Why is Gogeta super sayain?

[desirecampbell]

When Vegeto turned SSJ, he had sparks around his aura. Does this mean he quickly powered up to SSJ2?

Actually, it does, and he did.

It's just the way his aura started out in that one panel. I believe this is somewhat similar. He turns SSJ and what we see is the aura engulfing him then it getting back to look like a normal aura around him.

That's also possible. The way the Super Saiyan aura surrounds him is the same whether he's simply gathering energy or transforming into a Super Saiyan. So we can't decide it's one or the other without more proof, like a shot of him with black hair.

[Tyro]

I really don't see how you can call Vegeto a SSJ2 for that one instant. Every other picture with him doesn't show one single solitary lightning bolt. But, this is not what this topic is about.

Here is a picture of Gogeta almost the very second he appears. All it shows is his aura lighter and different than before.

http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j71/T ... ure003.jpg

Like I said, I believe we are seeing him transform.

[desirecampbell]

I really don't see how you can call Vegeto a SSJ2 for that one instant. Every other picture with him doesn't show one single solitary lightning bolt. But, this is not what this topic is about.

It's a manga convention, SSj2's always have lightning while SSj1's never do. It was brought up in another thread a while back. He seems to transform into a SSj2 for an instant, then scales it back to the first level. I'm not saying he had a reason for it, I'm just saying that's what happened.

Here is a picture of Gogeta almost the very second he appears. All it shows is his aura lighter and different than before.

Like I said, I believe we are seeing him transform.

Okay... it's lighter... so? Remember my last post? When I said that "the Super Saiyan aura surrounds him is the same whether he's simply gathering energy or transforming into a Super Saiyan. So we can't decide it's one or the other without more proof, like a shot of him with black hair"? Well, that statement's still true. Unless there's more to go on then his aura, we can't conclusivly say that he was transforming.

[Xyex]

Forgive me for not reading EVERYTHING in the thread, but dare I bring up the, "It's a movie and it looked cool to the director" logic?

Of course that could be the reason in the real world. But we don't care about the real world reason, we want an In Universe reason.

Xyex, you right when you bring up the fact that Goku wasn't as scared to fight Janemba - but to say that "Jenemba = Stronger than Base Gogeta otherwise he wouldn't have transformed into SSJ and would have just kicked his ass in base" is just wrong. There's no logic there. SSj Vegeta mopped the floor with android 19. Did Vegeta have to be SSj to do that? We don't know.

I can say, with 99.9% certainty, that yes, Vegeta had to be an SSJ for that fight. The energy 19 stole wasn't that significant (no panting from Vegeta, no signs that it was even enough to really bother him) and yet he knew from fighting 19 that the energy he'd lost put him weaker than 20. But, that's for another topic so...

(And, again, who are Super Buu 1 2 and 3?)

Super Buu = Evil Buu + Fat Buu
Super Buu 1.5 = Super Buu + Piccolo + Goten + Trunks
Super Buu 2 = Super Buu + Piccolo + Gotenks
Super Buu 3 = Super Buu + Piccolo + Goten + Trunks + Gohan

You keep saying that. But you, again, are not taking the word 'complete' the right way. The difference between dance fusion and potara fusion is like the difference between renting a movie and buying a movie. Buying it is 'more complete' because it stays around longer, but while it's around in either case there's no difference.

XD You're the one not taking the word complete correctly. I've NEVER heard complete even remotely refrenced in that situation. A complete fusion would mean that the bonds of the two being fused are sealed making them 1 complete person with no degradation to the fusion. The dance isn't this powerful, the bonds aren't this strong, and after a time they break down and result in a de-fusion. It's just that simple.

So, no character ever used a powered up form beyond what he needed to? No one? Not even, say, Vegetto? You said he was clearly stronger than Super Buu 3 in his base form, but Vegetto still transformed into a Super Saiyan.

I knew you'd bring this up. Vegetto didn't transform because he needed the power to win, he transfromed so that Buu would see absorbing him as the only means to win.

Well...Elder Kaioshin actually said that about the possible fusion of Goku and Gohan. The fact that it was Vegeta changes the truth of that statement.

Oh ya, he does... but doesn't he say something later about Goku and Vegeta making an even stronger fusion? Or is my memory just going wonky?

Originally, Vegetto transforms right away, and I don't believe he would have done so without having good reason to.

Freeing the others is pretty much the only reason, IMO, that he bothered. He so seriously outclassed him as an SSJ I find it hard to swallow that he wasn't at least even with him in base.

And even in the Anime, Boo tells Base Vegetto that "Despite your great strength, you are no match for my full power!" Vegetto transforms after this. So I guess he agreed with Boo.

That was his way of going "Nope, I don't think so." to show Buu that his only option left was to absorb him.

