Who's ultimately to blame for Cell's completion?

Velasa · Post by **Velasa** » Thu Sep 03, 2009 6:22 pm

Please pardon me if I say something stupid, I only watched the beginning of Androids/Cell in the dub ages ago and I'm a little loose on the details.

As for Gero though, something just occurred to me on case of his innocence. Hasn't the guy been building killer robots/killer robot armies for a few decades by the time 17 and 18 are even being developed? I know Son would still give him a chance because he's a moron in that field, but Gero... isn't exactly innocent before those two particular androids, right?

BlueSky · Post by **Kaboom** » Thu Sep 03, 2009 6:25 pm

Yes, Gero's been building Androids since back in the DragonBall days. He allegedly built #8, too, though DragonBall attributes that to a Dr. Frappe. Perhaps Frappe was his assistant.

caejones · Post by **caejones** » Thu Sep 03, 2009 6:36 pm

SSj Kaboom wrote:Yes, Gero's been building Androids since back in the DragonBall days. He allegedly built #8, too, though DragonBall attributes that to a Dr. Frappe. Perhaps Frappe was his assistant.

I remember the dub agreeing with that bit of inconsistency, but then I watched said episode the other day, and loh and behold, the error is nonexistent in the dub.

Dr. "Flap" is just an antisocial scientist who has been hiding from the RedRibbon army that S'no just happens to k'now...

Amigo Ten · Post by **Amigo Ten** » Thu Sep 03, 2009 6:40 pm

rereboy wrote:However, when he fought Cell, he honestly didn`t believe that Cell was going to surpass him once he reached his perfect state. He just wanted a better challenge. He acted just like Goku did when Freeza was powering up to 100%. He was just a little more cocky than Goku was. He wanted the challenge. However 100% Freeza didn`t surpass SSJ Goku. But perfect Cell surpassed USSJ Vegeta. Its that simple.

Goku knew how strong Freeza was though, since Freeza was kind enough to give it to him in percentages. Goku was more than twice the power of Freeza at 50% and he knew it.

And while it is in character for Vegeta to do what he did, it doesn't make it any less an act of stupidity.

rereboy · Post by **rereboy** » Thu Sep 03, 2009 6:47 pm

Amigo Ten wrote:
rereboy wrote:However, when he fought Cell, he honestly didn`t believe that Cell was going to surpass him once he reached his perfect state. He just wanted a better challenge. He acted just like Goku did when Freeza was powering up to 100%. He was just a little more cocky than Goku was. He wanted the challenge. However 100% Freeza didn`t surpass SSJ Goku. But perfect Cell surpassed USSJ Vegeta. Its that simple.
Goku knew how strong Freeza was though, since Freeza was kind enough to give it to him in percentages. Goku was more than twice the power of Freeza at 50% and he knew it.

And while it is in character for Vegeta to do what he did, it doesn't make it any less an act of stupidity.

You think Goku knows percentages? He never had math. Probably he just understood that Freeza could still be stronger.

And even if he understood percentages I very much doubt he could think something like "well my power now is exactly 2.3 times stronger than Freeza, so even if I consider his present power to be 70% of the total, that would still not be enough to defeat me".
I very much doubt that Goku could feel and know to that degree how much power Freeza has compared to his own and translate that to mathematical language to come to the conclusion that he would still win.

Amigo Ten · Post by **Amigo Ten** » Thu Sep 03, 2009 6:53 pm

All he has to do is realise he's more than twice as strong as Freeza was up until then. He knows how strong he is, and he knows how strong Freeza is at half power. It's not complicated, even for Goku.

caejones · Post by **caejones** » Thu Sep 03, 2009 6:57 pm

Hmm. Makes me wonder, though...
What possible motivation would Vegeta have for stopping Cell's completion?
Come to think of it, what motives do anyone have for that?

