"FUNimation thinks its audience is stupid" - Wait, what?

[Big Momma]

Well, hindsight is 20/20. There wasn't any real evidence in 1996 that American kid would enjoy a show in the vein as DBZ, and Funi's first priority is to make money above all else. So I don't see how they're treating its audience like crap. They were just being complacent and didn't have the insight that every company has now. They didn't think were stupid - they just didn't think that the style of DBZ appealed to their tastes. Of course, when Funimation completely took over in Season 3 and stopped editing the fuck out everything, they eventually started acknowledging the show's origin and original style more and more since they already hooked their audience on the show and the anime industry was evolving.

Just put yourself in their shoes at the time. When you're a small as shit company and the one show that you're banking the whole company on is completely unlike anything people have experienced before, you're more likely to just cling to the status-quo. Big companies can afford to risk introducing something different because if it doesn't work, they can just brush it off. But for a company as small as FUNi was back in the day, they weren't risking shit.

I have a one word response to all that, no, make it a one image response to disprove the idea of cartoons needing to be stupid for children to like them.

http://www.meltcomics.com/blog/wp-conte ... _comic.jpg

While Robotech did indeed splice three Japanese shows into one and removing some context for things it did NOT treat children like idiots, and it was extremely sucessful. Not enough for you? Okay, how about something made in America that did extremely well with dramatic themes and storytelling without dumbing down things. Better yet, let's make it a Disney Cartoon.

http://www.s8.org/gargoyles/archives/I'm ... arcast.gif

Okay... so you're saying that these two, and many other examples that I'm sure are out there proving you don't have to make a show stupid for it to be popular and sucessful with children just weren't mainstream enough for FUNimation to possibly notice, because clearly, the idea of treating kids as grown up enough to handle serious storytelling just had not have been tried?

I could point you to more, but ultimatly your defense of FUNimation on the value of "never been tried before" is either ignorance on your part, willed ignorance on your part, or criminally stupid ignorance on FUNimation's part to not even study their contemporaries and how they sold.

If indeed, FUNimation could NOT afford to fail, you'd think they'd do their research a bit further, don't you think?

I had never even heard of Robotech, and I wasn't fond of Gargoyles, either.

[Super Sonic]

The act of making it seem like an American cartoon is itself insulting to the intelligence of the viewer, saying that American children can't handle foreign entertainment unless it relates to what they already are used to. It's calling us uncultured.

That was how things were thought for years, reaching back to when Astro Boy was first on. Then again, it was on back when some folks weren't too fond of Japanese things due to prejudice or war grudges.

I had never even heard of Robotech, and I wasn't fond of Gargoyles, either.

It first came out in 1985. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=djhsu7WmAz4

[penguintruth]

That was how things were thought for years, reaching back to when Astro Boy was first on. Then again, it was on back when some folks weren't too fond of Japanese things due to prejudice or war grudges.

And yet nobody had problems bringing over cartoons from that country that had been our enemy.

Space Battleship Yamato became Starblazers and the Yamato itself became the Argo.

Like a lot of war veterans were watching Starblazers.

[Super Sonic]

Was referring to the 60s when the vets were the parents. Star Blazers was in the late 70s/80s when not as big a deal. BUt was just saying that for years the thought was "more Japanese, less American kids will like". Voltron producers mention that on dvd extras.

[Dr. Casey]

That's the whole point of what I'm trying to say. How does "making it more like an American cartoon" suddenly become, "Treating its audience like idiots."

That depends on the rationale behind the plot changes that penguin mentioned.

A. Funimation simply thought that changing Goku's motives for sparing Vegeta to more noble ones, or changing Vegeta's backstory to paint him as a tragic victim, would make for a more dramatic and compelling story. I wouldn't agree with them and it's not right to change the story around, but they couldn't be accused of thinking their audience to be stupid or simple in this scenario.

B. The changes were made to remove any sort of moral ambiguity, ie Goku acting in a very obviously selfish and non-heroic manner when it came to letting Vegeta live. If the dub writers did this because they thought kids were unable to understand (Or at least unable to appreciate) flawed characters, then yeah, that would be expecting a certain level of simplicity from the audience.

Personally, I'm thinking B's more likely considering the general tone of the show and marketing, such things as the heavy metal music used for some of the movies along with heavier usage of slang than kids of the mid to late 90s ever engaged in (Seriously, I hardly remember anyone saying something was 'in da house!' during my junior high years). It's a pretty transparent way of going "Look, kids - heavy metal, ebonics, and obnoxious slang! We're catering to the things you know best! Isn't DBZ so fucking cool?" I don't think they're evil or that they actively looked down on the audience and considered them brain damaged or anything like that; I just figured they underestimated a target audience they were out-of-touch with.

