Why has DB gone so crazy with new forms?

[JewyB]

3 Vs. 6.

Naruto:
Demon fox blood forms.
Sage mode.
Nine tails mode.

Goku:
Ssj1 (I consider the grade forms and Ssj2 as part of this form, just as I consider Naruto's 9 blood forms as one).
Ssj3
SsjG
SsjB (I include the Kaioken and Evolution Blue as part of this form)
MUI (I consider Omen as part of his base)
Ssj4

SSJ 3 would, again, count as jsut an extension of the SSJ form if you consider SSJ2 to be and narutos 9 tail fox forms to be. There is no way it wouldn't apply the same way. Same rule with SSJB on top of SSG. Otherwise you have to count Narutos sage modes combined with hive nine tails mode, because its literally the same thing. A new form with a new type of energy with an old form stacked on top of it.

And SSJ 4 isn't canon, so even at a push, Goku has 3 forms, and two of them are Z also. In fact, you only listed one super form, which is what the discussion is about.

[TobyS]

It's capitalism poisoning art because everything we do under capitalism is in some way coerced. But Ya'll ain't ready to hear that lesson

Toyo and Toriyama are sincere, the baseline of their plots are still 'real' art (I mean art made for 10 year old Japanese boys and 30 year old white boys with some kind of arrested development is still art)

Just the addition of forms is a deliberate "hey can you two do this while you are at it so we can make more money". As long as they can tell mostly the same story AT and T don't care enough to dispute it, they accept the reality they live in, why would they want to risk the book to stop selling, getting cancelled and the staff at Toei to get smaller xmas bonuses just to make a pointless stand about their art, which they themselves see as just a silly karate-idiots books for kids.

Edit: What helps me deal is this.

GoD - 1 new form.

Blue - 1 new form (E is just a variant, Rose is the same form but unique to a unique character which actually gives more depth to adding a new form not making it worse. Rose is gone because black is dead and Toriyama doesn't use E when he writes) stupid kaioken doesn't exist in the manga or movies.

UI - 1 new form, more of a technique, potential for non saiyans to eventually get (UIO is the same form just not finished imo and is probably gone now anyway.)

So to me there's 3 new "things" and within that I really am only bothered by that blue came so soon after red (and it's not saiyan god/super saiyan god)

Think of it that way and it's not so bad. Got 3 forms in 'Z' and 3 in Super.

[JulieYBM]

It's capitalism poisoning art because everything we do under capitalism is in some way coerced. But Ya'll ain't ready to hear that lesson

Toyo and Toriyama are sincere, the baseline of their plots are still 'real' art (I mean art made for 10 year old Japanese boys and 30 year old white boys with some kind of arrested development is still art)

Yeah, capitalism fucking sucks.

And also, excuse me, but thirty year old white-passing girls also have weird hang-ups about Dragon Ball!

[TobyS]

It's capitalism poisoning art because everything we do under capitalism is in some way coerced. But Ya'll ain't ready to hear that lesson

Toyo and Toriyama are sincere, the baseline of their plots are still 'real' art (I mean art made for 10 year old Japanese boys and 30 year old white boys with some kind of arrested development is still art)

Yeah, capitalism fucking sucks.

And also, excuse me, but thirty year old white-passing girls also have weird hang-ups about Dragon Ball!

Haha I felt I could only be self deprecating about my own demographic. I'm really not sure why I still like DB so much.
I loved marvel comics even more than DB but like the million books and dumb crossovers annoyed me but more like the "reed richards is useless trope" and the awkward logic that it's set in the 'real world' yet like these hereo's do nothing about say, Palestine, Global warming, or concentration camps....

Whereas in DB the Dragon team are literally selfish dickheads (as 100% proven starting from the stopping Gero vote) so there's actually no friction, it doesn't pretend to be anything else. That's why stuff like the senzu bean to Moro don't bother me, it's never been part of the premise that the MC's are logical or concerned with a utalitarian good.

[JulieYBM]

It's capitalism poisoning art because everything we do under capitalism is in some way coerced. But Ya'll ain't ready to hear that lesson

Toyo and Toriyama are sincere, the baseline of their plots are still 'real' art (I mean art made for 10 year old Japanese boys and 30 year old white boys with some kind of arrested development is still art)

Yeah, capitalism fucking sucks.

And also, excuse me, but thirty year old white-passing girls also have weird hang-ups about Dragon Ball!

