Accuracy of the Dragonbox colors?

sbk · Post by **sbk** » Wed Mar 18, 2009 8:25 pm

I prefer the animax version too

MajinVejitaXV · Post by **MajinVejitaXV** » Wed Mar 18, 2009 8:47 pm

TheMajinRedComet wrote:Is it wrong to think that the broadcast version looks better? Those Dragonbox images of Piccolo seem way too bright, but maybe I am just more accustomed to the darker green Piccolo from that part of the series.

It's not wrong at all. There's no real argument that can be made about liking a certain color palette more. The question is which of these colors best represents the original animation. And honestly, I don't think we've seen an accurate representation of the original broadcast version either, as all we've seen are VHS copies that had degraded and DivX copies that obviously have have filtering applied.

Anyway, I've done my homework and am compiling my reply, but I'm doing it a bit differently than normal. I should have it up tomorrow night, maybe tonight or I shoot through it.

-Corey

ect5150 · Post by **ect5150** » Thu Mar 19, 2009 10:07 pm

Guys, I'm late to the argument, but I can point out a few flaws in a few arguments here.

1) Some of the DVD screen shots are not being done properly. DVDs do not carry the full luma range as a computer monitor, so you need to adjust the colors on those screen shots from DVDs to adjust for this fact (I noticed a few screen shots had not had this done... I'll try to post a comparison in a minute).

Since we are talking about colors... this will bias any conclusions you draw from screen shots and scans of cel animation.

2) The green sky in the Vegeta fight has basically been de-bunked in the past. It is supposed to be green. Why can we say this? It is a popular fight, and it has been shown in flashbacks at several points in the series (even in GT!). In all of those flashbacks, the sky is green (someone once posted screenshots from GT showing the flashback from the FUNI singles, and it was green even then).

Basically the transfer process has altered some of the colors. The newer eps (with presumably a better transfer) still show green sky. The DBOX should benefit from a newer transfer process as well, where as the older eps still being airs are most likely from older masters that have not expierenced this. Aside from the "time machine" argument, that particular scene shouldn't really be used as a basis to make decisions upon when there is more evidence to suggest it actually should be green (unless you want to make the argument that the flash backs have the wrong color... but the flashbacks have appeared more than once... GT and the Burdock special come to my mind first).

EDIT: One other piece of info to point out... I was trying to find the shot of Cell posted from the animation cel earlier. Its from episode 159 (past the commercials)... but I cannot find a single frame that has the 'energy blast' missing... the scene is where Cell is catching No. 18's Ki blasts as she trys to fight Cell off. I once read that older films achieve those 'light' effects by over-exposing certain areas of the film. If this is the case, I'm guessing there is no version of the film that accurately represents what was on the animation cels.

SSj_Rambo · Post by **SSj_Rambo** » Thu Mar 19, 2009 11:38 pm

Most of the stuff in this thread is flying right over my head, but I had one question that doesn't seem to have been brought up yet.

Would taking screenshots with VirutalDub make any difference in the colors seen when compared to screenshots taken with, say PowerDVD?

DBW · Post by **DBW** » Fri Mar 20, 2009 1:43 am

ect5150 wrote:I once read that older films achieve those 'light' effects by over-exposing certain areas of the film. If this is the case, I'm guessing there is no version of the film that accurately represents what was on the animation cels.

Of course, and just the lighting/back-lighting in general may well produce differing colors. The number of cel layers will also cause slightly altered colors. In fact, most every effect would have been done in the photography and editing phase, and there are countless little tricks and techniques that they used to use.