Gohan: - Keep the world savable!
Tien: Ditto
Yamcha: Ditto
Chaozu: Ditto
Krillin: A bit of ditto, and a bit of keeping #18 around. (Yeah, that worked out real well, didn't it?)
Trunks: Save da futurez~! Or just this timeline... but be sure not to hurt daddy's pride!
Goku: Eh, save the world, but d'n really care...
Piccolo: Cell's in the way of my plans for world domination! ... ... Really! ... *sigh* so Gohan will still come visit me...
Vegeta: ?
Vegeta is literally in it just for the fighting. The only person he saved before Cell shot Trunks was Goku... so he could fight him later. I mean, sure, we all know Vegeta wanted the challenge, and that's why he let Cell get #18. But if Cell had been significantly weaker and was just ninjaing around destroying cities, would Vegeta have done a thing about it?
While Piccolo failed to keep his villain persona throughout this arc, Vegeta did. Vegeta was still a villain, for all intents and purposes; he'd've gone after everyone else once Cell was gone, if all that character development hadn't happened at the Cell Games.

Had Darth Freeza popped up and trapped Vegeta and Trunks in pokeballs, then fought Cell to test his amazing new powers, and likewise let Cell absorb #18, would it have been a stupid move on his part?

I feel kinda assish for throwing this in, but I'm a bit curious given my ramblings:
Before the dub got here, how did those with knowledge of this arc from the Japanese version view it? Just wondering...

rereboy · Post by **rereboy** » Thu Sep 03, 2009 6:58 pm

FormallyKnownAsPrince wrote:
rereboy wrote:
FormallyKnownAsPrince wrote:
Of course... the whole saga could have been avoided had any one of them just killed Gero before he even created the androids. I have a hard time enjoying this arc because the logic is so flawed. The story just doesn't flow like the Saiyan and Namek arcs :/
You think its OK to kill someone just because of what they might do?

For example, you think its OK to kill 9 year old Hitler if you could do it?

Its not that simple (morally) to do.

eh... you make some very good points, but again, I think at the end of the day it's about the greater good. If one knew somebody was planning to do something horrible- something that would take many, many innocent lives (in Gero's case, potentially destroy the world)- you're saying it would be wrong to reprimand them simply because the act hadn't been committed yet? The intention is still there. Wouldn't it also be wrong, on some level, to just let something horrible like that happen, when you had the knowledge and ability to prevent it?

Besides, they wouldn't have to kill Gero to keep him from creating the androids... and who said he would be a nine-year-old kid?

Yes, but even I would kill eight year old Hitler if that was the only choice to prevent the killings.

But that wouldn`t be the only choice if we could go back to that time would it? We could do a great number of things to prevent it.

As for Dragon Ball, was killing Dr. Gero the only way to stop the androids? No it wasn`t was it?

And that`s my point. They tried the alternative, without having to kill him for things he hadn`t done yet, but still trying to stop him.

And if we could go back to the time when Hitler was 8 years old we could explore alternatives instead of killing a eight year old. Its the same thing. There is greater risk, yes, but perhaps morally its more correct.

Amigo Ten wrote:All he has to do is realise he's more than twice as strong as Freeza was up until then. He knows how strong he is, and he knows how strong Freeza is at half power. It's not complicated, even for Goku.

Perhaps not... He had just transformed into a SSJ. Did he really know exactly how strong he was?

And Freeza was fighting seriously with him for the first time. Did he really know exactly how strong he was at that point?

Feeling Ki its not exact science like for example a scouter. It just gives a vague notion of who is stronger based on how much ki comes from them.

In my opinion, knowing for sure that someone is more than twice as strong as another but not three times as strong would be something very tricky without other points of reference.

Amigo Ten · Post by **Amigo Ten** » Thu Sep 03, 2009 7:23 pm

He's got himself and Freeza as points of reference. They can feel ki pretty accurately when it suits them, like when teaching fusion in the Buu saga. You have to able to judge when you are exactly matched with someone else. Other times they can't sense someone standing behind a cloud of dust.

But I've always seen it as Goku knowing exactly how that fight would turn out, because he knew he strong Freeza and he were. Vegeta thought he could win because he was just riding on the hype of the Super Saiyan, as he had been throughout the saga.

Again, it's perfectly in character for him, but it's still a stupid move.

rereboy · Post by **rereboy** » Thu Sep 03, 2009 7:30 pm

I have to disagree for the reasons I have already listed. However I respect your opinion.

