Discussion, generally of an in-universe nature, regarding any aspect of the franchise (including movies, spin-offs, etc.) such as: techniques, character relationships, internal back-history, its universe, and more.
Miracles wrote: Sat May 23, 2020 9:44 pmThe movies are the only canon because Toriyama wrote the entire scripts himself.
Maybe I'm missing something, but how can that work ? RF ends with Freeza dying, yet is alive in Broly due to the events of the TOP. A more logical way to look at things (which you may be and I missed it) is the movies being canon, alongside the scripts provided to Toei and Toyotaro for Super, which we'll probably never see.
Yes, I've stated that the movies and "Toriyama's original drafts" are the only canon. Since the anime and manga adapt from these.
So the only things that are canon are three movies broken up by a bunch of napkin notes that nobody can actually see? What's the point of that?
How 'bout we just say "it's all canon and whether you go with the anime or manga comes down to which one you like better?" More honest.
How about no one ever talks about "canon" ever again?
(I'm exaggerating, I just think the term has been too officiated these days - the concept was invented by Arthur Conan Doyle fans based on Biblical terminology and was never meant to be a statement on continuity. I think it's better to look at things as individual products as much as possible)
Maybe I'm missing something, but how can that work ? RF ends with Freeza dying, yet is alive in Broly due to the events of the TOP. A more logical way to look at things (which you may be and I missed it) is the movies being canon, alongside the scripts provided to Toei and Toyotaro for Super, which we'll probably never see.
Yes, I've stated that the movies and "Toriyama's original drafts" are the only canon. Since the anime and manga adapt from these.
So the only things that are canon are three movies broken up by a bunch of napkin notes that nobody can actually see? What's the point of that?
How 'bout we just say "it's all canon and whether you go with the anime or manga comes down to which one you like better?" More honest.
No, cause that goes against the very definition of canon. Which means authority, being Toriyama. Also, Toriyama came out and straight up said what he writes is Dragonball after having to rewrite TOEI's entire script for BoG since it wasn't representation of Dragonball.
Miracles wrote: Sat May 23, 2020 9:44 pmThe movies are the only canon because Toriyama wrote the entire scripts himself.
Maybe I'm missing something, but how can that work ? RF ends with Freeza dying, yet is alive in Broly due to the events of the TOP. A more logical way to look at things (which you may be and I missed it) is the movies being canon, alongside the scripts provided to Toei and Toyotaro for Super, which we'll probably never see.
Yes, I've stated that the movies and "Toriyama's original drafts" are the only canon. Since the anime and manga adapt from these.
Miracles wrote: Sat May 23, 2020 9:44 pm The movies are the only canon because Toriyama wrote the entire scripts himself. He didn't write the entire stories for the anime/manga. The anime and manga were adapted [by TOEI/Toyotaro] from Toriyama's "original drafts." UNLIKE the movies, whose scripts were written by Toriyama himself.
you don't have how to prove that ... because toei influences his ideas and original script gogeta, broly, ikari, legendary super saiyan, paragus and the appearance of tournament characters
all these characters and transformations are somehow important in the story that the author is forming in contribution
Doesn't take away from the fact that it's Toriyama's written story. Therefore the movies are the only canon.
the work of others does not matter?
so according to you ... the current star wars is also not canon because its creator does not participate
don't impose your own rules on a story that doesn't belong to you
Miracles wrote: Sun May 24, 2020 2:13 am
Yes, I've stated that the movies and "Toriyama's original drafts" are the only canon. Since the anime and manga adapt from these.
So the only things that are canon are three movies broken up by a bunch of napkin notes that nobody can actually see? What's the point of that?
How 'bout we just say "it's all canon and whether you go with the anime or manga comes down to which one you like better?" More honest.
No, cause that goes against the very definition of canon. Which means authority, being Toriyama. Also, Toriyama came out and straight up said what he writes is Dragonball after having to rewrite TOEI's entire script for BoG since it wasn't representation of Dragonball.