This is, more or less, why I believe the original film is the best source. I simply can't accept taking a stack of 5 or 6 cels, and basing the coloring of an entire scene/episode/series off of that. The photography process for traditional animation is not always as simple as just taking pictures of the cels with a camera. However, I can still understand and accept kei17's point of view on this.

ultimateemail5000 · Post by **ultimateemail5000** » Fri Mar 20, 2009 10:08 am

Everything I ever said about the Dragon Boxes, I admit I was completely wrong. I just got movie 15 the other day, I mean I haven't seen it uncut, it just came out, so I ordered it. The only way I could play it was to burn it, since I dont have a region free player, but even using burned dvd on the highest quality, it looked so damn good. Not to bash Funi, but it possibly could have been better then their blu-ray sets. I'd say trust these sets with whatever reason, if I had the cash I'd buy more of the singles.

ect5150 · Post by **ect5150** » Fri Mar 20, 2009 11:39 am

DBW wrote:This is, more or less, why I believe the original film is the best source. I simply can't accept taking a stack of 5 or 6 cels, and basing the coloring of an entire scene/episode/series off of that. The photography process for traditional animation is not always as simple as just taking pictures of the cels with a camera. However, I can still understand and accept kei17's point of view on this.

I think I agree here as well. The only argument that might surpass this may be to base colors from the colored versions of the manga?

ultimateemail5000 wrote:Not to bash Funi, but it possibly could have been better then their blu-ray sets. I'd say trust these sets with whatever reason, if I had the cash I'd buy more of the singles.

I'm not sure, but I think Corey can speak to this. I know he owns the DBoxes and I think he has one of the BluRays. I thought the general assessment from the BluRays is they were still DVR's (although the newsest season sets seems to have stopped some of that, I don't know about the movie BluRays).

YouTube · Post by **Hujio** » Fri Mar 20, 2009 12:24 pm

ultimateemail5000 wrote:Everything I ever said about the Dragon Boxes, I admit I was completely wrong. I just got movie 15 the other day, I mean I haven't seen it uncut, it just came out, so I ordered it. ...

I assume you're referring to DragonBall Movie 1 (single vol. #15), and not DragonBall Z Movie 12 (single vol. #12), right? I knew Toei's numbering system on the movie singles would cause problems.

I know personally, that when I watch the movies on my HDTV, I often forget they're not Bluray. The transfer is just amazing! It's by the far the best of all the Dragon Boxes when viewed on an HDTV.

ect5150 · Post by **ect5150** » Fri Mar 20, 2009 6:13 pm

Hujio wrote:I know personally, that when I watch the movies on my HDTV, I often forget they're not Bluray. The transfer is just amazing! It's by the far the best of all the Dragon Boxes when viewed on an HDTV.

I can vouch for this statement. I think it has to do with the films being on a better resolution film (16 mm versus 32mm for the movies?). But the transfer is fantastic!

I've posted this before, but you can get in an idea of what we mean:

Click for the larger image.

That's what they look like with my own subtitles added to the DVD, reburned to a CD-R (in full quality). Taken with a good digital camera on a 48" HDTV (upscaling DVD player to 1080P)

Also, I may have to retract my statement about the luminance with the previous screenshots. I just got a new flat screen monitor, and I think I have my settings wrong (upgraded from an old CRT to this... it rocks!)

As to whether or not VirualDub or PowerDVd or th like adjust for it... I'm not certain. I've always corrected it with my player of choice or settings on the video card, never really done it for screenshots. I'd have to investigate. And to be honest, with this new monitor I would have to do more tests to verify this than I want to do on a Friday night.

DBW · Post by **DBW** » Fri Mar 20, 2009 9:11 pm

ultimateemail5000 wrote:Everything I ever said about the Dragon Boxes, I admit I was completely wrong.

Screen shots don't do anything justice, blah blah blah.

ect5150 wrote:The only argument that might surpass this may be to base colors from the colored versions of the manga?

In that case then I think we all lose. The manga had some...interesting color choices.

Hujio wrote:I know personally, that when I watch the movies on my HDTV, I often forget they're not Bluray. The transfer is just amazing! It's by the far the best of all the Dragon Boxes when viewed on an HDTV.

