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Duo
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Post by Duo » Tue Feb 21, 2006 3:17 pm

Bejiita - I was just using that image to depict the aura, not the hair.

Great drawings. I think that pretty much seals up the hair issue for people.

Time for a mini-rant...

In the Manga, the aura's are very consistent and easy to distinguish. Many Anime watchers may not be aware of this. Every form always has the same aura and it doesn't change. There are a few occasions when the aura may be more intense than normal (powering up for a blast, initial transformation...) but other then that, it is always the same (and always present.)

Never does a Super Saiya'jin have lightning bolts in his aura.

Never does a Super Saiya'jin 2 not have lightning bolts in his aura.

Thus, by that alone, Vegetto couldn't have been Ssj2 because he would be a contradiction to every rule established about Aura's prior to this.

End mini rant.

Akira wrote:On the matter of Piccolo:

Although math equations are often redundant and annoying, in this case I agree with what was stated previously.

(Piccolo Daimao Junior + Kami Piccolo) x 2

That very much sums up the way I believe it to work for that specific remerging. They were both 50% of the original complete 100% namek, therefore that equation makes sense. Nail was entirely different, a completely seperate entity merging with basically half an entity. Nail was wounded badly by Freeza and near death. He recognized Piccolo, and stated that it was too bad that he came to the battle "incomplete" so to speak. He states then that had Piccolo come as his true self, Freeza would like nothing to him.

Nail becomes the submissive entity and merges with Piccolo even though at full health he would have been far stronger. The equation used to figure out how thier fused power worked would NOT be the same as the one used to figure out the Piccolo + Kami remerger. I will leave that to be determined by someone else, but I know that there would be a different method to determine how thier 100% + 50% merger worked.
You're right on what you concluded upon. In my opinion, we can't really attach general-case multipliers to the situations. Clearly, Piccolo was only made as strong as needed to be for the situation and logical multiplying wasn't a factor in Toriyama-sensei's mind. Otherwise, he would have gotten much much much much stronger from the K---

Actually, no, I just thought of something. Would having merged with Nail reduce the potency of re-merging with Kami? There's our explanation, if any.

I have to side with the 2x theory for Kami + Piccolo because it is the only theory with any foundation or sense. It is the strongest theory.
Akira wrote:Battle against Vegeta:
1770 – Krillin
2800 – Son Gohan
28000 – Oozaru Son Gohan
8000 – Son Goku
16000 – Son Goku (Kaioken x2)
24000 – Son Goku (Kaioken x3)
32000 – Son Goku (Kaioken x4)
18000 – Vegeta
24000 – Vegeta (maximum – Gallick-ho)
180000 – Oozaru Vegeta
These aren't, by any means, bad - But there are a couple of things you may or may not have overlooked I would like to mention.

The Power level you have listed for Son Gohan was during his use of the Masenko, so it may be a combination of anger and the typical increase from focusing Ki.

With how beaten Vegeta was by the time Gohan became a Great Ape, I highly doubt his power would have needed to be higher than even 4,000 or 5,000. Vegeta was barely able to walk and, when he threw out his Ki in all directions (this is after the Genki-Dama) he did even less damage to the Terrain than Piccolo at the 23'rd Tenka'ichi Budokai.

Gohan was injured pretty bad, too.

Son Goku & Kaio-Ken

When Vegeta read Goku's power level after he went to full power, it read "Over 8,000." This influences the numbers...a little bit, but not much.

I think we can attribute the equal power of the Kamehameha and Gyarikku-Ho to the fact that Goku had just come out of using Kaio-Ken x3, and his body was suffering from the effects. His base level easily could have been down to 6,000 at this point.

Vegeta and the Great Ape

Keep in mind that when Vegeta turned into a Great Ape, he had suffered some heavy damage and sacrificed a significant amount of Ki to form the Moon Ball (he notes this beforehand, and Goku observes the same when he makes it.) so, again, it would probably be lower.

But these are just some situational things and some of my observations. I still think your levels are a great base to work with or maybe not even change to keep things from becoming overly complex.

That is all.

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Post by Bejiita » Tue Feb 21, 2006 4:06 pm

Duo wrote:Bejiita - I was just using that image to depict the aura, not the hair.

Great drawings. I think that pretty much seals up the hair issue for people.

Time for a mini-rant...

In the Manga, the aura's are very consistent and easy to distinguish. Many Anime watchers may not be aware of this. Every form always has the same aura and it doesn't change. There are a few occasions when the aura may be more intense than normal (powering up for a blast, initial transformation...) but other then that, it is always the same (and always present.)

Never does a Super Saiya'jin have lightning bolts in his aura.

Never does a Super Saiya'jin 2 not have lightning bolts in his aura.

Thus, by that alone, Vegetto couldn't have been Ssj2 because he would be a contradiction to every rule established about Aura's prior to this.

End mini rant.
Good to clear that up, I never even noticed the aura's being the same throughout the manga, or even the anime, I don't really pay that much attention I usually looka t the drawings, or reading the subtitles.

