The power of Mr.Satan

[LeprikanGT]

I'm still not sure what any of that is supposed to prove.

"If you don't train, you lose power... If you do train, you gain power... If a tree falls and no one's around to hear it, does it make a sound...?"

It doesn't ''prove'' anything. it just furthers the point that Yajirobe should be getting constanly weaker and Mr. Satan is getting constantly stronger. And I believe in a tournament fight Mr. Satan would take the win.


...and of course it does, that's just logic.

[Makaioshin]

I could maaaaaaaaybe understand the arguement of Mr. Satan and Yajirboe...]not really but for the same of a point] but I can't understand how Yajirobe would be stronger than Master Roshi.

I'm guessing you meant for the sake of the point. And you are not really making an argument here. Just stating the same thing, again.

It doesn't ''prove'' anything. it just furthers the point that Yajirobe should be getting constanly weaker and Mr. Satan is getting constantly stronger. And I believe in a tournament fight Mr. Satan would take the win.

...and of course it does, that's just logic.

You are, of course, assuming two things there.

[Kid Buu]

Didn't Tambourine kill the top human beings on Earth? Thus I wouldn't be surprised that the people of Mr. Satans time were weaker then early-DB humans.

[Herms]

Didn't Tambourine kill the top human beings on Earth?

Yeah, but they were all brought back to life by the dragonballs along with Kuririn, Kame-sennin, and co.

[Savage68]

It doesn't ''prove'' anything.

Not like I didn't already know, but as long as you're willing to admit it, I might as well end my part of the discussion on this note.

[Gaffer Tape]

I could maaaaaaaaybe understand the arguement of Mr. Satan and Yajirboe...]not really but for the same of a point] but I can't understand how Yajirobe would be stronger than Master Roshi.

Well, if you want to go just by pure numbers, Yajirobe completely and utterly outstrips Kame-sennin by the Saiya-jin arc. There's more to fighting than JUST focusing ki into projectiles, and Yajirobe has an incredible toughness to boot.

[LeprikanGT]

Theres no real way to prvoe or disprove whether he is stronger or weaker than people THAT far down on the ladder.....theres just facts about the show that could lead to a conclusion.

My conclusion just looks towards Mr. Satan beating Yajirobe. [and ince someone mentioned it, Master Roshi beating Yajirobe as well.]

@Gaffer: It if came down to a person that can do THAT much with his own Ki and is a martial arts master and someone who can eat and fight so-so, I'm going with the martial arts master all the way. After the Saiyan arc, I could see Yajirobe getting weaker and weaker since all he does it eat and hang out with Korrin. People get weaker without training, just look at Gohan.

[Makaioshin]

Theres no real way to prvoe or disprove whether he is stronger or weaker than people THAT far down on the ladder.....theres just facts about the show that could lead to a conclusion.

My conclusion just looks towards Mr. Satan beating Yajirobe. [and ince someone mentioned it, Master Roshi beating Yajirobe as well.

You have stated one 'fact' which is really you just assuming that A) Yajirobe has gotten so weak from the Saiyan arc to the Boo arc that he is now on the level of an ordinary human and B) That Mr. Satan is constantly getting stronger.

@Gaffer: It if came down to a person that can do THAT much with his own Ki and is a martial arts master and someone who can eat and fight so-so, I'm going with the martial arts master all the way.

If you dumb down his character like that. If it came down to a perverted old man and a samurai trained by God, I'd go with the samurai trained by God. See what I mean?

[LeprikanGT]

Theres no real way to prvoe or disprove whether he is stronger or weaker than people THAT far down on the ladder.....theres just facts about the show that could lead to a conclusion.

My conclusion just looks towards Mr. Satan beating Yajirobe. [and ince someone mentioned it, Master Roshi beating Yajirobe as well.

It is not a fact if you are assuming it.

@Gaffer: It if came down to a person that can do THAT much with his own Ki and is a martial arts master and someone who can eat and fight so-so, I'm going with the martial arts master all the way.

If you dumb down his character like that. If it came down to a perverted old man and a samurai trained by God, I'd go with the samurai trained by God. See what I mean?

Was it ever SAID he was a samurai or that he just fought with a sword? I'm still going with the martial arts master. Wasn't most of the training done my Mr. Popo? Did Yajirobe fly or climb the tower?

