Ultimate Gohan not in GT and possibly Battle of Gods?

[Saiga]

Goku did Surpass that level of power though. Vegeta says that Goku is stronger than Gohan was when he killed Cell.

Oops, my bad.
But my point still stands, since Piccolo said that his power is perhaps even greater, meaning that there is not a huge difference between their powers.

I dunno, I wouldn't trust Piccolo's judgement on ki sensing when he fucked up hard with Gotenks...

[TheMightyOzaru]

Goku did Surpass that level of power though. Vegeta says that Goku is stronger than Gohan was when he killed Cell.

Oops, my bad.
But my point still stands, since Piccolo said that his power is perhaps even greater, meaning that there is not a huge difference between their powers.

I dunno, I wouldn't trust Piccolo's judgement on ki sensing when he fucked up hard with Gotenks...

so true.

[Fox666]

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[Saiga]

But it seems to be true, Vegeta could only confirm it the second time he witnessed transformed.

I don't think that's enough to call it true. The first time Goku transformed, it was very brief. I think that has more to do with Vegeta needing to see it a second time to confirm his strength than Goku and Gohan's strength being close together.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Why? Both Vegeta & Piccolo had sensed Gohan's full power back then, and then they sensed SS2 Goku's full power. Vegeta he had already sensed a glimpse of Goku's power against Yakon, and speculated that Goku's power was above Gohan's from back then, and later he confirmed to himself that he was correct, and that Goku really was above Gohan. Piccolo saying perhaps says us that Goku's power just isn't very far from Gohan's from back then.

[Blade]

I disagree. I think it should read:

1) "Ultimate" Gohan
2) SSJ3 Gotenks
3) SSJ3 Goku

Because of the version of Super Buu Gohan fights, I'd say it's obvious he's much stronger than Goku at SSJ3, as well as SSJ3 Gotenks.

I disagree and maintain that my list is more consistent with the narrative.

Super Buu toys with Gotenks as a Super Saiyan 3 whilst waiting for Gohan, the great emerging power he could distantly sense. This places his power well below Gohan who was far more powerful than Super Buu but completely out-classed once Gotenks was absorbed.

Once Goku is revived and returns to the fight he appears to be far more able to trade blows and hold off Buu than Gohan was, albeit perhaps owing to the fact that unlike Gohan he was not fatigued or injured. Whilst this does not definitively place his power as being above Gohan I believe it's a good indication that this is the case - or at the very least that their powers are comparable, which also places Goku above Gotenks.

I honestly believe that if Gotenks and Gohan were more powerful than Goku at Super Saiyan 3 then Vegeta would have wasted little time in having them join the fight against Kid Buu on the Kai Planet. Essentially the narrative calls for Goku to be the most powerful during his final confrontation with Buu and there isn't really any evidence to argue the contrary - neither in the Manga, the Anime or in Movies 12 and 13.

[Saiga]

Goku is only able to trade blows with Gotenks-Boo in the anime, so that has no bearing on the manga discussion. The anime does imply that Goku is stronger by making Pure Boo the strongest.

However, as for Vegeta not wishing for Gohan and Gotenks to join in the battle, well that's just plain PIS so Goku can be the hero. He really should've done so. Even if you don't think they were strong enough, he still could've wished for Goku's energy to come back (which they ended up doing anyway) so he could just finish Pure Boo with one attack like he said. Or, you know, use the Potara fusion instead of crushing them. At this stage they simply weren't thinking smart because the plot demanded it so.

Goku was used in the final confrontation because Toriyama wanted him to be the hero again - we know this, he's said this. There would be no reason to depower Boo if he was stronger than Gotenks and Gohan.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

However, as for Vegeta not wishing for Gohan and Gotenks to join in the battle, well that's just plain PIS so Goku can be the hero.

While I would like Gohan & Gotenks killing Boo, Goku killing Boo with the power of the Earth, Namek, AfterLife, and the Dragon Balls is also a great way to end the manga.

[Saiga]

However, as for Vegeta not wishing for Gohan and Gotenks to join in the battle, well that's just plain PIS so Goku can be the hero.

While I would like Gohan & Gotenks killing Boo, Goku killing Boo with the power of the Earth, Namek, AfterLife, and the Dragon Balls is also a great way to end the manga.

I would agree, if it weren't for the fact that it required PIS to get to that point. It's really cool and all... until you think about what a huge gamble it was.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

However, as for Vegeta not wishing for Gohan and Gotenks to join in the battle, well that's just plain PIS so Goku can be the hero.

While I would like Gohan & Gotenks killing Boo, Goku killing Boo with the power of the Earth, Namek, AfterLife, and the Dragon Balls is also a great way to end the manga.

I would agree, if it weren't for the fact that it required PIS to get to that point. It's really cool and all... until you think about what a huge gamble it was.

Well, Vegeta's reason was so that the Earthlings should save their planet with their own power, instead of depending on others.

[Saiga]

Well, Vegeta's reason was so that the Earthlings should save their planet with their own power, instead of depending on others.