And the pics are just to show the difference between the hair, well how I think it would look.
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Post by Duo » Tue Feb 21, 2006 4:19 pm

Well, I mean, anyone who's read your Fan Manga knows that you know a thing or two about the finer details of Toriyama-Sensei's artwork. If you say Vegetto's hair would be different as an Ssj2, that's more than enough to convince me.

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Post by desirecampbell » Tue Feb 21, 2006 4:21 pm

Duo wrote:Well, I mean, anyone who's read your Fan Manga knows that you know a thing or two about the finer details of Toriyama-Sensei's artwork. If you say Vegetto's hair would be different as an Ssj2, that's more than enough to convince me.
I was just about to say the same thing :D

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Post by Conan the SSJ » Tue Feb 21, 2006 5:46 pm

A debating thread discussing power levels and SSJ2. Thank God we're not talking about what's canon, this would be World War III if that were the case. Anyhow, I'm staying out of this, go on and argue for infinity, friends. :P
14 years later

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Post by Dayspring » Tue Feb 21, 2006 5:53 pm

I'm starting to think Toriyama took a cofee break after drawing SSJ2 Vegetto. His hair is longer than SSJ, he does have lightning, but starting the next panel he's in regular SSJ. :P


Akira: Vegeta at 24,000 didn't occur until after the battle on Earth. There's no arguing this since he was never stronger than Dodoria or Zarbon until after the boost. Even he mentions this in the Namek saga. You have to note that kaioken isn't permanent. We also don't know how effective it is when being used past what you can handle, so I think it wore off after Goku knocked Vegeta around. Kaioken times four probably just lasted long enough to revert the ki flow of their duel. Note that it wasn't even focussed enough to hurt Vegeta, it just pushed him into the air.

I disagree with your Oozaru Vegeta. He wasted a shitload of energy creating the fake moon, so his base would have been beneath 18,000. Still above 40,000 though, since he was able to swat kaioken x5 Goku with his tail.
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Post by DBZ MAN » Tue Feb 21, 2006 6:01 pm

I Personaly think that Vegetto can ONLY go Super Saiyan as potara fusions work differently to dance fusions (I forget the name).
If Goten and Trunks fused using potara, their 'gotenks' would only need to go super saiyan to achieve full power.
I believe this to be so because in the nature of writing a story, Toriyama would have included that Vegetto could go even higher. I think that Old Kai even told Goku that he only needs to transform to super saiyan to achieve this anyway.
Everyone has made excellent points :)
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Post by Bejiita » Tue Feb 21, 2006 6:26 pm

Lol...at desirecampbell and Duo. :lol:

Fair enough I suppose.

DBZ MAN, I think when Old Kai says that he means they'll only need to turn SSJ to win the battle. But I doubt this guy knows that much about the levels of SSJ anyway.

I actually thought fusion with Potara produced a stronger outcome than the fusion dance, that's why they only needed to turn SSJ and no further, Vegetto already realised his power as soon as they were fused, he probably could have dealt with him in base form, he just wanted to show Buu the battle was one-sided to resort to absorbing him to save the others.

I wish Toriyama drew more base form Vegetto's though, like a little fight instead of just turning SSJ straight off, he's a cool character and pictures of him by Toriyama are quite rare. I think the one on DBZ 2's game cover is his drawing, as well as the others, but there arn't many I've seen, not even in the Daizenshuu books.
Last edited by Bejiita on Wed Feb 22, 2006 11:13 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by ItsAllGood » Tue Feb 21, 2006 7:28 pm

"I actually thought fusion with Potara produced a stronger outcome than the fusion dance, that's why they only needed to turn SSJ and no further - Bejiita"

I also remember distinctly that The Elder Kai mentions that Potara fusing is much more effective than the Metamorese Fusion dance, even telling Goku not to bother transforming into SSJ beforehand, as he wont need the extra power.

Perhaps the Elder Kai knew more about SSJ and Saiyans in general than he was letting on. He mentions something along the lines of "If he remembers correctly, Saiyans can't stay in their powered up state forever"

Can anyone clarify this from the Manga?

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Post by Duo » Wed Feb 22, 2006 4:47 am

ItsAllGood wrote:"I actually thought fusion with Potara produced a stronger outcome than the fusion dance, that's why they only needed to turn SSJ and no further - Bejiita"

I also remember distinctly that The Elder Kai mentions that Potara fusing is much more effective than the Metamorese Fusion dance, even telling Goku not to bother transforming into SSJ beforehand, as he wont need the extra power.

Perhaps the Elder Kai knew more about SSJ and Saiyans in general than he was letting on. He mentions something along the lines of "If he remembers correctly, Saiyans can't stay in their powered up state forever"

Can anyone clarify this from the Manga?
Give me a month and 8 days.

Though, I do remember him saying all of that in...the Dub, Videogames, and Fanslated Manga. I know those aren't the most reliable of sources alone, but if they all line up, perhaps it means something?