Haha I felt I could only be self deprecating about my own demographic. I'm really not sure why I still like DB so much.
I loved marvel comics even more than DB but like the million books and dumb crossovers annoyed me but more like the "reed richards is useless trope" and the awkward logic that it's set in the 'real world' yet like these hereo's do nothing about say, Palestine, Global warming, or concentration camps....

Whereas in DB the Dragon team are literally selfish dickheads (as 100% proven starting from the stopping Gero vote) so there's actually no friction, it doesn't pretend to be anything else. That's why stuff like the senzu bean to Moro don't bother me, it's never been part of the premise that the MC's are logical or concerned with a utalitarian good.

Haha, yeah I was just shitposting to make fun of myself. :p

I agree with you, it really bothers me that AmeComi heroes live in the 'real world' but the writing is so chickenshit and won't tackle stories to make their readers angry and stand up for what's right. Heck, I'm working on a anti-military industrial complex Superman fan fic right now, as it were. I want to see literature drop this sort of chickenshit attitude toward stories. Abstraction and allegory has become too much of a crutch to writers, in my opinion.

[TobyS]

Yeah, capitalism fucking sucks.

And also, excuse me, but thirty year old white-passing girls also have weird hang-ups about Dragon Ball!

Haha I felt I could only be self deprecating about my own demographic. I'm really not sure why I still like DB so much.
I loved marvel comics even more than DB but like the million books and dumb crossovers annoyed me but more like the "reed richards is useless trope" and the awkward logic that it's set in the 'real world' yet like these hereo's do nothing about say, Palestine, Global warming, or concentration camps....

Whereas in DB the Dragon team are literally selfish dickheads (as 100% proven starting from the stopping Gero vote) so there's actually no friction, it doesn't pretend to be anything else. That's why stuff like the senzu bean to Moro don't bother me, it's never been part of the premise that the MC's are logical or concerned with a utalitarian good.

Haha, yeah I was just shitposting to make fun of myself. :p

I agree with you, it really bothers me that AmeComi heroes live in the 'real world' but the writing is so chickenshit and won't tackle stories to make their readers angry and stand up for what's right. Heck, I'm working on a anti-military industrial complex Superman fan fic right now, as it were. I want to see literature drop this sort of chickenshit attitude toward stories. Abstraction and allegory has become too much of a crutch to writers, in my opinion.

oh wow lemme know when that's done! Yeah they always cop out by saying any realty where they try to do a benevolent take over they become corrupt and fashy which is like... there's no reason that 'has' to happen.

[Matches Malone]

I agree with you, it really bothers me that AmeComi heroes live in the 'real world' but the writing is so chickenshit and won't tackle stories to make their readers angry and stand up for what's right.

Most people get into entertainment to not be angry, those two concepts don't work together. That's like saying you want to eat to get hungry.

[JewyB]

I agree with you, it really bothers me that AmeComi heroes live in the 'real world' but the writing is so chickenshit and won't tackle stories to make their readers angry and stand up for what's right.

Most people get into entertainment to not be angry, those two concepts don't work together. That's like saying you want to eat to get hungry.

Also, they do tackle larger issues, the stories just dont sell as well as the mainstream comic stories, for this very reason. People don't like to be preached to or emotionally manipulated in negative ways..

I wouldnt put a high percentage of people into the "I want m stories about gods in spandex to teach me morals" camp.

[theherodjl]

Also, they do tackle larger issues, the stories just dont sell as well as the mainstream comic stories, for this very reason. People don't like to be preached to or emotionally manipulated in negative ways..

I wouldnt put a high percentage of people into the "I want m stories about gods in spandex to teach me morals" camp.

And that's one reason why Marvel's comic sales are down. Pandering to a certain demographic doesn't lead to success in the world of entertainment.

[JewyB]

Also, they do tackle larger issues, the stories just dont sell as well as the mainstream comic stories, for this very reason. People don't like to be preached to or emotionally manipulated in negative ways..

I wouldnt put a high percentage of people into the "I want m stories about gods in spandex to teach me morals" camp.

And that's one reason why Marvel's comic sales are down. Pandering to a certain demographic doesn't lead to success in the world of entertainment.

Doesnt the success of the Marvel movies prove otherwise though?

I think pandering is fine if handled well, you can pander to what people like without giving them everything, but then, not giving them anything they like at all isn't exactly a surefire route to success. Any enertainment needs to pander in some way, its literally the point of entertainment.

Also i think the biggest issue with Marvel comics causing sales to be down is that people dont want to invest in 20 issues a week to follow ongoing crossover stories, as well as only telling the safe stories.

[theherodjl]

Doesnt the success of the Marvel movies prove otherwise though?

