed to be referring to both. I considered leaving it untranslated in all instances (using a lowercase "kami" for the position), and just having a note somewhere explaining that kami=god", but ultimately thought it'd be better to just translate it in all cases. My thought was that this would be the strongest way to cut against the misconception that (as Adamant phrases it) "there's a guardian of Earth, and his name is Kami". And, as Adamant has noted, the English adaptions of the series are pretty much unique in leaving "Kami" untranslated; most if not all others translate it into the native word for "God".

I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with leaving it untranslated. As Olivier Hague has pointed out, this is a character with the actual kanji for kami written right on his shirt, so you could argue that his name should be left as-is on those grounds. Not to mention that the other deities in DB have kanji-based names, some of which would be rather cumbersome to translate (Kaioshin), so you could say it makes sense to just treat all the gods as one category and leave their names as-is. Also, the alphabet spellings on the various bits of Japanese merchandise tend to leave "Kami-sama" untranslated, despite translating other words (Saiya-jin to "Saiyan", Koku-ou to "World King", etc). So there are points on both sides, but I think that with the Funi dub's (and to a much lessor extent Viz's) way of treating "Kami" as simply a name and getting rid of the idea of his godhood altogether, I prefer to translate it to emphasis this aspect of the original version.

[Mountain]

Well, you bring up some good points, Herms. Though, when Dende eventually becomes the guardian of the Earth, don't they refer to him as 'Kami' in the Japanese version(s) of the series and manga? It makes perfect sense to translate Kami to God in that case, but then Dende has a name. When we aren't referring to Kami as a god, what do we refer to him as? Does he, too, have some other name?

[JulieYBM]

Mato's subs use "I am a Kami-sama" or "Goku, you should becom the new Kami-sama" when referring to God as such. It's a little...odd...

[caejones]

Now that I think of it, is Dende ever referred to as Kami-sama? I mean, not have it mentioned that such is his position, but does anyone ever use the title to address him?

Honorifics in translation perplex me. I have an original story with Japanese characters, and have trouble deciding if honorifics should ever be used in dialog in English (for the benefit of an English-speaking audience; the characters would be speaking Japanese). Hmmf.

[Herms]

When we aren't referring to Kami as a god, what do we refer to him as? Does he, too, have some other name?

That's the annoying thing...he has a name, but he forgot it. There's that whole "I am neither Piccolo nor God, I am a Namekian who has forgotten his true name" speech from after the two merge. Sometimes you'll see fans say his original name was actually Piccolo, but that's incorrect, or at least it's never actually said in anything official. I don't know if there's anything to flat-out contradict the idea, but it would make the post-merging speech kinda pointless ("I am neither Piccolo nor God...I am Piccolo!"). So besides Kami(sama)/God, we're just stuck calling him the "child of Katatz", the "Nameless Namekian", or things like that.

Now that I think of it, is Dende ever referred to as Kami-sama? I mean, not have it mentioned that such is his position, but does anyone ever use the title to address him?

Yeah, I know that Trunks in particular calls him that a lot. It seems that in general, those who knew him before he became God of Earth just go on calling him Dende, while people who have only known him in his role of God, like Trunks, just call him "God".

[Adamant]

Now that I think of it, is Dende ever referred to as Kami-sama? I mean, not have it mentioned that such is his position, but does anyone ever use the title to address him?

It's done a couple times, but the characters are generally familiar enough with Dende to refer to him by name rather than title. I remember a line where Trunks (I think) tells Mr. Satan that this green guy he's not being overly respectful towards is God, though.

If you were best friends with the president, how often would you address him as "Mr. President" in private?

[Chibi Mystic Gohan]

God, I hate honourifics in translations. It's a translators job to translate things. In this case, it's English. Last I checked, "san" and "sama" aren't English words. Yes, they don't have direct English translations. But so what? Leaving them in untranslated is a cop out. Translators should find way translate them, based on the context. They're called "translators", aren't they? Part of their job to adapt certain language "quirks", into another language. Leaving in honourifics does the opposite of this (as do using macrons and circumflexes, but that's for another day).