To me, between the 100% Freeza situation and the Perfect Cell situation, there was hardly any difference. Vegeta was more cocky than Goku but they both just wanted to have a more challenging opponent.

mystic trunks · Post by **mystic trunks** » Thu Sep 03, 2009 8:36 pm

rereboy wrote:I have to disagree for the reasons I have already listed. However I respect your opinion.

To me, between the 100% Freeza situation and the Perfect Cell situation, there was hardly any difference. Vegeta was more cocky than Goku but they both just wanted to have a more challenging opponent.

Well, Goku wanted to beat Frieza at 100% so he knew that Frieza wouldn't come back later and destroy everybody ( which, of course, he did anyway) but Vegeta just wanted to test out his power.

Post by **Herms** » Thu Sep 03, 2009 8:41 pm

Kendamu wrote:Very good point. It's a nice counter to the "Vegeta was a retard lulz" kind of stuff that's been flying around here lately.

I don't really see how. So Goku is as much of a moron as Vegeta. That doesn't make Vegeta smart.

SSJmole · Post by **SSJmole** » Thu Sep 03, 2009 8:54 pm

Bulma.

She was a massive slut and so kinda said "ok Yamcha bye, mmm vegeta" so fast. This Lead to Trunks been born.

Also Bulma built the time machine.

So to add them up had Bulma never given birth to trunks or built a time machine then Cell would have killed trunks, took the the time machine. Gone back in time and became perfect.

So who is to blame? Bulma!

rereboy · Post by **rereboy** » Thu Sep 03, 2009 9:01 pm

Herms wrote:
Kendamu wrote:Very good point. It's a nice counter to the "Vegeta was a retard lulz" kind of stuff that's been flying around here lately.
I don't really see how. So Goku is as much of a moron as Vegeta. That doesn't make Vegeta smart.

Is just makes Vegeta a Sayan. A warrior who loves to test his power and fight. Just like Goku. But a overall more cocky Goku because of the whole Sayan Prince thing.

I really don`t see how Vegeta is more stupid than Goku when so much of the traits and even actions are the same or strikingly similar.

Overall Vegeta is pretty smart. He just wanted a worthy challenge and he grossly miscalculated how much more powerful Perfect Cell would be (I don`t think anyone could anticipate just how powerful he would be).

mystic trunks wrote:
rereboy wrote:I have to disagree for the reasons I have already listed. However I respect your opinion.

To me, between the 100% Freeza situation and the Perfect Cell situation, there was hardly any difference. Vegeta was more cocky than Goku but they both just wanted to have a more challenging opponent.
Well, Goku wanted to beat Freeza at 100% so he knew that Freeza wouldn't come back later and destroy everybody ( which, of course, he did anyway) but Vegeta just wanted to test out his power.

Goku just wanted to fight the universe strongest man at full power, like he said.

He could destroy him easily when he was at 70% but that was an unworthy challenge.

If he just wanted Freeza dead he would just kill him right away like Kaio told him to do.
But the prospect of fighting someone even stronger excited him. It made his sayan blood run hotter. He wasn`t crazy because he thought he could beat him, but it was still a huge risk letting him power up because he could be mistaken and lose the fight. Just like it was a huge risk letting Piccolo and Vegeta live.

Thats the same situation as Vegeta versus Cell. But with Vegeta, it backfired on him.

If Vegeta is stupid, then Goku is also stupid because of the same exact reasons. Goku was just lucky it didn`t backfire on him.

Piccolo Daimao · Post by **Piccolo Daimao** » Sat Sep 05, 2009 8:19 am

Well, I think there were numerous opportunities to prevent Cell's completion, so the generic idea of pinning everything on Vegeta isn't really fair. Like at the beginning of the Android Saga, Bulma suggested that they could've used the Dragon Balls to discover Dr. Gero's whereabouts before he created the Androids - which, in turn, would prevent Cell from becoming complete. Although that sort of backfires on them with the fact that they wouldn't have to train so hard for 3 years because of no threat and Cell, who had come from the future in Trunks' time machine, would've killed them all, it still means Cell couldn't become perfect. Yet Vegeta, Goku and even Tenshinhan, disagreed with the plan.