I think pandering is fine if handled well, you can pander to what people like without giving them everything, but then, not giving them anything they like at all isn't exactly a surefire route to success. Any enertainment needs to pander in some way, its literally the point of entertainment.

Also i think the biggest issue with Marvel comics causing sales to be down is that people dont want to invest in 20 issues a week to follow ongoing crossover stories, as well as only telling the safe stories.

The movies are a different beast altogether since they depict a simple, straightforward story with a summer blockbuster-charm that can appeal to everyone. The comics, however, are bogged down with such a long history along with so many characters that the average patron probably isn't going to understand the context of the storyright off the bat. They'd have to do some serious research into the comics which the average movie-goer likely isn't going to do.
Putting too much focus on a niche audience will only attract said audience and put off the ordinary reader.

[JewyB]

The movies are a different beast altogether since they depict a simple, straightforward story with a summer blockbuster-charm that can appeal to everyone. The comics, however, are bogged down with such a long history along with so many characters that the average patron probably isn't going to understand the context of the storyright off the bat. They'd have to do some serious research into the comics which the average movie-goer likely isn't going to do.
Putting too much focus on a niche audience will only attract said audience and put off the ordinary reader.

Ah sorry, this was me misunderstanding, i thought you were saying comics were struggling for being too mainstream, hence why i brought up the movies. Marvel still has its more niche titles, but they aren't published under the main Marvel logo for grouping reasons i'd guess?

But yeah i think we're on the same page, comics are alienating but its not because they're mainstream and try to please readers, thats probably the one thing keeping them afloat these days.

[JulieYBM]

I agree with you, it really bothers me that AmeComi heroes live in the 'real world' but the writing is so chickenshit and won't tackle stories to make their readers angry and stand up for what's right.

Most people get into entertainment to not be angry, those two concepts don't work together. That's like saying you want to eat to get hungry.

Also, they do tackle larger issues, the stories just dont sell as well as the mainstream comic stories, for this very reason. People don't like to be preached to or emotionally manipulated in negative ways..

I wouldnt put a high percentage of people into the "I want m stories about gods in spandex to teach me morals" camp.

Stories that are tucked away from the mainstream and also use decidedly soft language and imagery to make their point are not what I'm talking about.

Like, you can entertain and educate people and empower them.

Also, they do tackle larger issues, the stories just dont sell as well as the mainstream comic stories, for this very reason. People don't like to be preached to or emotionally manipulated in negative ways..

I wouldnt put a high percentage of people into the "I want m stories about gods in spandex to teach me morals" camp.

And that's one reason why Marvel's comic sales are down. Pandering to a certain demographic doesn't lead to success in the world of entertainment.

Pandering to marginalized people (who are traditionally excluded from media representation or otherwise portrayed poorly) is not the reason comics sales are down. Comics sales are down because of decades-old practices that have made AmeComi from DC and Marvel fucking impossible to get into. Japanese comics are doing so well in the US because they're easy to read, properly organized into volumes and also look appealing while containing themes that give young girls and boys a sense of empowerment, whether cishet or not.

Blaming the marginalized for their continued exclusion doesn't work because of shitty, half-hearted attempts being pushed for a year, shat on by the established bigoted cishet white male base and then promptly forgotten the corporations and the weird, cultish mentality of the editorial department to return to 'normalcy' is wrong.

oh wow lemme know when that's done! Yeah they always cop out by saying any realty where they try to do a benevolent take over they become corrupt and fashy which is like... there's no reason that 'has' to happen.

I mean, I'll probably never have the attention span to write it beyond the story outline but here's some of the insofar incomplete plot.

The movies are a different beast altogether since they depict a simple, straightforward story with a summer blockbuster-charm that can appeal to everyone. The comics, however, are bogged down with such a long history along with so many characters that the average patron probably isn't going to understand the context of the storyright off the bat. They'd have to do some serious research into the comics which the average movie-goer likely isn't going to do.
Putting too much focus on a niche audience will only attract said audience and put off the ordinary reader.

'Ordinary reader'? Nobody ordinary reads superhero comics with any sort of consistency. They're too hard to decipher what the hell to read.

What you're really getting at is that the AmeComi fan just hates minorities but even that cannot be entirely true because so many minorities read those very comics, too, they just aren't as loud about wanting change as the cishet white male fans are about wanting to exclude minorities.

Black Panther and Into the Spider-Verse have proven that there's a 'mainstream' audience for Black superheroes. There's a mainstream audience for minorities in general and if there 'is not' then it's the responsibility to force one into creation of cishet white men.