Of course, the Goku sparing Vegeta scene wouldn't have exactly worked out even if it was preserved properly simply because Goku's battle lust wasn't really established during the early parts of Z, where his battles are unwanted and not particularly appreciated. The scene makes sense in the Japanese version considering Goku's previous characterization in Dragon Ball (The Piccolo fight at the 23rd Budokai in particular), but the dub? The dub that begins with the Saiyan Saga? Goku's not excited in any way during the fight against Radditz, and he never shows any sort of eager anticipation for the Saiyans either (Personally, I think Goku underwent some mild Flanderization as the series progressed; he treats the Saiyan invasion very seriously, but is simply pumped up about the Androids even though they also want to destroy the world). If Goku asked Krillin to spare Vegeta so they could have a rematch someday in the English version, it would seem really random and out of left field because it calls upon a character trait not demonstrated during that slice of the series, a grown man that had up to that point been perfectly mature and reasonable suddenly doing something controversial and dangerous. Just the sort of problems that crop up whenever you remove half the story, I suppose.

[B]

Now I may be going a little off topic here, but I have a question. Does enjoying The Office (US) mean that one is uncultured? Is the creation of The Office (US) a direct insult to our intelligence?

The first season is because it's a cut-and-paste of the original, only with dry delivery. Subsequent seasons make an attempt to bring the spirit of the British Office with its own characters, even though the actual humor is a tad different. The Dragon Ball dub threw out the original's tone and made up its own.

I think the Doctor has a nice idea... but it seems too in-depth for FUNi.

[Piccolo Daimaoh]

On the topic of the Season Sets marketing, FUNimation couldn't have said that the cropping was bad and the remastering process actually made the show worse because then no one would fucking buy it. It's common sense people, yet some people here fail to understand it.



The didn't treat us like idiots, they didn't treat us like 9 year olds, (though the Season Sets were marketed to pre-teens) they were just trying to sell a product to make money because that's what companies do.

[caejones]

On the topic of the Season Sets marketing, FUNimation couldn't have said that the cropping was bad and the remastering process actually made the show worse because then no one would fucking buy it. It's common sense people, yet some people here fail to understand it.



The didn't treat us like idiots, they didn't treat us like 9 year olds, (though the Season Sets were marketed to pre-teens) they were just trying to sell a product to make money because that's what companies do.

So, you're saying they couldn't have marketed the Season Sets in a positive light without lying about them? They couldn't have left out the dishonesty without saying "This is crap"?
The absence of lies does not imply the addition of negatives, nor does it imply the prohibition of positives.

[desirecampbell]

On the topic of the Season Sets marketing, FUNimation couldn't have said that the cropping was bad and the remastering process actually made the show worse because then no one would fucking buy it. It's common sense people, yet some people here fail to understand it.
The didn't treat us like idiots, they didn't treat us like 9 year olds, (though the Season Sets were marketed to pre-teens) they were just trying to sell a product to make money because that's what companies do.

What?! Again they made the choice to crop it and do a shitty re-master. They weren't victims of someone else's whims. They weren't forced to do it and forced to try and sell it. They cropped the picture and said it gave more image - they shit in our coffee and called it sugar.

I have no idea where you get the idea that FUNi needed to put out these terrible season sets. They didn't.

[VegettoEX]

On the topic of the Season Sets marketing, FUNimation couldn't have said that the cropping was bad and the remastering process actually made the show worse because then no one would fucking buy it. It's common sense people, yet some people here fail to understand it.

I have to wonder if you're drinking so much of the Kool-Aid that you honestly think we're idiots and don't understand basic marketing principles.

None of us are expecting FUNimation to come out and say, "Yes, this product is really terrible!" (Of course, you could argue that the subsequent existence of the Dragon Box sets admits as much without saying it in words...)

Of course FUNimation is going to market a product as "good". They made it and want people to buy it. They are a company that's in the business of making money. That's not a question here. It never was. Those of you arguing that side of it aren't stopping to think for a goddamn second about what it is you're actually arguing. caejones and desirecampbell just nailed it -- the marketing was full of deceptive lies, and not just "marketing speak". It was mis- and dis-information purposefully crafted to mislead their audience.

Was it the "right" thing to do? Did they sell a buttload?

That's not the question at hand. None of us are arguing that in this particular space (though we all have our own personal feelings on it). They did what they did and heavily profited off of it.

The question was whether or not they treated us like idiots. They did, and fascinatingly enough, in a post-Barry Watson world. You simply cannot argue against that with this particular marketing initiative. I mean, you could, but you'd be wrong.

For a totally different train of thought...