And some of them don't even have to be translated if they're not that important to a character's relationship with another character. They can just be omitted completely. Is it really going to make much different whether it's "Daichi-chan" or just "Daichi"?


Sorry if I enter into "rant mode" here. It's just reading through this thread made me remember something I truly hate.

I think that's a pretty ridiculous stance. Come on, it all depends on context! Yeah, nii-san and Edward-kun obviously don't belong in an English translation of Fullmetal Alchemist, but what about, say, something like the PS2 RPG, Persona 3? You play as a Japanese high schooler. Half of the game is a school/dating sim. Honorifics tell you a lot about the relationships between Japanese people! "Yukkie" or something wouldn't be the same as "Yuka-tan" (I believe Junpei called her "Yuka-chin" in Japanese, but I digress). "Upperclassman Akihiko" or "Mr. Akihiko" just isn't the same as "Akihiko-sempai." Mr./Miss___ instead of [blank]-san is just downright awkward when it's supposed to be coming out of a teenager's mouth (see: The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya dub's "Miss Asahina").

Yeah, you obviously need translation notes in the manual (which Persona 3 had; don't remember if they specifically addressed the honorifics though), or, in the case of a manga/novel translation, you need notes somewhere in the book. But I got so much more out of Seven Sea's translation of the Boogiepop novel series (another series starring a bunch of Japanese high school kids) because they retained the Japanese honorifics in their translation. If every company followed their and Del Rey's lead, everyone would learn a little more about the Japanese culture. And then we wouldn't even need translation notes! People would know -kouhai just as well as we all know -san (entirely thanks to The Karate Kid, I suspect)!

(Incidentally, did you know that the term hikikomori was added to the Oxford Dictionary of English this year? Just like words such as anime ("cartoon") and manga ("comic books"), somebody thought this word was better left as-is and defined, instead of using an English equivalent such as "shut-in." Hey, just like the Japanese have English loan-words, we now have Japanese loan-words! Groovy!)

[Piccolo Daimaoh]

I think that's a pretty ridiculous stance.

What's so ridiculous about wanting an English translation to sound like it was originally written in said language?

Come on, it all depends on context!

Not really. It's all still translating Japanese to English.

Yeah, nii-san and Edward-kun obviously don't belong in an English translation of Fullmetal Alchemist, but what about, say, something like the PS2 RPG, Persona 3?

Same rules still apply. See above.

Honorifics tell you a lot about the relationships between Japanese people!!

I'm not saying that this statement is false. It's true, honourifics do tell you about characters' relationships. What I'm saying is, they can be expressed in other ways. Ways that don't involve not translating words.

Mr./Miss___ instead of [blank]-san is just downright awkward when it's supposed to be coming out of a teenager's mouth.

Really? This leads me to ask what you call/called your teachers by.

Yeah, you obviously need translation notes in the manual (which Persona 3 had; don't remember if they specifically addressed the honorifics though), or, in the case of a manga/novel translation, you need notes somewhere in the book.

When you have to read translator notes, it detracts from the enjoyment of the series. Especially in Anime, where you have to keep pausing the video.

[caejones]

Mr./Miss___ instead of [blank]-san is just downright awkward when it's supposed to be coming out of a teenager's mouth.

Really? This leads me to ask what you call/called your teachers by.
The context is a teenager calling another teenager "Miss [___]", which is just weird in English. It makes perfect sense for referring to teachers that way... but a fourteen year-old referring to a fifteen-year-old that way would be awkward.

[Rocketman]

Mr./Miss___ instead of [blank]-san is just downright awkward when it's supposed to be coming out of a teenager's mouth

So why use it, when English doesn't need such nonsense to show relationships between characters?

[JulieYBM]

I think that's a pretty ridiculous stance.

What's so ridiculous about wanting an English translation to sound like it was originally written in said language?

Because it wasn't. The material has certain quirks because it is not natively English. If anybody who decides to sit down and read a litterary work from somebody who is clearly Japanese going to be surprised to see some Japanese lingo tossed around? '-san' is already in the English lexicon. The human mind is bright enough to easily pick up on these things and accept them.