You can't call him a perverted old man and leave out the "martial arts master". that would be like the same as calling Yajirobe an obese glutton. Anyways, AGAIN, Yajirobe vs Master Roshi is off topic.

[Makaioshin]

Was it ever SAID he was a samurai or that he just fought with a sword? I'm still going with the martial arts master. Wasn't most of the training done my Mr. Popo? Did Yajirobe fly or climb the tower?

I don't think it is directly stated at any point in the story but that was not what I was trying to say at all. And yes, he did climb the tower with Goku on his back(first time).

You can't call him a perverted old man and leave out the "martial arts master". that would be like the same as calling Yajirobe an obese glutton.

Again, wasn't the point.

Anyways, AGAIN, Yajirobe vs Master Roshi is off topic.

I'll gladly stop.

[LeprikanGT]

Was it ever SAID he was a samurai or that he just fought with a sword? I'm still going with the martial arts master. Wasn't most of the training done my Mr. Popo? Did Yajirobe fly or climb the tower?

I don't think it is directly stated at any point in the story but that was not what I was trying to say at all. And yes, he did climb the tower with Goku on his back(first time).

You can't call him a perverted old man and leave out the "martial arts master". that would be like the same as calling Yajirobe an obese glutton.

Again, wasn't the point.

Anyways, AGAIN, Yajirobe vs Master Roshi is off topic.

I'll gladly stop.

As to Yajirobe, I'm not entirely sure WHY he trained as he never fought in Z IIRC, he was always saying how he didn't want to fight or get killed and all that. Not saying it is a gauge of strength but Mr. Satan lived through some of the biggest battles in Z and didn't run from them. Pure courage hould count for something [not strength.]

I wish there was some kind of way to match up two people in the "Z world" to see how it would actually happen, not just going on power levels, because thats not always the deciding factor.

[Bussani]

I could maaaaaaaaybe understand the arguement of Mr. Satan and Yajirboe...]not really but for the same of a point] but I can't understand how Yajirobe would be stronger than Master Roshi.

Tenshinhan fought Roshi, who eventually forfeited. Tenshinhan says that Roshi hadn't used his full power, but Roshi admits that if they'd continued, he would probably have lost to Tenshinhan; he also later says that he believes Goku has surpassed him. Goku and Tenshinhan are then practically even, and Yajirobe is then even with Goku shortly afterward, to the point that Goku even says he's the toughest guy he's ever met! And that's before Yajirobe trained with God, of course.

[Dayspring]

In the world of Dragon Ball, if Nam can one-shot you and/or run circles around you, you're weak. That's all there is to it. Being the strongest "average human" doesn't mean Satan would ever be considered anything special to any of the 21st Budokai warriors.

We're not arguing whether or not he's weak by the story's standards. After all, we quickly find out anyone who can't do that to someone of Radditz's strength is considered weak, and Radditz has a BP of at least 1,200.

However, just because he's not as strong as Nam does not mean he's an average human. If you mean "human" to mean any humanoid in the Universe, than he's well below average. If you mean it to be "Earthling," he's among the super elite. We know this, because anyone who wins the Budokai is given the title of strongest in the world. Here's how things normally go (from strongest to weakest):

Class S:
1) People Stronger Than Kami
2) People (as strong as those) Who Trained Under Kami (but did not surpass him)
3) People (as strong as those) Who Trained Under Karin (but did not surpass him)

Class A:
1) Budokai Winners
2) Budokai Finalists (meaning, those who lost to the winners in the final match)
3) Fighters Who Passed Budokai Prelims (but didn't make final match)

Class B:
1) Fighters Who Failed To Pass Budokai Prelims (but still tried out)
2) Winners of Other Martial Arts Tournaments
3) Other Fighters

Class C:
1) Athletes (like Shapner, or whatever the long-haired douche from Gohan's school is called)
2) Average People (Bulma, Farmer w/shotgun, etc)
3) Children and The Infirm

Class C would be the weakest class, but it still average by human standards. To be elite by their standards, you need to have at least qualified for the Budokai Tournament. If you win, you're the strongest on the planet by human standards. So if not for Kamesennin and Tsurusennin's influence, Pamputt, Chapa and Namu would have been ranked A-1, maybe even S-3. So yes, they would have been stronger than Satan, but that doesn't mean Satan is a nobody.