Yeah, they're pretty damn nice. I usually upscale the movies to 1080p, and the TV series to 720p. I still wouldn't quite say they're on the level of Bluray (referring to Sleeping Beauty and Pinocchio here, not FUNi's stuff), but yeah, the movies hold up extremly well on HDTVs.

jjgp1112 · Post by **jjgp1112** » Sat Mar 21, 2009 1:15 am

The once again counter the "it's an aged master on ANIMAX" argument: Most TV shows come from a tape master, which they keep them in so the quality doesn't degrade, or at least I think. When I watch reruns of shows from 10 years ago, they look exactly like how they did when they originally aired. No film damage, or anything of the sort.

ultimateemail5000 · Post by **ultimateemail5000** » Sat Mar 21, 2009 7:42 am

Hujio wrote:
ultimateemail5000 wrote:Everything I ever said about the Dragon Boxes, I admit I was completely wrong. I just got movie 15 the other day, I mean I haven't seen it uncut, it just came out, so I ordered it. ...
I assume you're referring to DragonBall Movie 1 (single vol. #15), and not DragonBall Z Movie 12 (single vol. #12), right? I knew Toei's numbering system on the movie singles would cause problems.
Yeah, I meant to say movie 1. I don't understand why Toei would start releasing DBZ movies first, and then move to DB. Maybe they are starting to think like Funi, they already released their own movies out of order, cropped their series for HD, what could be next?

DBW wrote:Screen shots don't do anything justice, blah blah blah.
Some people said that they remastered the screen shots to make it look like the DVD. I was to blinded and arrogant to see the truth, but now I see. Does the series look the same as the movies do, or are there quality differences between the two?

DBW · Post by **DBW** » Sat Mar 21, 2009 8:19 am

ultimateemail5000 wrote:Does the series look the same as the movies do, or are there quality differences between the two?

Not quite the same, but it still looks really good. I'd say they're both around the same level quality-wise. The audio is the only area where the difference is very noticeable. I'd say go ahead and just pick up the first volume of Dragon Ball if you've got a bit of extra cash lying around. Really funny episodes, which aren't available in North America yet (from what I recall), and it'll give you an idea of what kind of quality you'll be getting with the rest of the series.

jjgp1112 wrote:Most TV shows come from a tape master, which they keep them in so the quality doesn't degrade, or at least I think.

The issue (for me at least) isn't the degradation of the broadcast master, but rather the process by which we arrived at this master. It's never used as a gauging point because we don't know what happened during the transfer from reel to reel to reel and eventually onto the tapes.

ultimateemail5000 · Post by **ultimateemail5000** » Sat Mar 21, 2009 8:29 am

DBW wrote:
ultimateemail5000 wrote:Does the series look the same as the movies do, or are there quality differences between the two?
Not quite the same, but it still looks really good. I'd say they're both around the same level quality-wise. The audio is the only area where the difference is very noticeable. I'd say go ahead and just pick up the first volume of Dragon Ball if you've got a bit of extra cash lying around. Really funny episodes, which aren't available in North America yet (from what I recall), and it'll give you an idea of what kind of quality you'll be getting with the rest of the series.

I actually have the madman set of the first 13 episodes, they are indeed very funny. I even photo shopped the sleeve to match with my Funi releases.

But if anything I'd pick up the VOL. of Son fighting Freeza, or Vegeta. I really wouldn't mind just having the entire Z series, so I can make my own DVD's using Funi's orange brick dub, and DBOX footage. But with Kai on the way, I'll just wait for Funi to release that on blu-ray.

EricM · Post by **EricM** » Sun Mar 22, 2009 3:28 pm

Maybe a little off topic, but does anyone know what resolution the DBOX digital masters are? Were they created at 1080p/2K or higher, and then down-rezed to 480p for DVD? Or maybe created from a HDCAM-SR master? Or something else?

ect5150 · Post by **ect5150** » Sun Mar 22, 2009 5:29 pm

EricM wrote:Maybe a little off topic, but does anyone know what resolution the DBOX digital masters are? Were they created at 1080p/2K or higher, and then down-rezed to 480p for DVD? Or maybe created from a HDCAM-SR master? Or something else?

