How powerful are Piccolo and Shisami?

[h0kuten]

Nah, use my second form of logic and Tagoma could be simply shitting himself by this point, again, out of fear of Freeza's reputation and an over estimation on what he's truly capable of.

Tagoma and his ally weren't around for Mecha Freeza and probably never sensed them. Why? Because even Gohan says Freeza is WAYYY stronger than that; Freeza's Organic form.

I'm not sure why you're so desperately trying to make sense out of this. You're reaching far, why are you going to such lengths to explain stuff when the answer is clear as day? You're reaching for conclusions the story never hinted at. Just say it doesn't make sense how Shisami was so powerful and move on. Until you do, I'll continue to say Pilaf was stronger than Daimao because obviously I can't be proven wrong as long as I can make any assumptions I want.

I think the difference between me and you is that when something doesn't make sense to your own personal head canon and fan interpretation you just reject it. Myself on the other-hand, tries to come up with logical theories to explain such things.

That's exactly why I'm here, to debate and come a logical conclusion with other Dragonball Z fans. Not to sit here and bicker with you.

[dbgtFO]

Tagoma and Shisami were on the level of Zarbon and Dodoria as stated by Sorbet. They are not suggested to be on Freeza's level at all, so they aren't. Easy peasy.

[Doctor.]

Nah, use my second form of logic and Tagoma could be simply shitting himself by this point, again, out of fear of Freeza's reputation and an over estimation on what he's truly capable of.

Tagoma and his ally weren't around for Mecha Freeza and probably never sensed them. Why? Because even Gohan says Freeza is WAYYY stronger than that; Freeza's Organic form.

I'm not sure why you're so desperately trying to make sense out of this. You're reaching far, why are you going to such lengths to explain stuff when the answer is clear as day? You're reaching for conclusions the story never hinted at. Just say it doesn't make sense how Shisami was so powerful and move on. Until you do, I'll continue to say Pilaf was stronger than Daimao because obviously I can't be proven wrong as long as I can make any assumptions I want.

I think the difference between me and you is that when something doesn't make sense to your own personal head canon and fan interpretation you just reject it. Myself on the other-hand, tries to come up with logical theories to explain such things.

That's exactly why I'm here, to debate and come a logical conclusion with other Dragonball Z fans. Not to sit here and bicker with you.

I have no head canon. When something is stupid, it's stupid. When something contradicts pre-established information, it's a contradiction. I don't try to find a way to make it work, I don't try to go around the issue, I don't try to find explanations the material doesn't bother to provide, I dismiss it as nonsense because that's what it is. To do something like that would make me a biased fanboy who can't admit when something is flawed, I'm sorry but I don't intend to be that kind of fan, criticism is good.

Like I have continuously said, Tagoma being stronger than Freeza is just as unreasonable as Pilaf being stronger than Daimao.

[ShaneisMC]

The way i see it is either you just have to accept something is bullshit or if you want to make an assumption without making some crazy explanation is that you could try to argue that the characters simply had no idea wtf they were talking about. It certainly wouldnt be unusual for a character/s in the series to be utterly ignorant/clueless about the "reality" of things. I definitely would like to try to think that way than to just give up on it. Thats no fun. Thats why i just pray Toriyama and crew dont manage to royally screw something up that would create a serious, serious problem. Like how I'm worried about if Pan is going to be brought in. Theyd have to pull some ridiculous backwards ass magic to remedy that situation and have the Z ending still work.

[Saiyan007]

Tagoma and Shisami were on the level of Zarbon and Dodoria as stated by Sorbet. They are not suggested to be on Freeza's level at all, so they aren't. Easy peasy.

Then Shisami obviously trained then.

Sorbet himself was shocked when he lost.Not too mention they did thier research on the z fighters before they came to the planet. I recall one of the soildiers right before freeza blows them up that they were much stronger than they anticipated.

They had a rough idea how strong these guys were and Piccolo doesn't stop training so him dropping to Zarbon tier in a couple months will never make sense so the only possible way this makes sense is Shisami trained in the 4 months

[h0kuten]

Shisami appeared to be Sorbet's last resort if Frieza's soldiers failed. So I see no reason he didn't train those remaining four months.

[Draconic]

Tagoma was already working under Sorbet, who was weaker than him. Leadership skill has nothing to do with strength. Also, we know that Abo and Kado could become as strong as Namek Frieza, so it's not unheared of beings lower in rank to become much powerful with time. And Tagoma has no idea how powerful Frieza actually îs, since he can't sense ki and all the scouters blew up as he was regenerating. So, going only by reputation, Tagoma could think Frieza to be stronger than he actually was.

[Doctor.]