But there's no Toriyama equivalent for the U6, Future Trunks, ToP and Moro arcs. You have to go with the anime or manga for the former three, and just the manga for the latter. By your definition, there is no canon version of those (because again, those Toriyama drafts aren't publicly available), but they obviously had to happen. So, therefore they are.
Maybe I'm missing something, but how can that work ? RF ends with Freeza dying, yet is alive in Broly due to the events of the TOP. A more logical way to look at things (which you may be and I missed it) is the movies being canon, alongside the scripts provided to Toei and Toyotaro for Super, which we'll probably never see.
Yes, I've stated that the movies and "Toriyama's original drafts" are the only canon. Since the anime and manga adapt from these.
you don't have how to prove that ... because toei influences his ideas and original script gogeta, broly, ikari, legendary super saiyan, paragus and the appearance of tournament characters
all these characters and transformations are somehow important in the story that the author is forming in contribution
Doesn't take away from the fact that it's Toriyama's written story. Therefore the movies are the only canon.
the work of others does not matter?
so according to you ... the current star wars is also not canon because its creator does not participate
don't impose your own rules on a story that doesn't belong to you
I am using Toriyama's rules. They didn't write the story. Toriyama did.
So the only things that are canon are three movies broken up by a bunch of napkin notes that nobody can actually see? What's the point of that?
How 'bout we just say "it's all canon and whether you go with the anime or manga comes down to which one you like better?" More honest.
No, cause that goes against the very definition of canon. Which means authority, being Toriyama. Also, Toriyama came out and straight up said what he writes is Dragonball after having to rewrite TOEI's entire script for BoG since it wasn't representation of Dragonball.
But there's no Toriyama equivalent for the U6, Future Trunks, ToP and Moro arcs. You have to go with the anime or manga for the former three, and just the manga for the latter. By your definition, there is no canon version of those (because again, those Toriyama drafts aren't publicly available), but they obviously had to happen. So, therefore they are.
But the drafts are still the original story. They are the canon. TOEI/Toyotaro only adapt from them. Which make them continuity.
No, cause that goes against the very definition of canon. Which means authority, being Toriyama. Also, Toriyama came out and straight up said what he writes is Dragonball after having to rewrite TOEI's entire script for BoG since it wasn't representation of Dragonball.
But there's no Toriyama equivalent for the U6, Future Trunks, ToP and Moro arcs. You have to go with the anime or manga for the former three, and just the manga for the latter. By your definition, there is no canon version of those (because again, those Toriyama drafts aren't publicly available), but they obviously had to happen. So, therefore they are.
But the drafts are still the original story. They are the canon. TOEI/Toyotaro only adapt from them. Which make them continuity.
Those aren't stories, though. They're designed to be adapted. The anime and manga adaptations of those drafts are the ones approved by Toriyama to fill in those gaps, and they're the ones that count.
Miracles wrote: Sun May 24, 2020 2:13 am
Yes, I've stated that the movies and "Toriyama's original drafts" are the only canon. Since the anime and manga adapt from these.
Doesn't take away from the fact that it's Toriyama's written story. Therefore the movies are the only canon.
the work of others does not matter?
so according to you ... the current star wars is also not canon because its creator does not participate
don't impose your own rules on a story that doesn't belong to you
I am using Toriyama's rules. They didn't write the story. Toriyama did.
Where does Toriyama say that if he didn't write something, isn't it canon?
the work of others does not matter?
so according to you ... the current star wars is also not canon because its creator does not participate
don't impose your own rules on a story that doesn't belong to you
I am using Toriyama's rules. They didn't write the story. Toriyama did.
Where does Toriyama say that if he didn't write something, isn't it canon?
I posted the interviews in this thread showing where Toriyama rewrote TOEI's entire scripts because he said they were not representation of Dragonball.
Miracles wrote: Mon May 25, 2020 4:17 am
I am using Toriyama's rules. They didn't write the story. Toriyama did.
Where does Toriyama say that if he didn't write something, isn't it canon?
I posted the interviews in this thread showing where Toriyama rewrote TOEI's entire scripts because he said they were not representation of Dragonball.