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Post by Bejiita » Wed Feb 22, 2006 11:10 am

Well in the Japanese version when Goku asks if they can really win with Potara, Old Kai says something along the lines of...

"Of couse you can! Plus the effect is even greater than Fusion! Us Kaioshin have kept these sort of treasures up our sleeves for a long time you know!

So, I thought I remembered it from somewhere, the only downside of this is the fusion last forever, but let Fat Buu eat them and spit them out and they're back again! Heh.

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Post by Dayspring » Wed Feb 22, 2006 3:15 pm

On Potaras (all are quotes taken from books 41 and 42):

Rou Kaioshin: "The Potaras don't have the weakness of Fusion. It's permanent."

...

Goku: "Is it better to use the Potaras after going Super Saiyan?"

Rou Kaioshin: "No, it's the same. Once you fuse, it's for life. And Super Saiyan forces you to consume far too much energy... That'll shorten your life-span..."

Goku: "Is that so?"

Rou Kaioshin: "If you really want to go Super Saiyan, do it after you have merged. Either way, I don't think it'll be necessary! The power of the Potaras is gigantic!! And also... you can only use it once in a lifetime."

Goku: "Ah... Have you ever used it?"

Rou Kaioshin: "Hum... Yes... Hmf... Once upon a time I was a handsome man... But... A witch tried on my Potara and that's how I became as I am now... But, it's also thanks to that happening that I acquired certain powers..."

... (42)

Goku: "With Satan...? No!! It wouldn't work if we attained a power of 1001 instead of 1000! We might even become weaker!"

...

Kaioshin: "The strength of the Potaras is much greater than I had imagined!"

Rou Kaioshin: "Idiot! That's because it's them! This is the union of two of the three strongest beings in the universe and afterlife! Added to that, they're rivals! It's normal that such a union would create the strongest of all fighters."
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Post by ItsAllGood » Thu Feb 23, 2006 9:26 am

"Rou Kaioshin: "If you really want to go Super Saiyan, do it after you have merged. Either way, I don't think it'll be necessary! The power of the Potaras is gigantic!! And also... you can only use it once in a lifetime."

If the Potara earings can be used only once in a lifetime, why did Goku freak when Vegeta crushed the ear-ring later on, just after they were eaten by Buu? :?

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Post by Blitzen » Thu Feb 23, 2006 9:51 am

ItsAllGood wrote: If the Potara earings can be used only once in a lifetime, why did Goku freak when Vegeta crushed the ear-ring later on, just after they were eaten by Buu? :?
Because he's a simple-minded idiot who can't really pay attention?

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Post by Dayspring » Thu Feb 23, 2006 11:06 am

ItsAllGood wrote:"Rou Kaioshin: "If you really want to go Super Saiyan, do it after you have merged. Either way, I don't think it'll be necessary! The power of the Potaras is gigantic!! And also... you can only use it once in a lifetime."

If the Potara earings can be used only once in a lifetime, why did Goku freak when Vegeta crushed the ear-ring later on, just after they were eaten by Buu? :?
Probably because once you're fused, it's for life, so the fused being can most likely never use fusion with another person.

Or Toriyama forgot...again. :P
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Post by Bejiita » Thu Feb 23, 2006 12:02 pm

Maybe when he said used 'once in a lifetime' he meant becuase there is no known way of separation. Well, no way he knew of anyway.

Even the Old Kai was angry when they both crushed the earring for the second time because they probably could have fused again.

Or am I wrong?
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Post by Dayspring » Thu Feb 23, 2006 12:28 pm

Bejiita wrote:Maybe when he said used 'once in a lifetime' he meant becuase there is no known way of separation. Well, no way he knew of anyway.

Even the Old Kai was angry when they both crushed the earring for the second time because they probably could have fused again.

Or am I wrong?
But that's what I meant. Since you'll always be the fused being, maybe the fused being could never use the potaras and THAT's where the "only once" rule comes in.

Or you'd never revert to normal, since it's permanent, and therefore just never get the oppurtunity to use it a second time.
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Post by Bejiita » Thu Feb 23, 2006 12:35 pm

But since they separated in Buu they would have been able to fuse again when they were able to against Kidd buu.
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Post by Dayspring » Thu Feb 23, 2006 1:08 pm

Bejiita wrote:But since they separated in Buu they would have been able to fuse again when they were able to against Kidd buu.
Which would be the exception to the rule, since in every other case it ended up being permanent.
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Post by Akira » Fri Feb 24, 2006 1:19 am

So many of the battle powers are read while someone is in the process of powering up or other such points where exacts aren't determinable. I used to care about them for the sagas they apeared in, but they truly are nothing but rough numerical estimates. All I can do is shrug my shoulders, I care not to really disagree with anyone on them.



Piccolo and Nail yeilded a larger power up [for the time] because it was two seperate guys fusing. When Kami and Piccolo fused back, it was a recombination and while it boosted him above the Super Saiyans at that time, I don't think it was as much of a boost as merging with Nail was. Relatively speaking that is.

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