Then there's Piccolo. I don't think he's as much to blame as the others, but he still had the chance to defeat Cell while he could, which even he himself was frustrated about. 17 and 18 are also at fault, for not trying to escape. While you could say that Cell could catch up to them anyway, #16 was strong enough to hold off Cell with that Inferno Flash. Plus, Cell was injured. #17 and #18 could've escaped while #16 held Cell off, but no, #18 fooled herself into thinking Cell was dead, and #17 was cocky enough to want to have revenge.

And what about #16? #18 saw the opportunity to escape after Vegeta arrived, and although it was the right decision for #16 to plan their escape only after they were occupied, once they were occupied, why did he or #18 run away like they planned to?

And Kuririn. He had the perfect opportunity to turn off #18 with the remote, yet because he was "in love", he didn't. I know that, presumably, Kuririn never had a girlfriend, but I don't see how anyone can fall in love with someone after a meaningless, teasing kiss, unless they've known them for a long while, and Kuririn had known her for less than a day at that point. It was just another one of Toriyama's cheap plot devices.

And now we come to the big one, the mother of all cock-ups - Vegeta's foolish decision to allow Cell to absorb #18, even when he was more than strong enough to destroy Cell. You could say that this is the prime reason Cell became complete, but there were multiple times Cell's completion could've been prevented, so to blame only Vegeta is unfair when it was practically everyone's fault. Probably the only people not at fault here are Bulma, who was the one who came up with the idea for using the Dragon Balls to find Gero and also created the emergency suspension remote, and Trunks, who found the blueprints for #17 and #18 which enabled Bulma to make the remote and was the only one aside from Vegeta who had the power to destroy Cell and actually tried to prevent him from becoming complete.

It seems that everyone had the chance to stop Cell's completion - they were a, stupid enough to underestimate the threat, b, threw away the opportunity to stop Cell or c, were stopped by Cell himself by a Taiyo-ken or some other form of defense.

Velasa · Post by **Velasa** » Sat Sep 05, 2009 1:39 pm

<_< As I recall (though it's been a long time as noted), Pic's failure to take out Cell wasn't for lack of trying or lack of effort. He stalled for a bit to find out the plan, and when he tried to get back to the killing he got taiyokened in the face and wasn't able to find the little bitch again before he was in over his head. Wherein he still tried to tackle the guy and get 17 the hell out of there, but just got nearly killed instead. I don't really see how it's fair to put him at fault, even if it's less than the others.

Post by **Herms** » Sat Sep 05, 2009 1:57 pm

@Velasa: That's right, he never intended to let Cell escape. Though Piccolo getting his arm absorbed by Cell to get Cell to spill the beans about who he was, so you could argue that if Piccolo hadn't worried about who or what Cell was and just gone all-out from the beginning, then the whole later mess would have been avoided.

Amigo Ten · Post by **Amigo Ten** » Sat Sep 05, 2009 3:09 pm

I don't know why taioken even works anymore. Not long before #20 was bragging that they couldn't find him because they relied too much on sensing ki and not enough on normal senses.

Rocketman · Post by **Rocketman** » Sat Sep 05, 2009 3:14 pm

Amigo Ten wrote:I don't know why taioken even works anymore. Not long before #20 was bragging that they couldn't find him because they relied too much on sensing ki and not enough on normal senses.

Probably just because it hurts to have a really bright light shined in your eyes.

rereboy · Post by **rereboy** » Sat Sep 05, 2009 7:49 pm

Amigo Ten wrote:I don't know why taioken even works anymore. Not long before #20 was bragging that they couldn't find him because they relied too much on sensing ki and not enough on normal senses.

Why wouldn`t it work? After Freeza every major villain was able to control his ki (or didn`t have a ki if we are talking about the androids).

So someone like Cell could fire a taioken and then suppress his ki.

That way he couldn`t be traced by sight or ki. All that he had to do after that would be get away from that place.

Simple and effective.