Shisami still got blown back when the glass of Freeza's ship broke, while Freeza did not, so that's proof that he was weaker at the start of the film. It's a reasonable assumption that he'd train and become as strong as Piccolo, but to say he and Tagoma were stronger than Freeza at the start of the film when all evidence points otherwise...

[h0kuten]

Shisami still got blown back when the glass of Freeza's ship broke, while Freeza did not, so that's proof that he was weaker at the start of the film. It's a reasonable assumption that he'd train and become as strong as Piccolo, but to say he and Tagoma were stronger than Freeza at the start of the film when all evidence points otherwise...

He was off guard when that happened while Frieza clearly, was the cause of it.

[Draconic]

Shisami still got blown back when the glass of Freeza's ship broke, while Freeza did not, so that's proof that he was weaker at the start of the film. It's a reasonable assumption that he'd train and become as strong as Piccolo, but to say he and Tagoma were stronger than Freeza at the start of the film when all evidence points otherwise...

And where is the evidence Shisami trained and became stronger? There is no line, no scene, no anything to point that is true. It is just an assumption, just like mine. There is no evidence one way or the other, else we wouldn't have this discussion.
Also, what has getting blown back got to do with anything? We know Frieza is a durabile dude. He was alive in just pieces, I assume he can endure a little wind. He tanked a full power Kamehameha, while at the same level with it. A Kamehameha that blown half of Cell's body away, while Goku was weaker than him. Does that make Cell weaker than Frieza?

[supercat]

Tagoma being stronger than Frieza makes zero sense for numerous reasons. First and foremost, there's no way he would have gotten killed the way he did if that were the case. Even if he were caught off guard telekinetically, he had an ample amount of time to free himself of Frieza's psychic grasp before being thrown off the ship.

Keeping things in-universe, Shisami being able to deck Piccolo in the face was probably a result of the former employing an intense training regime alongside his boss.

Sure I could blame the writing and the fact that previously established information wasn't at all taken into consideration, but why the hell would I waste time writing a post about that in an in-universe thread where the primary purpose is to formulate theories and/or speculations pertaining to these types of discussions?

[h0kuten]

I've already covered the ample amount of time argument.

[supercat]

I've already covered the ample amount of time argument.

Frieza's telekinetic abilities aren't even remotely akin to the magic that Babidi leveraged to subdue superior fighters. Why does Tagoma even have to be stronger than Frieza anyway? Clearly the whole purpose behind him getting killed off like that was to signify that he, along with the rest of the Planet Trade Organization were still mere pawns with trivial power levels in the face of their leader.

Shisami training may lack the evidence to firmly back it up, but at least nothing contradicts it.

[RandomGuy96]

If they fight together, they might be able to manage something against Recoome.

[h0kuten]

I've already covered the ample amount of time argument.

Freeza's telekinetic abilities aren't even remotely akin to the magic that Babidi leveraged to subdue superior fighters. Why does Tagoma even have to be stronger than Freeza anyway? Clearly the whole purpose behind him getting killed off like that was to signify that he, along with the rest of the Planet Trade Organization were still mere pawns with trivial power levels in the face of their leader.

Shisami training may lack the evidence to firmly back it up, but at least nothing contradicts it.

He was taken off guard and as scared shitless from Friesza's reputation, hence why he didn't make a move when he could.

There I explained it without contradicting anything except fan speculation.

[FoolsGil]

How powerful are Piccolo and Shisami? I'd say that by now Piccolo could destroy Semi-Perfect Cell, and Shisami is at the same level.

[h0kuten]

How powerful are Piccolo and Shisami? I'd say that by now Piccolo could destroy Semi-Perfect Cell, and Shisami is at the same level.

The Herms translations say Vegeta & Trunks weren't the only ones who could defend themselves against a Cell Junior. The only other possibility is Piccolo, nobody else is strong enough.

What we know of gaps is that anything that's a 20% gap or higher is a complete stomp. Therefore Piccolo is much, much stronger than Semi-Perfect Cell by default.

[ekrolo2]

How powerful are Piccolo and Shisami? I'd say that by now Piccolo could destroy Semi-Perfect Cell, and Shisami is at the same level.

The Herms translations say Vegeta & Trunks weren't the only ones who could defend themselves against a Cell Junior. The only other possibility is Piccolo, nobody else is strong enough.

What we know of gaps is that anything that's a 20% gap or higher is a complete stomp. Therefore Piccolo is much, much stronger than Semi-Perfect Cell by default.

Does it really? Because lots of people simply state the manga shows Piccolo getting mauled like the humans did.

[ZombieVito]

Does it really? Because lots of people simply state the manga shows Piccolo getting mauled like the humans did.

Spoiler:

[Herms]

The Herms translations say Vegeta & Trunks weren't the only ones who could defend themselves against a Cell Junior.

Well, Cell says something that implies that, anyway.