I think this is a wonderful conversation to be had. It's great to dive into ~15 years of marketing and spin from FUNimation to see how they have (or have not!) changed with the flow of time. What makes me so curious is when folks like jjgp1112 and Piccolo Daimaoh argue the very same points that get presented back to them, but take it in a completely different manner. What were you looking to get out of the conversation? You phrase everything so defensively, as if by asking whether or not they treated you like idiots and then being presented with information that confirms it... I don't know... it's almost like a weird Stockholm Syndrome situation for you. I suppose that's how much of FUNimation's fanbase has felt over the years, whether they realize it or not.

[jjgp1112]

Wait, so your basically saying that I'm somebody who's been treated like crap for years, and defending the people who allegedly treated me like crap?

It all sounds silly to me. Maybe it's because of the fact that I don't care enough about a TV Show or a DVD Release to give a crap about all of the stuff that goes into marketing it.

[VegettoEX]

Wait, so your basically saying that I'm somebody who's been treated like crap for years, and defending the people who allegedly treated me like crap?

It all sounds silly to me. Maybe it's because of the fact that I don't care enough about a TV Show or a DVD Release to give a crap about all of the stuff that goes into marketing it.

B-but... if you don't care... why did you start a thread about it...?!

Confused, man!

[jjgp1112]

I'm trying to see HOW it's possible that they think we're stupid in the first place. Just because I don't care doesn't mean I can't have a particular observation or opinion of it.

I don't care enough about it for it to actually affect me. I don't go around swearing that Vince McMahon is an evil man just because the WWE has recently been watered down for kids without regard for the adult males.

[mystic trunks]

Can someone tell me what was so bad about the remastereing? I mean, how bad could it really have been that people make this big a deal about it?

[B]

Can someone tell me what was so bad about the remastereing? I mean, how bad could it really have been that people make this big a deal about it?

Go away and google. Or fucking watch some of it. And it wasn't just the remastering. They lied to you. And apparently, you don't care.

[mystic trunks]

Can someone tell me what was so bad about the remastereing? I mean, how bad could it really have been that people make this big a deal about it?

Go away and google. Or fucking watch some of it. And it wasn't just the remastering. They lied to you. And apparently, you don't care.

You gots the hemerrhoids?

[LeprikanGT]

If you feel like you've been treated like crap or treated as though you were stupid, just leave the situation and don't look back.

Most all marketing has some kind of 'untruth to it'.

[VegettoEX]

Can someone tell me what was so bad about the remastereing? I mean, how bad could it really have been that people make this big a deal about it?

This is not the thread for that discussion. Please search around the forum, as there have been countless threads and discussions since its release in 2007 that covered it, not to mention various pages and podcasts on this very website.

Go away and google. Or fucking watch some of it. And it wasn't just the remastering. They lied to you. And apparently, you don't care.

C'mon, now. Don't be a dick. That's just uncalled for. I won't tolerate it again.

Most all marketing has some kind of 'untruth to it'.

There's a huge difference between "untruth" and a premeditated and calculated web of lies.

I'm trying to see HOW it's possible that they think we're stupid in the first place.

So what do you think after having such an overwhelming batch of evidence presented to you?

[the_abberration]

I know this may be a bad example, but on some level kinda conveys the whole thinking it's audience is stupid.

Imagine the red truck as the UUE's compared to the truck we got in the Season Sets.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nKdIKP1arF0

[Anonymous Friend]

If you feel like you've been treated like crap or treated as though you were stupid, just leave the situation and don't look back.

Most all marketing has some kind of 'untruth to it'.

Exactly. Every peice of advertising ever made wants you to believe that it's the best thing ever and you need to buy it because nothing else compares to it.

A lot of posters in this topic seem to think that dumbing something downs seems to imply that they think that someone's an idiot. There's plenty of movies, TV shows, books or whatever that has someone say something in a very complex way, then someone says "In english, please" or something like that. With Dragonball Z, it was possibly certain themes or just the way the show is presented that led them to believe that it wouldn't have been as accepted. At the most they underestimated their audience's ability to take in the material and like it. Personally, I am not inclined to accept testimonials from people on a message board as proof that the wide audience that this product was aimed to would have enjoyed a direct translation without any problems. The only thing we know as fact is that the product that FUNi did release became immensely popular.

Any changes that they made were made because some nut would have been offended by what they saw and they didn't want to be bothered by them, or they added something because they thought at would made the product better. Basically, they can only be accused of trying too hard to be cool and awesome (and failing miserably, depending on your personal opinion).

I never felt insulted watching the FUNi dub. I never felt like they thought I was an idiot. "Seeing their parachutes" and "Empty buildings on Sunday" seemed wierd and strange but not insulting.