[Gaffer Tape]

Well, yes, the person who wins the Tenkaichi Budoukai is given the title of strongest in the world, but, as we've seen the series show with Mr. Satan, that doesn't necessarily mean that person is actually the strongest person in the world. It just means he/she might be the strongest person who happened to enter that tournament. Does that necessarily mean the strongest person in the world entered? Does that necessarily mean that all strong people care about entering? Again, not necessarily. Let's say, for example, that Namu IS much stronger than Mr. Satan. Is Namu the kind of person who would regularly enter a tournament? Probably not. The only reason he ever entered was to save his dying village. But then you have someone like Satan who lives for things like tournaments and would of course frequently compete. Based on that criteria, Mr. Satan, who does enter, has a much higher chance of winning the Tenkaichi Budoukai than Namu, who doesn't enter, does. Just saying you can't necessarily make assumptions of strength based solely on titles. Obviously, the fact that certain contingents of the Dragon World do is the only reason we would ever even know about someone like Mr. Satan.

[LeprikanGT]

Can we atleast say if the 'Z-warriors' didn't exist and the Earth was on it's own [Kami of Earth-less] that Mr. Satan WOULD be one of the strongest humans?

Anyone regular would of course be over shadowed by the Z fighters but as just humans go, he isn't just some weakling.

[Dayspring]

Well, yes, the person who wins the Tenkaichi Budoukai is given the title of strongest in the world, but, as we've seen the series show with Mr. Satan, that doesn't necessarily mean that person is actually the strongest person in the world. It just means he/she might be the strongest person who happened to enter that tournament. Does that necessarily mean the strongest person in the world entered? Does that necessarily mean that all strong people care about entering? Again, not necessarily. Let's say, for example, that Namu IS much stronger than Mr. Satan. Is Namu the kind of person who would regularly enter a tournament? Probably not. The only reason he ever entered was to save his dying village. But then you have someone like Satan who lives for things like tournaments and would of course frequently compete. Based on that criteria, Mr. Satan, who does enter, has a much higher chance of winning the Tenkaichi Budoukai than Namu, who doesn't enter, does. Just saying you can't necessarily make assumptions of strength based solely on titles. Obviously, the fact that certain contingents of the Dragon World do is the only reason we would ever even know about someone like Mr. Satan.

Yes, you can. Only Earth's elite fighters pass the budokai prelims. That's why all the story's main characters fought in it over and over again. Does that mean Satan is barely stronger than Bulma just because Namu and Pamputt could kick his ass anyway? No, it just means they're even stronger than an example of what's considered elite. You can argue he's just the strongest among the weakest elite fighters, but the fact remains that he's still an elite.

To put it in another context, compare the humans to Saiyans:
Saiyan Saga Vegeta = 22nd Budokai Tenshinhan
King Vegeta = Namu/Chapa/Pamputt
Nappa = Satan
Saiyan Elite Warriors Weaker Than Nappa = Jewel, Kiera, Spopovitch, etc
Radditz = Bulma

Is Nappa weak even though someone weaker than Vegeta could kill him? No, and the same goes with Satan vs Namu.

[Gaffer Tape]

Again, not necessarily. A tournament is only as difficult or prestigious as the quality of its entrants. We know that the 21st-23rd raised the bar because we are told and shown as much. We know that by the 25th, the quality has dropped because we are told that it has. We know that the 23rd had many fewer entrants because of the fear of Piccolo Daimao. How many of those who dropped out due to fear for their lives might have been stronger than the ones who did make it to the finals because they bothered to compete? You simply can't apply the same standards across the board because the entrants are always changing. Therefore, we don't know how Satan would have done at previous tournaments or against certain competitors that he never directly had to face. Hell, for all we know, Satan might have just gotten the luck of the draw against easy opponents. It's not something we ever really see happen in Dragon Ball (and most of the time we have people fixing matchups anyway), but luck is a good part of tournament fighting as well. The fact is, there are just too many variables to have any kind of certainty. And isn't "elite" in this case just a designation you made up?

[Dayspring]

Again, not necessarily. A tournament is only as difficult or prestigious as the quality of its entrants. We know that the 21st-23rd raised the bar because we are told and shown as much. We know that by the 25th, the quality has dropped because we are told that it has. We know that the 23rd had many fewer entrants because of the fear of Piccolo Daimao. How many of those who dropped out due to fear for their lives might have been stronger than the ones who did make it to the finals because they bothered to compete? You simply can't apply the same standards across the board because the entrants are always changing. Therefore, we don't know how Satan would have done at previous tournaments or against certain competitors that he never directly had to face. Hell, for all we know, Satan might have just gotten the luck of the draw against easy opponents. It's not something we ever really see happen in Dragon Ball (and most of the time we have people fixing matchups anyway), but luck is a good part of tournament fighting as well. The fact is, there are just too many variables to have any kind of certainty. And isn't "elite" in this case just a designation you made up?