However, I do agree with the rest of what you said!

You know, the more we agree with each other, the more scared I get.

The fact that the fusions start off transformed already(sometimes.) always bugged me, especially in Movie 13. How the heck can Goten and Trunks be base form, fuse, and turn out SSJ3?

Transform upon full merger. I might be remembering the scene wrong, but I think I saw his hair growing while he was still glowing. It's like *boom, fusion formed* *boom, transformed* all in about .1 seconds.

But, I think, we've already established that the reason he appeared as a Super Saiyan immediatly upon the fusion is because he wanted to.

Of course he wanted to. He need to so that he'd have the power to beat Jenemba.

When Vegeto turned SSJ, he had sparks around his aura. Does this mean he quickly powered up to SSJ2?

Actually, it does, and he did.

._.

No. Now, again, this could be my memory going wonky... (Duo would know better than I) but I believe that Piccolo exhibited sparks around his aura after merging with Kami... so I guess that makes him an SSJ2 as well? The sparks / lightning to the auras is to denote power, not stage. It's become associated with SSJ2 because that's where it first appeared and, aside from SSJ3, where it is most prevelant.

[Duo]

The Lightning + Aura thing is a somewhat complex issue...

But anyway, lightning isn't just shown around Super Saiyan 2 warriors. Lightning has appeared -

- When Nappa first powered up to fight Piccolo, Gohan, Kuririn, and Tenshinhan.
- When Goku blocked Nappa's blast head on with nothing more that a Kiai.
- Around Great Ape Vegeta's mouth blast.
- Around the Reacoom Eraser Gun.
- Around Gohan's blast against 3rd Stage Freeza.
- Around #17's force field, as well as Cell's.
- Around Super Saiyan "Majin" Vegeta when he was shouting at Bobbidi. However, he was quite clearly not Super Saiyan 2.

So, paired with the Vegetto case, there are two times normal Super Saiyans have Lightning around them, and various other occasions. So really, you can't call someone a Super Saiyan Two unless they display it consistently, which is not Vegetto.

Sub-issue taken care of?

You know, the more we agree with each other, the more scared I get.

I wonder what will happen if we agreed on everything?

(Imagines people ice skating around hell)

I used an Anime quote too. I think that freaked Akira out pretty good.


Edit: Piccolo doesn't display lightning, but he does take on a "static aura", which is kind've similar.

[desirecampbell]

Super Buu = Evil Buu + Fat Buu
Super Buu 1.5 = Super Buu + Piccolo + Goten + Trunks
Super Buu 2 = Super Buu + Piccolo + Gotenks
Super Buu 3 = Super Buu + Piccolo + Goten + Trunks + Gohan

1.5? What? Why 1.5, 2, 3? Why not 2, 3, 4? Arrrgh! You'll rue the day you confuse Desire! *shakes fist*

XD You're the one not taking the word complete correctly. I've NEVER heard complete even remotely refrenced in that situation.

The elder Kai says that the potara fusion is a 'proper fusion' and is 'more complete'. He says nothing about it being 'stronger' than the other.

A complete fusion would mean that the bonds of the two being fused are sealed making them 1 complete person with no degradation to the fusion. The dance isn't this powerful, the bonds aren't this strong, and after a time they break down and result in a de-fusion. It's just that simple.

Eh? Yes, absolutely, a 'complete' fusion would mean that both warriors become one new warrior - but that seems to mean both types of fusion.
The dance fusion doesn't 'degrade'. If you're saying that the dance fusion splits after a set amount of time because it's not as 'strong' a fusion as the potara fusion, then you're saying that the dance fusion ends because the warrior's strength has degraded to the point he can't keep both bodies bonded together. But if this was the case we'd see the fused warrior get progressively weaker as the fusion went on, and the fact is that isn't the case. The fused warrior is just as strong right before he splits as he was when the fusion started.

To say that the dance fusion is 'less complete' because it degrades is fine. It does 'degrade', but it has nothing to do with strength. It seems to have something to do with the warrior's ki usage, but has more to do with a simple time limit.

Oh ya, he does... but doesn't he say something later about Goku and Vegeta making an even stronger fusion? Or is my memory just going wonky?

The elder Kai says that the fusion will be extra powerful because Goku and Vegeta are rivals. Now, it's unclear whether he ment that the fusion would be more powerful than other fusions because of their opposing mindsets, or if he ment that it'd just be a strong fusion because they were themselfs strong (and were that strong because they were rivals, and pushed themselves to become stronger).
But we do know he wasn't talking about the potara fusion in-particular.