Seeing subtitles or even re-written dialogue in comics try to 'adapt' honorfics would just come off terribly, espicially if you start getting wordy with the 'adaptations'. Honorfics are short, simple, and to the point. Read them, understand them, and move along with your reading.

[SHINOBI-03]

Since the topic has switched to translations and honorifics in general, then I hope no one would mind me plugging a documentary about fan-subbing and what's wrong with it nowadays compared to the old fansubs or the official ones.

Part 1

Part 2

Part 3

Part 4

Part 5

[Dr. Casey]

Mr./Miss___ instead of [blank]-san is just downright awkward when it's supposed to be coming out of a teenager's mouth

So why use it, when English doesn't need such nonsense to show relationships between characters?

Wait, why are Japanese honorifics nonsense? Putting aside for a moment whether they belong in localizations, I think the Japanese honorific system itself is useful, interesting, and easy to understand.

As for me, translated attack names are pretty much always awkward and clunky, so just leave them in Japanese. I don't mind too much if honorifics are left out, but since I like honorifics I prefer to have them included, plus it's refreshingly honest somehow to have the product so unapologetically Japanese.

[TonyTheTiger]

I think that's a pretty ridiculous stance.

What's so ridiculous about wanting an English translation to sound like it was originally written in said language?

Because it wasn't. The material has certain quirks because it is not natively English. If anybody who decides to sit down and read a litterary work from somebody who is clearly Japanese going to be surprised to see some Japanese lingo tossed around? '-san' is already in the English lexicon. The human mind is bright enough to easily pick up on these things and accept them.

Seeing subtitles or even re-written dialogue in comics try to 'adapt' honorfics would just come off terribly, espicially if you start getting wordy with the 'adaptations'. Honorfics are short, simple, and to the point. Read them, understand them, and move along with your reading.

I don't think it's necessarily that simple. It can be, depending on the context and the content of the dialogue, but it doesn't always have to be. Honorifics are lucky enough to be common in our western culture so we can just handwave it on occasion. But there are a shit load of ways things can get messy and awkward, particularly when the honorifics aren't really there for an obvious reason. In a sense, keeping honorifics in an English translation (especially a dub) will emphasize it rather than keep the original Japanese intent of "it just is." It makes us "aware" of it while a Japanese listener would essentially hear it and forget it. Think of the English word "like." We...like...you know...talk this way once in a while. It doesn't come across as incredibly obvious when we hear it. Now if you were to translate it into Japanese and stick "like" or the Japanese equivalent in a seemingly random part of a sentence it now becomes really in your face to the audience. It draws attention to itself which was not the original intent.

It's hard to think up an example in English related to honorifics because we lack the same stages of respect but take the word "fucking." "Fucking" is the only middlefix in the English language. Abso-fucking-lutely. Massa-fucking-chusetts. It changes the respect of the word it modifies. It also has grammatical rules. You can't just put it in the middle of any word or at any arbitrary place. And it's purpose and level of respect (or lack thereof) is obvious to an English speaker though it might be difficult to precisely describe to somebody unfamiliar with it.

Now how would "abso-fucking-lutely" be translated into Japanese? Say if it were in an episode of South Park. Do you keep the word "fucking" and stick it in the middle of the Japanese equivalent of "absolutely"? Do you find a Japanese equivalent to "fucking" and include it in the middle of the Japanese equivalent of "absolutely"? Do you just straight up leave it "abso-fucking-lutely"? I don't think Japanese does anything like that grammatically. What significance does any of this have to a Japanese speaker? Would it convey the tone of respect clearly?

[Piccolo Daimaoh]

Because it wasn't..

Duuuuuuuuuhhhhh.


Translations are measured upon how seemless they adapt a certain language into another (see: the videos that Shinobi-03 posted). Using words like "san" and "sama" are not seemless. They reek of translation.

[Kaboom]

95% of the time, Japanese honorifics can either be translated or ignored entirely. That's just how things work out when they're being shifted into the English language. It's a common thing in the Japanese language, but we don't use them. Normally, there's no more sense in leaving an honorific untranslated than there is any other common, random word.

Even in the rare event when the honorific actually IS something important to the story, it can almost always be translated.