Gods with "sama"-honorific treated as full names in Viz?

[Piccolo Daimao]

So, I've been reading Viz's Dragon Ball manga and I've noticed how gods with the "sama"-honorific (Kami, Kaiô) seem to have their honorific-added names treated as their full names, to the point that even Piccolo, someone who shouldn't show Kami respect, refers to Kami as "Kami-sama" in some instances in the manga.

Thoughts?

[gotensottile]

Really? I have Volume 16 in front of me, and Piccolo simply calls him Kami.
Piccolo calls them Kami and Kaio, never has he referred to them with a -sama in the Viz Manga. If it did happen, it must only have been once.

[Greenman]

Really? I have Volume 16 in front of me, and Piccolo simply calls him Kami.
Piccolo calls them Kami and Kaio, never has he referred to them with a -sama in the Viz Manga. If it did happen, it must only have been once.

Piccolo does refers to him as Kami-sama in chapter 181 when he learns who Shen is.

EDIT: And again in chapter 182: "At last I have Kami-sama where I want him."

[The Tori-bot]

It's always puzzled me why Viz used no honourifics other than that one. Bulma referred to Raditz as "Son-kun's brother" once in volume 17/1 and that was about it.

[Kiyza]

From what I understand, VIZ is really fickle with the honorifics used in characters' names. I remember on the podcast, part of Herms's notes for volume 31 included that Piccolo used the honorific for God, despite the fact he didn't in the Japanese version. And then earlier in the same volume, Kuririn doesn't use the honorific in the translation, but he does in the Japanese manga. It's pretty confusing.

I've always thought that when used in manga translations, most of the time, it's okay to use what could be considered an English equivilant. A lot of the time, I see "dear" used in place of "chan" or "kun," which is fine and dandy with me. But it would be really weird if you were to see "Son dear." But then again, if you use the honorifics all the time, it can get distracting. Tokyopop always uses them in Fruits Basket and it gets on my nerves a lot of the time since they're used so often in some scenes. In all honesty, I'm not sure what to think about using honorifics in manga translations.

[Herms]

Note that Piccolo never add the sama honorific onto Kami's name in the Japanese manga. I think Viz just got increasingly careless with this stuff as time went on. In the beginning for instance, they did a reasonably good job making it clear that "Kami" was just the character's title, as God of Earth. But then later on they start treating "Kami" more and more like an actual name ("We can have a Namekian come here and be a god, just like Kami!"--Goku).

[Savage68]

Eh, I'd take what Viz does over what Tokyopop or Del Rey does any day. The honorifics become cumbersome after a certain point, and honestly, they've never been a necessity for me to understand what type of relationship Character A has with Character B. Never once have I watched the dub of a show, or read a manga's official English version, then go on to watch the animated version of the series only to say, "Wow. So this is what _______ thinks of _______. He used -kun!"

[Fin]

I'm generally against using honorifics in translations for a few reasons which can basically be summed up as, "It's a translators job to translate."

There are cases when I think their use enhances the translation though, such as in Excel Saga, which is for the most part a social commentary on life in Japan. They seem more appropriate there to me, since it actually is Japan, so staying faithful to parts of Japanese culture which don't really translate reads perfectly fine. Admittedly, a similar argument could say that Dragon Ball is set in a fictional universe which may as well use Japanese honorifics mixed in with English dialogue, but I never said my instinct regarding this stuff followed any sensible pattern of logic.

[Herms]

I'm generally against using honorifics in translations for a few reasons which can basically be summed up as, "It's a translators job to translate."

But the thing about honorifics is that they often can’t be translated very well. You could try translating san out to “mr/ms/mrs” wherever it pops up, but that would quickly lead problems. You’d have situations where it’d seem perfectly normal to use san in Japanese, but very unnatural or bizarre to use “mr/ms/mrs” in English, so you wouldn’t really be translating the mood or intent of the Japanese in that case. You could just chose to ignore san in situations like this (which is rather common), but then of course you haven’t actually translated it. I don’t think leaving honorifics in un-translated is a perfect or even particularly good solution in cases like these, but it’s not simply a case of a translator just leaving stuff un-translated for the hell of it. "It's a translators job to translate” is a bit too simplistic.

[JulieYBM]

I agree with Herms. It always irrates me with Viz's translations (espicially in anime) when the honorfics are not retained in. 'Kurosaki-kun' simply becomes 'Kurosaki' in Bleach meaning I hear one thing but see another, and that just gets annoying. The thing about Ichigo and Orihime's relationship is that they keep each other at a distance by their choice of name usage. With Dragon Ball, Bulma's use of 'Son-kun' quickly turned from faux-politeness to a genuine term of endearment. Heck, Chichi uses 'Gokû-sa' and I can't think of any good 'English translation' for that, other than 'Mr. Gokû'.

I swear to God every time I hear Kuririn say 'Bulma-san' as delivered by Tanaka I swear he had a secret crush on her, but that's just me interjecting my own thoughts into the discussion. :p

[Fin]

I'm generally against using honorifics in translations for a few reasons which can basically be summed up as, "It's a translators job to translate."

But the thing about honorifics is that they often can’t be translated very well. You could try translating san out to “mr/ms/mrs” wherever it pops up, but that would quickly lead problems. You’d have situations where it’d seem perfectly normal to use san in Japanese, but very unnatural or bizarre to use “mr/ms/mrs” in English, so you wouldn’t really be translating the mood or intent of the Japanese in that case. You could just chose to ignore san in situations like this (which is rather common), but then of course you haven’t actually translated it. I don’t think leaving honorifics in un-translated is a perfect or even particularly good solution in cases like these, but it’s not simply a case of a translator just leaving stuff un-translated for the hell of it. "It's a translators job to translate” is a bit too simplistic.