Anyway, when is Chi-Chi going to press her soft, long digits upon the supple, twinkish chest of Super Saiyan God Gokuu?

[precita]

I'm just impressed they managed to resist giving Gohan Super Saiyan Blue, or Trunks/Goten or Gotenks. They could have done another Super Saiyan bargain sale like in the Boo saga, but they managed to resist. Of course their lack of fight scenes/usage in Super is part of it, but that's besides the point.

[Lionel]

I'm just impressed they managed to resist giving Gohan Super Saiyan Blue, or Trunks/Goten or Gotenks. They could have done another Super Saiyan bargain sale like in the Boo saga, but they managed to resist. Of course their lack of fight scenes/usage in Super is part of it, but that's besides the point.

As if the Goku & Vegeta duopoly was a natural evolution of the original manga's sequence of events. Toriyama effectively made a hard U-turn in the Buu arc and decided to retread what he was familiar with instead of continuing to test the waters with something new. What dynamic we currently have has more or less been a carry over of that dynamic between the two. Recent arcs have attempted something with a bit of a initiative but it's slow coming and may not have much long term value.

I don't enjoy the transformations myself because they're hackneyed at this point. It's long since lost its novelty sometime back in the Buu arc, arguably even further back during the events surrounding Cell. What they do have has gone underutilised absent Goku but that's part and parcel ever since the Kaioken was the mainstay of Goku's strategy. Sad thing is that it'll likely continue on into the future with new forms and exclusive rights to them by one or two faces.

[ZodiacBeast]

Honestly, new transformations don't bother me that much...unless they were to actually get a new one every arc.

I think what should have been done is for each of the "major players" (Goku, Vegeta, Gohan, Piccolo...) to be able to utilize God Ki and give them distinct "God Forms", or perhaps even just have them use God Ki in their base forms without the need for a transformation (yeah right! ). Saiyans would have "Saiyan God", Namekians would have "Mystic Namekian", etc. Dunno what Frieza's race would get...Tyrant King form?

Buu could have...Skinny Buu. Or "wish back Kid Buu and eat him" form.

[Jiren The Alpha]

Toyo and Toriyama are sincere, the baseline of their plots are still 'real' art (I mean art made for 10 year old Japanese boys and 30 year old white boys with some kind of arrested development is still art)

And Black boys.

[precita]

The problem is Super took the problems that were already starting towards the end of DBZ (everyone getting Super Saiyan, SSJ3, Ultimate Gohan, fusions, etc)...and then just dialed everything up to 11.

Everyone was already insanely strong in the Boo arc, and we're now led to believe Goku/Vegeta are a billion times stronger than that yet when watching their actual battles with Zamasu/Black or in the TOP, nothing feels any different than back in DBZ. Aside from their blue hair, if their hair was colored yellow the actual fights wouldn't seem any different. Seeing Future Trunks fight alongside Blue Goku/Vegeta in that arc also felt odd because the characters were on a whole different level than he was.

They really should have left everyone around Boo saga strength aside from maybe Goku due to the Beerus connection. There really doesn't feel like much of a difference watching the fights.

[Kinokima]

It's capitalism poisoning art because everything we do under capitalism is in some way coerced. But Ya'll ain't ready to hear that lesson

Toyo and Toriyama are sincere, the baseline of their plots are still 'real' art (I mean art made for 10 year old Japanese boys and 30 year old white boys with some kind of arrested development is still art)

Yeah, capitalism fucking sucks.

And also, excuse me, but thirty year old white-passing girls also have weird hang-ups about Dragon Ball!

Also a 30 year old something woman. lol

[BWri]

They really should have left everyone around Boo saga strength aside from maybe Goku due to the Beerus connection. There really doesn't feel like much of a difference watching the fights.

This is the secret I'm really wanting them to realize. They don't need to keep drastically scaling up the power to keep things interesting. At this point, the Z fighters are all masters. Everyone should instead be refining their skills and techniques. The show can actually evolve if it wants and it'll be better for it.

Bleach, Naruto and One piece has a lot of forms but for some reason Dragon Ball is the one people make fun of.

Because Dragon Ball has way more.

Even if the other shows have more forms, the truth of the matter is those forms vary in design a lot more than Dragon Ball's hair recolors. People generally don't have a problem with the more unique looking SSJ designs of the series. That's a big part of why I don't like the new forms. If the hair coloring was at least explained or had a reason other than to make it different from SSJ then I might like it more. The aura and eye color changes are cool, if they just stuck with that and made the effect more and more intense as they got stronger that would be rad but more or even less could have been done with the hair to make these forms less ... plastic looking, you know, like toys.