DragonBall Unknowns (Vol.1)

Duo · Post by **Duo** » Sun Sep 10, 2006 1:46 am

Anonymous Friend wrote:With regard to Cell's usage of Freeza's Death beam, who's to say that it's not a techinque but rather a special/natural ability in the lines of Cyclop's Optic blast or something.

It's a fairly basic Ki manipulation, but only Freeza makes use of it. And Toriyama-sensei wouldn't make it Freeza's with the thought it was an exclusively DNA engrained technique. Things like that are pointed out, and are never something like a type of Ki blast.

Akira · Post by **Akira** » Sun Sep 10, 2006 1:07 pm

I forget where exactly (Perhaps Duo remembers?) But Cell says that Trunks' DNA was not gathered at the Battle with Freeza and Kold because they already had enough Saiyan samples.

Also, Dr. Gero had already realized that Cell would not be completed anytime soon and had handed the task over to his computer to finish. It alone gathered the DNA samples from Freeza and Kold.

Finally, we must go on something Gero said to answer this question in full. Son asks Gero if he had been spying on them during thier battles in outer space. Gero states "No, all the required battle data had already been aquired by that point."

They were still out collecting new DNA samples when the occation came up, but Gero stopped watching recorded battle data at the first Battle between Son Goku and Vegeta on earth. That is where he states he had finalized his intell on Goku and that his continued power growth could be calculated from that point.

He obviously created a formula that calculated Goku's power growth from the 22nd Budokai up to his first battle with Vegeta, then estimated future power growth based on that rate of increase + Continued Kaioken enchancement over time.

That is why he had no idea about Super Saiyan. He probably actually had footage of it from a couple places, but was too busy otherwise with Android construction or other projects to bother looking at it. Figured in his mind, he already had Goku's potential figured out.

Olivier Hague · Post by **Olivier Hague** » Mon Sep 11, 2006 6:41 am

desirecampbell wrote:Goku's alien heritage is "touched on" durring the course of the series (if I recal correctly). Ten, on the other hand, is never even hinted at being an alien.

But then, the Daizenshû says he is descended from aliens. Why assume that's an "error"?

SaiyaMel wrote:Hasn't Mr Toriyama stated that Ten is human?

Do you have to be born on Earth to be "human"?
And even then, the Daizenshû (by the way, that would be the 7th one, if I remember correctly, kinoko) simply states that Tenshinhan descends from aliens, not that he wasn't born on Earth.

Godo wrote:If Tenshinhan is an alien, then Kuririn is too. Kuririn doesn't have a nose, and Tenshinhan has a third eye.

Nobody's arguing that Tenshinhan is an alien/descended from aliens because he has a third eye. I'm saying he is because the Daizenshû says so.
Does the Daizenshû say anything about Klilyn being descended from aliens? No.

Saying that he is an alien is like saying that Yamcha's scars is a part of an alien transformation.

Come on. It's nothing like that.

Mr.Piccolo wrote:people keep on insisting that Ten is an alien because supposedly the daizenshuu suggests it

It doesn't "suggest", it says so.

Duo wrote:it sounds like if it is in there, some random staffer was just being an idiot and no one cross-checked it or something.

And how would you know that's how it went, exactly?

Godo · Post by **Godo** » Mon Sep 11, 2006 7:58 am

All I am saying is that if we go by Toriyama and the base used to write Dragonball (the earlier part), Journey to the West, Tenshinhan's third eye is a sign of god powers, which is understandable as he at that point is the strongest enemy (as I have understood Toriyama has stated).
And then, I don't believe in that the Daizenshuu is flawless. It's made by normal people, there can be mistakes.
And going by the time Tenshinhan was introduced, there were no such tings as aliens wandering Earth, only humans, beasts, Kami and the demons (Piccolo and his offsprings). The alien part came in the beginning of DBZ and its hard to think that Toriyama already had thought of introducing aliens at that early point in Dragonball.
That's my opinion about the Tenshinhan issue and I don't expect other think as I do.
Have a nice day.

Olivier Hague · Post by **Olivier Hague** » Mon Sep 11, 2006 9:57 am

Godo wrote:All I am saying is that if we go by Toriyama and the base used to write Dragonball (the earlier part), Journey to the West, Tenshinhan's third eye is a sign of god powers, which is understandable as he at that point is the strongest enemy (as I have understood Toriyama has stated).