Where does Toriyama say that if he didn't write something, isn't it canon?
I posted the interviews in this thread showing where Toriyama rewrote TOEI's entire scripts because he said they were not representation of Dragonball.
representation of Dragonball =/= canon
you are putting words in his mouth
No, Canon= authority.
What Toriyama writes IS Dragonball. That's why he rewrote TOEI's scripts because it WASN'T Dragonball.
Miracles wrote: Mon May 25, 2020 3:35 pm
I posted the interviews in this thread showing where Toriyama rewrote TOEI's entire scripts because he said they were not representation of Dragonball.
representation of Dragonball =/= canon
you are putting words in his mouth
No, Canon= authority.
What Toriyama writes IS Dragonball. That's why he rewrote TOEI's scripts because it WASN'T Dragonball.
Neko majin has events in the world of dragon ball and is written by toriyama but is not canon
dragon ball online has the author's participation but is not canon
this basically confirms Blue Kaiohken and Blue Evolution are in the manga. Or, if they aren't EXACTLY the same forms\techniques, they are similar enough to be the same for practical purposes.
I'm going to guess then Complete Blue is comparable to Anime Blue Kaiohken x10, and stacking Kaiohken on it would result into, basically, Anime Kaiohken x20
Meanwhile Anime Vegeta just skipped Complete Blue and went straight Evolution.
No, Canon= authority.
What Toriyama writes IS Dragonball. That's why he rewrote TOEI's scripts because it WASN'T Dragonball.
Neko majin has events in the world of dragon ball and is written by toriyama but is not canon
dragon ball online has the author's participation but is not canon
Participation is not the same as the author writing the entire story. Neko Majin is not Dragonball either.
this basically confirms Blue Kaiohken and Blue Evolution are in the manga. Or, if they aren't EXACTLY the same forms\techniques, they are similar enough to be the same for practical purposes.
I'm going to guess then Complete Blue is comparable to Anime Blue Kaiohken x10, and stacking Kaiohken on it would result into, basically, Anime Kaiohken x20
Meanwhile Anime Vegeta just skipped Complete Blue and went straight Evolution.
And none of those forms are in the Canon movies written by Toriyma. So they don't matter.
Also the drafts ARE canon since they are the author's original intent. They are published but modified by the adaptation and that makes the anime and manga's view of them non canon.
Miracles wrote: Tue May 26, 2020 2:16 am
And none of those forms are in the Canon movies written by Toriyma. So they don't matter.
Well, if you want to take only the movies as canon that's fine-. Make some sense
Also the drafts ARE canon since they are the author's original intent. They are published but modified by the adaptation and that makes the anime and manga's view of them non canon.
No, they aren't canon.
Original intent is not canon. Only PUBLISHED STUFF is canon: if it's not published then it doesn't matter: it's not published so how can one take it into consideration.
Miracles wrote: Tue May 26, 2020 2:16 am
And none of those forms are in the Canon movies written by Toriyma. So they don't matter.
Well, if you want to take only the movies as canon that's fine-. Make some sense
Also the drafts ARE canon since they are the author's original intent. They are published but modified by the adaptation and that makes the anime and manga's view of them non canon.
No, they aren't canon.
Original intent is not canon. Only PUBLISHED STUFF is canon: if it's not published then it doesn't matter: it's not published so how can one take it into consideration.
Because that's what TOEI/Toyotaro adapts from. Whatver the author writes IS canon ONLY. Period.
Miracles wrote: Mon May 11, 2020 6:02 pm
That's correct. The TV and manga aren't canon since they are only adapted from Toriyama's "original story draft." They are however "continuity" IE; connected. BoG and RoF are what Super stems from. The source material.
Miracles wrote: Sun May 10, 2020 10:13 pm
Incorrect. Toriyama wrote BoG, RoF and Broly. Nothing you posted changes the fact; what he pens, is the actual canon.
Miracles wrote: Tue May 12, 2020 4:06 pm
The editors didn't write the story nor draw what was agreed upon to be changed with Toriyama. Toriyama himself does the manual revisions. Therefore it's STILL his work, therefore canon.