Yeah, but it's still pretty flimsy. It wasn't a sure plan, and they're still using Goku to save the day even if the Earthlings are powering it.

[Fox666]

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[Darkprince410]

I disagree. I think it should read:

1) "Ultimate" Gohan
2) SSJ3 Gotenks
3) SSJ3 Goku

Because of the version of Super Buu Gohan fights, I'd say it's obvious he's much stronger than Goku at SSJ3, as well as SSJ3 Gotenks.

I disagree and maintain that my list is more consistent with the narrative.

Super Buu toys with Gotenks as a Super Saiyan 3 whilst waiting for Gohan, the great emerging power he could distantly sense. This places his power well below Gohan who was far more powerful than Super Buu but completely out-classed once Gotenks was absorbed.

Once Goku is revived and returns to the fight he appears to be far more able to trade blows and hold off Buu than Gohan was, albeit perhaps owing to the fact that unlike Gohan he was not fatigued or injured. Whilst this does not definitively place his power as being above Gohan I believe it's a good indication that this is the case - or at the very least that their powers are comparable, which also places Goku above Gotenks.

I honestly believe that if Gotenks and Gohan were more powerful than Goku at Super Saiyan 3 then Vegeta would have wasted little time in having them join the fight against Kid Buu on the Kai Planet. Essentially the narrative calls for Goku to be the most powerful during his final confrontation with Buu and there isn't really any evidence to argue the contrary - neither in the Manga, the Anime or in Movies 12 and 13.

His list is accurate though if you're going by the manga though, since the main bit of evidence you're using doesn't even exist in the manga. Goku never actually fought Gotenks Buu at any point in the manga, as the fusion within him wore off as Buu was making his initial charge towards Goku. As for Vegeta not bringing Gotenks and Gohan to Kaioushin's planet to fight Buu, he points out his exact reasons why he didn't want to bring them there. It wasn't that he felt that they weren't strong enough, but that he felt that the people of Earth needed to handle their own problems for once, and needed to contribute to their own safety rather than relying on the Z Senshi all the time. He says that's his reason why he wanted Goku to use the Genki Dama, and since there's nothing contradicting that as his reason why, we can't assume that he felt Gohan and Gotenks weren't strong enough to get the job done.

[Dabooyaka]

I think the only reason Goku and Vegeta decided not to bring Gohan and Gotenks is because their Dumb-asses got absorbed once, and there was a good chance that might have happened again.

[Marco Polo]

I would agree, if it weren't for the fact that it required PIS to get to that point. It's really cool and all... until you think about what a huge gamble it was.

PIS?

[Kaboom]

I would agree, if it weren't for the fact that it required PIS to get to that point. It's really cool and all... until you think about what a huge gamble it was.

PIS?

"Plot-Induced Stupidity."

[DBZAOTA482]

Well, Vegeta's reason was so that the Earthlings should save their planet with their own power, instead of depending on others.

But that only makes the PIS worse, Vegeta makes it sound like the perpetual threats were all the Earthlings' faults when it's not....far from it.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Well, Vegeta's reason was so that the Earthlings should save their planet with their own power, instead of depending on others.

But that only makes the PIS worse, Vegeta makes it sound like the perpetual threats were all the Earthlings' faults when it's not....far from it.

No, it doesn't. Pilaf, Black, Piccolo Daimao, Vegeta, Freeza, Cell. All these threaten to rule, or even destroy the Earth, and all of them were defeated thanks to Goku & co. If Goku & co. hadn't defeated them, then all these Earthlings that are alive and living their nice lives would be dead. They have their lives only because of the Z-Senshi, so it was time for them to actually do something to save their asses from Majin Boo.

[DBZAOTA482]

Well, Vegeta's reason was so that the Earthlings should save their planet with their own power, instead of depending on others.

But that only makes the PIS worse, Vegeta makes it sound like the perpetual threats were all the Earthlings' faults when it's not....far from it.

No, it doesn't. Pilaf, Black, Piccolo Daimao, Vegeta, Freeza, Cell. All these threaten to rule, or even destroy the Earth, and all of them were defeated thanks to Goku & co. If Goku & co. hadn't defeated them, then all these Earthlings that are alive and living their nice lives would be dead. They have their lives only because of the Z-Senshi, so it was time for them to actually do something to save their asses from Majin Boo.

Still makes it sound like it's their fault when in fact, a great of those threats came about because of the Z-Senshi and it still doesn't excuse the fact that Goku left his children, Trunks, Piccolo, and Tenshinhan for dead yet was willing to save a two-faced liar (Mr. Satan) especially considering it would have made their jobs easier.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Still makes it sound like it's their fault when in fact, a great of those threats came about because of the Z-Senshi

Earth is still the Earthling's home, and they have the responsibility to protect it. It's like if I came and started destroying your house because I had a relationship in the past with your girlfriend. It's because of your girlfriend, but you still have the responsibility to protect your house.

it still doesn't excuse the fact that Goku left his children, Trunks, Piccolo, and Tenshinhan for dead yet was willing to save a two-faced liar (Mr. Satan) especially considering it would have made their jobs easier.

I never said there was an excuse for this.