And I still don't see your point. You could say the same kind of thing about Gokû: Toriyama didn't give him a tail so that he'd be an alien, but because of the Journey to the West. And yet, he turned out to be an alien in the end.

I don't believe in that the Daizenshuu is flawless. It's made by normal people, there can be mistakes.

And again, what kind of "mistake" would that be? We're not talking about a typo, here.

going by the time Tenshinhan was introduced, there were no such tings as aliens wandering Earth, only humans, beasts, Kami and the demons (Piccolo and his offsprings). The alien part came in the beginning of DBZ and its hard to think that Toriyama already had thought of introducing aliens at that early point in Dragonball.

That's beside the point. Nobody's arguing that Tenshinhan was always meant to be an alien.

Godo · Post by **Godo** » Mon Sep 11, 2006 10:30 am

Olivier Hague wrote: And I still don't see your point. You could say the same kind of thing about Gokû: Toriyama didn't give him a tail so that he'd be an alien, but because of the Journey to the West. And yet, he turned out to be an alien in the end.

I don't believe in that the Daizenshuu is flawless. It's made by normal people, there can be mistakes.
Again, believe me, "Three eyed tribe"...doesn't that sound like a practical joke to you?

And again, what kind of "mistake" would that be? We're not talking about a typo, here.
Factual error.
going by the time Tenshinhan was introduced, there were no such tings as aliens wandering Earth, only humans, beasts, Kami and the demons (Piccolo and his offsprings). The alien part came in the beginning of DBZ and its hard to think that Toriyama already had thought of introducing aliens at that early point in Dragonball.
That's beside the point. Nobody's arguing that Tenshinhan was always meant to be an alien.
Precisely what I didn't say.
Where did they say in the manga that he was an alien? There is nothing (but his third eye, compare with no nose Krillin) saying that he is an alien. Only in the Daizenshuu. It just sounds like something someone put in there to be funny.

Olivier Hague · Post by **Olivier Hague** » Mon Sep 11, 2006 10:47 am

Godo wrote:"Three eyed tribe"...doesn't that sound like a practical joke to you?

Nope. Why should it?

Factual error.

You're assuming.
I guess you simply aren't familiar with the concept of "ura settei"...

Precisely what I didn't say.

Er... That's precisely what you were saying.
I quote: "its hard to think that Toriyama already had thought of introducing aliens at that early point in Dragonball."
And nobody's saying that he had thought of introducing aliens back then.
Hence: beside the point.

Where did they say in the manga that he was an alien?

Nowhere. So what? 'Doesn't mean it's not true.
The Daizenshû also list quite a few dates that are nowhere to be seen in the manga, for example. Does that mean they're wrong? Even when one of them (the day of the androids' apparition) actually ends up being used in the Kanzenban?

There is nothing (but his third eye, compare with no nose Krillin) saying that he is an alien. Only in the Daizenshuu.

Indeed. So I guess it's not "nothing".

It just sounds like something someone put in there to be funny.

Yeah, because there are lots of jokes like that, in the Daizenshû. That's just the kind of book they are.

MartianOddity · Post by **MartianOddity** » Tue Sep 12, 2006 4:47 am

"ura settei"... what in the world is that =)? Please explain a word or concept you think someone doesn't know, or don't mention it at all. It takes up more posts than nessecary to explain it later on =(.

Anyways, I don't understand why Tenshinhan would be an alien. I believe him belonging to an alien tribe is a factual error, since he's referred as a human throughout whole Dragonball and Z. Maybe he transformed into an alien or became declared one in GT, but I doubt that's the case.

Toriyama-sensei stated that Tenshinhan was indeed a human and that his third eye was a sign of him possessing god-like powers. Because of choosing the evil path, he wasn't able to develop that trait any further.
That's the official explanation from the creator of the series. His word should be definite in this case in my opinion, but it can be discussed. What a third-party group writes can't replace the former explanation unless Toriyama-sensei would accept it, so the question is if he did it or not, but that's beyond my knowledge.

As far as I know, at the end of Dragonball Z, the only aliens are Goku, Vegeta, Piccolo and Dende. The only semi-aliens are Gohan, Goten, Trunks, Pan and Bra. Among the rest there's an android that was a former human, and a magical being. Anyone else belong to the human, animal or human/animal groups.

I would like anyone who wants to comment this post to not divide it into several quotes since it would take much out of it's context and make a very good ground for quote wars.