Agree on that dbs manga and anime are not canon, but I would add the movies to this list; in the movies, unlike in DB manga, the final revisions and product is made by Toei, not Toriyama, and not just all the additions to the script to make it a movie, but also some changes and cuts. https://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations ... -toriyama/
We can live whit that the only canon is DB manga and maybe Toriyama's scripts and declarations, say that every official adaption of the script is canon, or use different criteria to decide on what to consider canon or “more canon”.
I personally trust more in Toyotarō to be more faithful to Toriyama's view, since he is a Dragon Ball and Toriyama fanboy, while the movie staff has more commercial worries, let alone the anime staff; so I consider canon the dbs manga, closely followed by the movies.
Revisions are totally based on Toriyama's story tho. Not TOEI's, in the movies.
pepd wrote: Fri May 22, 2020 8:31 pm
IDKM As you can read in that interview, the movies, the final products, are just not made by Toriyama in the same grade the original manga was made by him, so if you consider them canon, it has to be a gradual canon (1% or 99%), and the manga/anime would be the same type of canon, of course, with different grades depending on their fidelity to Toriyama's vision and his involvement.
They can't be gradual authority when Toriyama wrote the entire scripts, TOEI then turns it into a movie, Toriyama even checks those. It's Toriyama's entire dialogue. You even see the Broly director say they stayed wholly faithful to it. Despite cutting out some scenes. Toriyama said what he writes IS Dragonball, no one else.
Miracles wrote: Fri May 22, 2020 3:06 pm
No, Toriyama writes the entire scripts for the movie. TOEI has to turn that script into a movie.
Miracles wrote: Fri May 22, 2020 8:39 pm
The movies and Toriyama's "original drafts" that the anime/manga adapt from are canon.
Come on man, now you are just defending a point in denial. Following your canon definition, logic and reading the interviews, the conclusion is that the dbs canon is Toriyama's manga/anime““orignal drafts”” and movies scripts, not the movies.
Agree on that dbs manga and anime are not canon, but I would add the movies to this list; in the movies, unlike in DB manga, the final revisions and product is made by Toei, not Toriyama, and not just all the additions to the script to make it a movie, but also some changes and cuts. https://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations ... -toriyama/
We can live whit that the only canon is DB manga and maybe Toriyama's scripts and declarations, say that every official adaption of the script is canon, or use different criteria to decide on what to consider canon or “more canon”.
I personally trust more in Toyotarō to be more faithful to Toriyama's view, since he is a Dragon Ball and Toriyama fanboy, while the movie staff has more commercial worries, let alone the anime staff; so I consider canon the dbs manga, closely followed by the movies.
Revisions are totally based on Toriyama's story tho. Not TOEI's, in the movies.
pepd wrote: Fri May 22, 2020 8:31 pm
IDKM As you can read in that interview, the movies, the final products, are just not made by Toriyama in the same grade the original manga was made by him, so if you consider them canon, it has to be a gradual canon (1% or 99%), and the manga/anime would be the same type of canon, of course, with different grades depending on their fidelity to Toriyama's vision and his involvement.
They can't be gradual authority when Toriyama wrote the entire scripts, TOEI then turns it into a movie, Toriyama even checks those. It's Toriyama's entire dialogue. You even see the Broly director say they stayed wholly faithful to it. Despite cutting out some scenes. Toriyama said what he writes IS Dragonball, no one else.
Miracles wrote: Fri May 22, 2020 3:06 pm
No, Toriyama writes the entire scripts for the movie. TOEI has to turn that script into a movie.
Miracles wrote: Fri May 22, 2020 8:39 pm
The movies and Toriyama's "original drafts" that the anime/manga adapt from are canon.
Come on man, now you are just defending a point in denial. Following your canon definition, logic and reading the interviews, the conclusion is that the dbs canon is Toriyama's manga/anime““orignal drafts”” and movies scripts, not the movies.
Pay attention. What Toriyama pens is canon [authority], including the movies.