[Onikage725]

The elder Kai says that the fusion will be extra powerful because Goku and Vegeta are rivals. Now, it's unclear whether he ment that the fusion would be more powerful than other fusions because of their opposing mindsets, or if he ment that it'd just be a strong fusion because they were themselfs strong (and were that strong because they were rivals, and pushed themselves to become stronger).
But we do know he wasn't talking about the potara fusion in-particular.

Mm, that's the point I often try to make. When he speaks on how powerful Vegetto is and why, this doesn't mean he's comparing him to a hypothetical Gogeta.

[Xyex]

Super Buu = Evil Buu + Fat Buu
Super Buu 1.5 = Super Buu + Piccolo + Goten + Trunks
Super Buu 2 = Super Buu + Piccolo + Gotenks
Super Buu 3 = Super Buu + Piccolo + Goten + Trunks + Gohan

1.5? What? Why 1.5, 2, 3? Why not 2, 3, 4? Arrrgh! You'll rue the day you confuse Desire! *shakes fist*

Because 1.5 occurs after 2 and before 3 but is weaker than 2 while stronger than 1. So they've been fan numbered in such a fasion as to keep them in order of power.

The elder Kai says that the potara fusion is a 'proper fusion' and is 'more complete'. He says nothing about it being 'stronger' than the other.

--

Eh? Yes, absolutely, a 'complete' fusion would mean that both warriors become one new warrior - but that seems to mean both types of fusion.
The dance fusion doesn't 'degrade'. If you're saying that the dance fusion splits after a set amount of time because it's not as 'strong' a fusion as the potara fusion, then you're saying that the dance fusion ends because the warrior's strength has degraded to the point he can't keep both bodies bonded together. But if this was the case we'd see the fused warrior get progressively weaker as the fusion went on, and the fact is that isn't the case. The fused warrior is just as strong right before he splits as he was when the fusion started.

To say that the dance fusion is 'less complete' because it degrades is fine. It does 'degrade', but it has nothing to do with strength. It seems to have something to do with the warrior's ki usage, but has more to do with a simple time limit.

-_-


._.


*sigh* Did I say that the fusion's physical strength degraded? No. Did I say that the fusion ended because of loss physical strength? No. I *AM* saying the fusion ends after a an ammount of time because the bonds that hold it together aren't as powerful as the ones that hold together a Potara fusion. The strength of the bonds does not come from the strength of the fusion, the strength of the fusion comes from the strength of the bonds. It's simple biology.

[desirecampbell]

Okay - let's try this again. Why do you think the Potara fusion is stronger than the dance fusion? Just a simple question. "Why?"

[Onikage725]

Okay - let's try this again. Why do you think the Potara fusion is stronger than the dance fusion? Just a simple question. "Why?"

I don't think there's evidence that it's "stronger." I think it's "better." More effective.

[Onikage725]

Because Vegeta was only equal to Goku at Ssj2 when under Bobbidi's possession. Without that, Vegeta's Ssj2 form is weaker than Ssj2 Goku's.

And Super Saiyan multipliers are a strange and mysterious subject when you get past Goku on Namek, so to assume that their bases are equal with absolutely no reasoning at all is foolhearty.

Well Babidi says that he's bringing out Vegeta's latent powers, and there isn't really any evidence that these would have "gone back to sleep" after he died. For breaking the control spell in the first place, he did that while alive. He was never controlled. The spell drew out what he'd supressed with his complacent attitude, but it never took control of him. It's possible these "latent powers" were the SSJ2 transformation itself. We aren't really given anything exact to go on for when Vegeta's first change was, but it isn't until Goku goes level 2 that Vegeta starts to get pissed off about their power difference. If that's the case, he certainly kept that transformation ability after the fact.

However, if he did indeed lose any benefit gained from that part of the story after death, there is still the possibility of post-Majin Zenkai. For one thing, he and Goku spent a good amount of time beating the crap out of each other, with energy being drawn off of them to power Majin Buu. However much damage they inflicted upon each other, it was enough to power up the Buu Sphere, and much faster than Babidi anticipated, so they were going at it pretty rough. They were pretty worn out by the end, and then Vegeta ate a senzu. Potential power up right there (hey if a nap on Namek after being simply being really tired would do the trick...). On top of that he died but had his body fully restored and granted to him. Would that not qualify as well? He survived a mortal injury, basically.

The only real evidence that Vegeta was in fact significantly weaker at base is the fact that SSJ2 Goku outperformed SSJ2 Vegeta in the Kid Buu fight, but one must take into account that the scene in question with Goku was filler. If we use non-canon sources, in movie 12 they fuse in their base forms without any power adjustment needed.

Ok, so obviously there could be some different interpetations, but I wouldn't say that there is "absolutely no reasoning."

[supersaiyanguru]

All excellent points. I think you have made the most sense out of everyone here today.