EDIT: I get amazed how harsh people can be when their opinions and theories get critisized or challenged. Calm down, dammit. It's not like it's the end of the world. See it as a fun challenge instead and be nice to eachother. I mean, all you're actually doing is exchanging theories and learning more by doing that =).

Godo · Post by **Godo** » Tue Sep 12, 2006 7:36 am

Just answer this question y'all: Did Akira Toriyama write the Daizenshuu all by himself?

Olivier Hague · Post by **Olivier Hague** » Tue Sep 12, 2006 8:29 am

MartianOddity wrote:"ura settei"... what in the world is that =)? Please explain a word or concept you think someone doesn't know, or don't mention it at all.

Looking it up on Google, for example, might help.

Basically, "ura settei" are (often trivial) bits of background info that aren't widely known (or even unknown to all except for the author) because they're nowhere to be seen in the work itself. The kind of details that are sometimes revealed in interviews... or in guidebooks.

Thouser having been Ginew's rival, for example, could probably be referred to as an "ura settei": there was no way you could tell from the movie, and that bit of background was revealed along with Toriyama's sketch of the character in Weekly Jump back in the day, so it's not exactly common knowledge.

Anyways, I don't understand why Tenshinhan would be an alien.

1) I don't understand why you think he simply couldn't be, seeing how Gokû and Kami-Sama/Piccolo Daimaô are eventually revealed to be aliens.
2) The Daizenshû says that he descends from aliens. Now, that could mean a lot of things.

Toriyama-sensei stated that Tenshinhan was indeed a human

Again, what's your definition of "human"?
Do you have to be born on Earth to be human? Or does that simply make you an Earthling (that's the term used by the Saiyans)?
Also, are people born on Earth necessarily "human"? What about, say, the King of the World?

That's the official explanation from the creator of the series.

And how did Toriyama "officially explain" Gokû's tail? Did he draw it because Gokû was supposed to be revealed as a Saiyan, an alien, years later? Of course not. He drew it because of the Journey to the West.

Again, let's not confuse how characters were born:
1) in the author's mind
2) in the story

What a third-party group writes can't replace the former explanation

There was no former in-story explanation regarding Tenshinhan's third eye and such. So they didn't "replace" anything.
And "third-party group"... Come on, it's the Shûeisha, not perfect strangers. ^^;

What I don't get is that you don't even consider the possibility that Toriyama is the one who came up with that extra bit of background about Tenshinhan, and simply told them. That's entirely possible.

unless Toriyama-sensei would accept it the question is if he did it or not

Well, we're not talking about a fanzine, here. He supervised the thing.
Now, I'm not saying that means he read absolutely everything in the books (then again, I guess he finally had some free time for that, back then), but still... You're saying that as if he had absolutely nothing to do with them in the first place. ^^;

I would like anyone who wants to comment this post to not divide it into several quotes since it would take much out of it's context

Well, it's not like quotes are evil by definition. If you think I'm purposely using them to take things out of context and make you say things you never said, please tell me where.

Calm down, dammit.

I'm calm.

Olivier Hague · Post by **Olivier Hague** » Tue Sep 12, 2006 8:48 am

Whoops. Bad manip. Please delete.

Godo · Post by **Godo** » Tue Sep 12, 2006 8:48 am

Olivier Hague wrote:
Calm down, dammit.
I'm calm.

Phuullleeze, he was referring to everyone, not to you specifically. If you are calm, there is no need to answer that isn't it? =)

But I think I got my answer from your last post, Akira Toriyama didn't make the Daizenshuu all by himself. I couldn't imagine someone so busy being able to read every single page in the Daizenshuu (there are a lot of volumes as we all know). So that's why I don't really take the Daizenshuu as a Dragonball Bible, and that's why I just simply find it strange that Tien would be a decendant of aliens. If they had to write that stuff, where is the explenation of why they came to Earth? If the information was so important to be written, where is the rest of the information regarding the rest of his tribe, what they did and why? That's why I believe it was written as something not to be taken seriously, maybe by a single person or two. All the other aliens (at least the heroes) in Dragonball have detailed information. And is anyone sure that "alien" may be "immigrant" or something? Or is it "man from space" in japanese written?

Olivier Hague · Post by **Olivier Hague** » Tue Sep 12, 2006 9:08 am

Godo wrote:If you are calm, there is no need to answer that isn't it? =)

Er... Why not?