I guess I'm mostly for trying to make things more accessible to a broad English audience. I suppose to me the ideal situation is something like finding some workarounds to convey the general tone from one language to the other, while using footnotes to attempt to explain some of the rationale behind any changes, or to shed light on things that are lost because of the cultural gap.

(I feel bad for summing up my point that way now - I didn't intend to insult anyone working in linguistics fields by implying that translation is a very simple black-and-white task. It occurs to me it kind of reads that way though, so I apologise.)

[SHINOBI-03]

I'm generally against using honorifics in translations for a few reasons which can basically be summed up as, "It's a translators job to translate."

There are cases when I think their use enhances the translation though, such as in Excel Saga, which is for the most part a social commentary on life in Japan. They seem more appropriate there to me, since it actually is Japan, so staying faithful to parts of Japanese culture which don't really translate reads perfectly fine. Admittedly, a similar argument could say that Dragon Ball is set in a fictional universe which may as well use Japanese honorifics mixed in with English dialogue, but I never said my instinct regarding this stuff followed any sensible pattern of logic.

Here's a rule I follow when it comes to honorifics. "If the setting is in Japan, leave them as they are. If it's a fictional world or a non-Japanese country, no need to ad them.".

[Soul]

In terms of "Sama" I always assumed the best translation for it would be "Lord" which in a lot of anime adaptions that are pretty faithful, "Sama" is translated as Lord, which makes me wonder why in Kai that FUNi couldn't had tried to match:
1) The character's name is 'Kaio" not 'Kai'
2) They want to try and be as faithful as they can but won't?

Would "Lord Kaio" worked alright or appropriately?

[Gaffer Tape]

It's always puzzled me why Viz used no honourifics other than that one. Bulma referred to Raditz as "Son-kun's brother" once in volume 17/1 and that was about it.

Just wanted to pipe in to make a slight correction: that was volume 21. I remember nearly losing my shit when I saw they'd actually used Son-kun. I think there might be a couple of more instances where she refers to him as simply "Son" in the Viz manga, dropping the honorific, but I believe that was indeed the only time they had her use the entire name for him, and most of the time they simply used "Goku."

[Bussani]

I'm generally against using honorifics in translations for a few reasons which can basically be summed up as, "It's a translators job to translate."

But the thing about honorifics is that they often can’t be translated very well. You could try translating san out to “mr/ms/mrs” wherever it pops up, but that would quickly lead problems. You’d have situations where it’d seem perfectly normal to use san in Japanese, but very unnatural or bizarre to use “mr/ms/mrs” in English, so you wouldn’t really be translating the mood or intent of the Japanese in that case. You could just chose to ignore san in situations like this (which is rather common), but then of course you haven’t actually translated it. I don’t think leaving honorifics in un-translated is a perfect or even particularly good solution in cases like these, but it’s not simply a case of a translator just leaving stuff un-translated for the hell of it. "It's a translators job to translate” is a bit too simplistic.

Then there are times where the honorifics are an important part of a conversation or joke. Tenchi Muyo! is a pretty good example, with Washu insisting that everyone calls her "Washu-chan". The dub changed this to "Little Washu". Oddly, they also had Aeka refer to Tenchi as "Lord Tenchi" (instead of -sama I think), yet didn't do anything to reflect the fact that she uses honorifics for everyone--even her enemies.

[Gaffer Tape]

My thoughts are that, if you're watching or reading a foreign work, you'd be silly not to expect some "foreignisms" in there, even if it's translated. I mean, isn't that part of the fun of looking at something that's not from your culture? Plus, it's educational. I wouldn't know anything about honorifics or hundreds of other things about Japanese culture had I just continued watching FUNimation's DBZ dub, which took great pains to remove as much of that kind of thing as possible. So if it all possible, I prefer things like honorifics to be left in, especially if we're talking about a subtitled version. There's absolutely no reason to fudge anything then and just makes it even more confusing. To continue off of Bussani's Tenchi Muyo example, I remember in episode three where young Aeka was talking to Yosho. The subtitles for her lines said "Yosho," even though I could tell that was not the word coming out of her mouth. Once I got a bit more acclimated to Japanese culture, I realized she was referring to him as "older brother," and the subtitles were just taking a liberty to make it sound more "Americanized." Yes, it's a translator's job to translate, but in the same vein, I have to know that I can trust the translator to properly translate, not just "adapt."

[Savage68]

My thoughts are that, if you're watching or reading a foreign work, you'd be silly not to expect some "foreignisms" in there, even if it's translated. I mean, isn't that part of the fun of looking at something that's not from your culture?

There exist people that find anime/manga fun primarily because it's from another culture? Not because of quality or anything?

[JulieYBM]

My thoughts are that, if you're watching or reading a foreign work, you'd be silly not to expect some "foreignisms" in there, even if it's translated. I mean, isn't that part of the fun of looking at something that's not from your culture?

There exist people that find anime/manga fun primarily because it's from another culture? Not because of quality or anything?

Where did he ever say 'primarily'?

[Savage68]

Oh, you're right. Change that to "partly."

[Gaffer Tape]

Okay, I'll change that to "partly." So you said:

"There exist people that find anime/manga fun partly because it's from another culture? Not because of quality or anything?"

I would assume that's part of the appeal. I've often heard it is, and it's part of the appeal for me. I of course hope people have an eye for quality as well, but the two certainly don't have to be mutually exclusive.