I thought this was always unknown. Someone else might want to chime in though, but I have seen this question more than once...

SSj_Rambo · Post by **SSj_Rambo** » Sun Mar 22, 2009 5:41 pm

ect5150 wrote:
EricM wrote:Maybe a little off topic, but does anyone know what resolution the DBOX digital masters are? Were they created at 1080p/2K or higher, and then down-rezed to 480p for DVD? Or maybe created from a HDCAM-SR master? Or something else?
I thought this was always unknown. Someone else might want to chime in though, but I have seen this question more than once...

I'm pretty sure it was stated on the podcast that the telecine masters were not scanned at 1080p, but I don't think they said exactly what resolution they were scanned at.

kei17 · Post by **kei17** » Tue Mar 24, 2009 10:49 am

Actually, I sent an e-mail about this issue to Toei Animation last week.
I have received their reply today.

Toei Animation wrote:○○様

平素より格別のご愛顧を賜り、誠にありがとうございます。この度、お問い合わせいただきました件についてお答え致します。
作品マスターフィルムですが経年劣化などにより、残念ながら変化しております。弊社では多くのマスターフィルムに対し、
様々な種類の保管や修復作業を行なっておりますが、全てのマスターを均一規準で改変するには至っておりません。
今後とも、進化するデジタル技術に伴うフィルム修復の方法や、映像・画質の調整方法を採用し、
皆様にご満足いただける作品をお届けしたいと考えております。今後とも、東映アニメーション作品を、何卒宜しくお願します。
お問い合わせ誠にありがとうございました。

東映アニメーション

Translation:

To Mr.xx:

We would like to express my thanks for your loyal patronage. Let us answer your question. Regarding the master films, unfortunately, they have changed in quality. Though we have done many ways to store and fix them, we have not been doing enough to fix the all master films in even quality. We try to employ many methods to fix films and adjust footage/image quality being evolved with digital technology to bring you our products that will satisfy you. We look forward to your continued patronage in the future. Thank you for your inquiry.

Toei Animation

sangofe · Post by **sangofe** » Tue Mar 24, 2009 11:40 am

Interesting e-mail from Toei, Kei.

ect5150 · Post by **ect5150** » Tue Mar 24, 2009 1:57 pm

kei17 wrote:
Toei Animation wrote:○○様

平素より格別のご愛顧を賜り、誠にありがとうございます。この度、お問い合わせいただきました件についてお答え致します。
作品マスターフィルムですが経年劣化などにより、残念ながら変化しております。弊社では多くのマスターフィルムに対し、
様々な種類の保管や修復作業を行なっておりますが、全てのマスターを均一規準で改変するには至っておりません。
今後とも、進化するデジタル技術に伴うフィルム修復の方法や、映像・画質の調整方法を採用し、
皆様にご満足いただける作品をお届けしたいと考えております。今後とも、東映アニメーション作品を、何卒宜しくお願します。
お問い合わせ誠にありがとうございました。

東映アニメーション
Translation:

To Mr.xx:

We would like to express my thanks for your loyal patronage. Let us answer your question. Regarding the master films, unfortunately, they have changed in quality. Though we have done many ways to store and fix them, we have not been doing enough editing the all master films in the even quality. We try to employ many methods to fix films and adjust footage/image quality being evolved with digital technology to bring you our products that will satisfy you. We look forward to your continued patronage in the future. Thank you for your inquiry.

Toei Animation

Kei17, that is freaking awesome. I wouldn't have thought we'd get a meaningful reply like this (seems like FUNI sometimes gave the run-around... but not always).

Can anyone give a better translation for some of that? What exactly does "we have not been doing enough editing the all master films in the even quality" mean?

Kanzenshuu

Accuracy of the Dragonbox colors?

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