But I think I got my answer from your last post, Akira Toriyama didn't make the Daizenshuu all by himself.

Of course not. That's not his job.

I couldn't imagine someone so busy being able to read every single page in the Daizenshuu (there are a lot of volumes as we all know).

Again, he wasn't quite that busy anymore, at the time...

that's why I don't really take the Daizenshuu as a Dragonball Bible

OK, but there's a difference between not taking it as a "bible", and simply assuming that that new bit of background about Tenshinhan is utter BS.

What about, say, the world map featured in the Daizenshû? It's not in the manga, it's not in the anime... Does that mean we should just ignore these pages?

and that's why I just simply find it strange that Tenshinhan would be a decendant of aliens.

Eh. Why not? ^^;
(besides, that would explain why there were a few guys on Earth that were clearly above the rest... they were "oddities")

If they had to write that stuff, where is the explenation of why they came to Earth?

Er... Do you also want all of their names, listed alphabetically? As well as their entire genealogy? ^^;

If the information was so important to be written

Nobody said it was "important". Hell, the story was already over anyway...
And "so important to be written"? We're talking about guidebooks, here. If they only wrote about the capital stuff, they would be a lot thinner than they are. There's trivia.

All the other aliens (at least the heroes) in Dragonball have detailed information.

1) Well, up to a point...
2) The fact they were aliens actually factored in the story, so it's kinda logical you'd know more about them, really...

is anyone sure that "alien" may be "immigrant" or something? Or is it "man from space" in japanese written?

Extra-terrestrials, yes.

MartianOddity · Post by **MartianOddity** » Tue Sep 12, 2006 9:19 am

To answer your question(s): My definition of human is someone that is born on Earth with generations of humans bred in majority into the family tree. I understand your point of Tenshinhan descending from aliens. I'm sorry I didn't notice the connection before. As I said, we're exchanging knowledge now, and it's fun to do so as long as it's controlled and unprovoking.

The "calm down, dammit" part of my post, (the text after "EDIT:") wasn't directed completely to you, but also to Godo. The discussion was at that point, and is somewhat still, filled with heated words.

Well, I guess I have to rest my case since you've convinced me. If there's anything about this post please PM me about it.

Post by **desirecampbell** » Tue Sep 12, 2006 10:35 am

"Is Ten a descendant of extra-terrestrials?"

for:
-The Daizenshuu clearly state that he is descended from the "three-eyed tribe".

against:
-Nothing about Ten being an alien is ever mentioned in higher levels of canon.
-Ten is referred to as human several times in the manga.

The problem here is that the Daizenshuu are not perfect, and they're not written by the authour. The Daizenshuu are meant to expand on what is already known, but rarely is anything so far from expected given. Because of that, we question is validity. "Where did this information come from?" "Who wrote it?"

If the idea of Ten not being human was supported by anything in the series I'd believe it - but it just seems so... random.

Olivier Hague · Post by **Olivier Hague** » Tue Sep 12, 2006 11:17 am

MartianOddity wrote:To answer your question(s): My definition of human is someone that is born on Earth with generations of humans bred in majority into the family tree.

As for me...
Well, when Nappa and Vegeta, for example, talk about the people of Earth, they don't call them "humans", but "Earthlings". So I'd say that Saiyans are "humans" as well... just not "Earthlings".

Well, that would be the technical definition, of course... I seem to remember (?) Gokû claiming he was an Earthling because he was raised on Earth.

desirecampbell wrote:-Ten is referred to as human several times in the manga.

Well, see above... and below.

The Daizenshuu are meant to expand on what is already known, but rarely is anything so far from expected given.

I don't know, I don't think an alien ancestry is that unexpected, in a series like "Dragon Ball"...

Besides, it just says that he "descends" from aliens, which could mean all kind of things. For all we know, Tenshinhan didn't know anything about that and had absolutely no way to find out anyway.

Because of that, we question is validity. "Where did this information come from?" "Who wrote it?"

Why would they make up something like that on a whim? It's just a dozen of tiny kanji and kana. That's all there is. If the guy who wrote that simply wanted to include his "fanfiction" in the book, it's a surprisingly short one.
And how could it be a mere mistake when they go as far as to name the alien race?