You're completely missing the point.

If "ridiculously strong" = pushing the mountain Krillin and Goku that moved when they were finishing their training, just because pushing that mountain is child's play to Ma Junior Piccolo doesn't mean Krillin and Goku are weak.

So could the standards in which this mountain was pushed be lower? Of course! It took them seconds to move it a few feet while wearing 90kg. It might take Satan days while wearing no weighted clothing just to move it a few inches down an icy hill. However, because he moved it at all, he meets the standards of "ridiculously strong."

The title of budokai winner is the "mountain" in this analogy. It doesn't matter if the bar was raised or lowered, he's meeting the bar in question. If "strong" is weaker than what it used to be, it just means he's "strong" by current standards instead of old ones. Either way, he is considered strong by human standards.

So would he win against Namu because of this? Nope. I think he'd make it past the prelims, but lose against anyone else who did. At the 24th budokai, nobody was stronger than him (we know this, since he set the record for the punch machine), so he managed to win.

For another analogy, if it takes a BP over 18,000 to be considered "elite" and all predecessors meeting that requirement were the Ginyu Force members, you wouldn't call Dodoria weak, since he still has a BP over 18,000.

And yes, I am using the designation "elite." Substitute it with "tough," "strong" or "hardest-punch-give-able" for all I care; you still get my point.

EDIT: Another analogy: Someone who completes a marathon is "strong." It doesn't matter if it took him minutes or if he hit the deadline. If he completed it, he's strong. Goku is 3 minutes, Pamputt is 90 minutes, Satan is 18 hours, but all were strong enough to do it.

[Gaffer Tape]

I'm not even saying he (or anybody else) is weak. I'm just saying that judging Mr. Satan based on tournament performances is not reliable for any kind of comparison to other characters. I mean, if the tournament was the only measuring bar, that puts Mr. Satan and Goku on even footing. I mean, let's say a Tenkaichi Budoukai, for some reason or other, only had two competitors, two people who bothered to enter: Mr. Satan and an overweight ice cream vendor, and Mr. Satan wins. Can you really say that that gives any clear indication to how strong he is compared to the rest of the world? Would you really be able to, with a straight face, compare it to the tournament that Goku won? They're both the same tournament series, after all, so they're both still "mountains" as you put it.

[Dayspring]

I'm not even saying he (or anybody else) is weak. I'm just saying that judging Mr. Satan based on tournament performances is not reliable for any kind of comparison to other characters.

Sorry; I kind of made my response person-neutral, meaning I was responding to you and people claiming Satan is at most the strongest of the everyday regular humans (meaning people like Bulma).

I mean, if the tournament was the only measuring bar, that puts Mr. Satan and Goku on even footing.

This is kind of my point, though. By human standards, if you were to put Goku and Satan into "weakling human," "average human" or "strong human," which would you choose? Both would and should go into "strong human" category, even if they're lightyears apart.

Compare their strengths to cash. Millionnaires and Trillionnaires are all "rich," even though they're nowhere near each other's level of "richness."

I mean, let's say a Tenkaichi Budoukai, for some reason or other, only had two competitors, two people who bothered to enter: Mr. Satan and an overweight ice cream vendor, and Mr. Satan wins. Can you really say that that gives any clear indication to how strong he is compared to the rest of the world? Would you really be able to, with a straight face, compare it to the tournament that Goku won? They're both the same tournament series, after all, so they're both still "mountains" as you put it.

I see your point, but the odds of something like that would be like only two weaklings going for the Olympics.

And before you say Olympics have qualifying rounds, note that the budokai had the prelims and punch machine qualifyers. Yes you're still only taking the best of the best, but the Olympic qualifyers are like that, too.

So I'm totally with you in that we have nothing to compare him to stronger people like Namu. However, the purpose of this debate isn't to compare Satan to those kinds of fighters, but to compare him to regular people like Bulma. Is he strong by Bulma's standards? I say yes, because winning the budokai is like winning an Olympic gold medal, regardless of how weak the Olympians were that year.