From my point of view, that simply screams of "ura settei". It's not exactly uncommon (an example in "Dragon Ball" would be the whole "planet Plant" thing).

kinoko · Post by **kinoko** » Tue Sep 12, 2006 11:20 am

Are we debating Tenshinhan? Whoop! ^^

Up until recently, I've considered the Daizenshuu to be Dragon Ball "Bibles." But because I have a weird sense of canon, or purity, or something, the idea/fact that Toriyama did not write the guides by himself (while completely understandable; they are huge books!) has struck a blow to me..

For the most part I agree with desirecampbell, if the higher echelons of canon haven't said anything to the contrary that Tenshinhan is descended from extra-terrestrials. (And, afterall, Goku is an established alien, yet calls himself human. Does that add something to the debate? ...Or is it something on an individual character basis.)

I suppose I'll always consider Tenshinhan to be human; after 7 and a half years of shameless worship of the man, it's difficult to change. ^^;; But, still, I'd love to research all of the aspects - the Journey to the West story and the character after which Tenshinhan is modeled, as well as the possibility that he isn't *quite* *all* human. (and I really like your explanation, MartianOddity!)

Much love.

(And thanks, Olivier Hague, for answering my question about which Daizenshuu that piece of information in. ^^)

Olivier Hague · Post by **Olivier Hague** » Tue Sep 12, 2006 11:34 am

kinoko wrote:the idea/fact that Toriyama did not write the guides by himself (while completely understandable; they are huge books!)

Not just that: they're books. The guy is a mangaka. It really is another job.

Goku is an established alien, yet calls himself human.

Er... When does he do that? With the whole "human"/"Earthling" thing I mentioned above, I'm interested. ^_^;

(And thanks, Olivier Hague, for answering my question about which Daizenshuu that piece of information in. ^^)

You're welcome, but you should probably take it with a grain of salt, as I don't have the books right here.

kinoko · Post by **kinoko** » Tue Sep 12, 2006 11:47 am

Olivier Hague wrote: Not just that: they're books. The guy is a mangaka. It really is another job.

Er... When does he do that? With the whole "human"/"Earthling" thing I mentioned above, I'm interested. ^_^;

You're welcome, but you should probably take it with a grain of salt, as I don't have the books right here.

True that, though the books - the guides, whatever you call them - would generally be about something the mangaka enjoys, don't you think? ^^ (Or am I being naive here?) It depends on the author, because Takaya Natsuki of Fruits Basket fame, wrote her - considerable smaller - "fanbook" with such passion it seems - there's a lot of knowledge in her Furuba guide book that isn't explicitly stated in the actual manga, but *definitely* adds to the whole story. (It's an amazing manga! <-- Plug. XD)

About the Goku calling himself a human. I should have been more clear. I'm sorry. ^^;; I meant, he proudly states that he's an Earthling (which can be a totally different thing from "human" ...) and so proves it by defending the planet, and the people on it whom he loves, to the extreme. As for where in canon it is stated, I can't tell you specifically.. I would assume during the fight with Raditz, since that's when Goku's Saiyajin origins are revealed. Someone please correct me on this! ^^ Sorry, my knowledge/memory of (non-Tenshinhan) canon sucks, sometimes.

I can't wait to get my Daizenshuu 7! ^^

Olivier Hague · Post by **Olivier Hague** » Tue Sep 12, 2006 12:29 pm

kinoko wrote:True that, though the books - the guides, whatever you call them - would generally be about something the mangaka enjoys, don't you think? ^^ (Or am I being naive here?)

Well, yeah, but just because I enjoy something doesn't mean I can go ahead and write a book about it. I mean... It's a job. ^^;
Besides, mangaka work for publishers who have a bunch of employees that are simply more qualified for that kind of job (and cheaper, too, I guess). So... that's how it works out, generally.

It depends on the author, because Takaya Natsuki of Fruits Basket fame, wrote her - considerable smaller - "fanbook" with such passion it seems

Are you referring to this? It doesn't look like she actually wrote that book. It appears to be your regular guidebook, with some character profiles, some manga... and an interview of the author (which would be a weird thing to include if the whole book was entirely written by her in the first place, in my opinion).

About the Goku calling himself a human. I should have been more clear. I'm sorry. ^^;; I meant, he proudly states that he's an Earthling (which can be a totally different thing from "human" ...) and so proves it by defending the planet, and the people on it whom he loves, to the extreme.

Yeah, that's what I remembered. ^^;

Kanzenshuu

DragonBall Unknowns (Vol.1)

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