What things irreversibly lowered your opinion of the series?

[MCDaveG]

So we are obviously all still fans of the franchise in a general sense. But what turns has the series taken where you then started to enjoy it less from that point?

3. Main canon + [Xenoverse] Confusion with the 3 timelines and Tokitoki/Beerus.
What happened to Babidi/Dabra/Buu in Trunks and Cells timelines? Is there only one Beers and Whis like there is only one Tokitoki? If there's more what did they do in Trunks/Cells timelines? Worse is that these questions never get answered...

If we go by Dimps canon, the answer lies in Shin Budokai 2 Story mode!

[SSJ Human]

Vegeta being forgiven in-universe for all the shitty things he did pre-Buu's final redemption.
I kind of get it with Gohan and Krillin since he did end up helping them out a few times on Namek, but everyone else except Tenshinhan was acting really weirdly friendly towards him. Even Yamcha seemed mostly cool with Vegeta despite the out of the blue hook up with his long-term girlfriend.

Goten and Trunks achieving Super Saiyan without great emotional stress or training, thus cheapening it beyond belief.
Pan will probably sneeze really hard and accidentally unlock it in Super. Mark my words.

Dragonballs being able to revive everyone multiple times without any drawbacks.
Especially prevalent in the Buu saga where it's like "Ah, don't worry about saving any of our friends, we'll just wish em back with the Dragonballs".

Humans not getting even the fricking Kaio-ken.
Seriously. I make no apologies for loving the Dragonball cast more than all these alien newcomers, and this is probably my biggest personal issue with the series. There's not even a reason they can't be given the Kaio Ken when Goku stops using it!
Tenshinhan, Chiaoutzu and Yamcha were on King Kai's planet for quite some time. Krillin could of been taught it easily during the training for the Androids allowing the Kaio-Ken to remain relevant and the humans to not just nearly die by being blinked at a little too hard by the opposing enemies.

Goku and the Saiyans getting higher levels of Super Saiyan, thus rendering strategy obsolete and instead relying on the next big transformation.
Super Saiyan 3 felt ridiculous to me since it came pretty much out of no-where and cheapened the Goku Vs. Majin Vegeta fight.
Sadly I appear to be alone on this since everyone else I know gets hyped every time a new form appears with slightly altered hair styles.

Fan's opinions on Krillin and Yamcha as a whole.
Pretty self explanatory.

Fan's opinions on Strength=Good character.
Likewise.

Fans.
At times.

I agree. My problem with the series lies heavily in its mistreatment of the human characters. Kaio-ken would have made them in my opinion more plausible in being able to fight against the Androids and the form's Achilles' heel could be that it strains their energy the longer it is used.

I would have liked if the older characters were given times to shine, which is what Resurrection 'F' attempted to do.

I liked how during the fight with Raditz, the enemy was defeated with strategy. Why couldn't that have been the thing for the series? Instead, we've got SSJ1 to fight Frieza, SSJ2 to fight Cell and SSJ3 to sort of fight Kid Buu. Then GT brings in SSJ4 with Baby. We shouldn't need a new transformation to stand a chance. Really I think the way they should have gone was to keep up the strategy. SSJ and SSJ2 were kind of acceptable for Frieza and Cell, but everything else should have been strategy.

The continued focus on Goku and Vegeta. I miss Gohan, Krillin, Piccolo and to a lesser extent Bulma being relevant. The new movie did this, but not to the degree that I would have liked.

Gohan's continuing decline. That character saddens me. Why give him the strength to defeat Buu and then nix it with bringing Goku back? What sucks about his defeat against Buu is that now everyone says he can't turn Super Saiyan anymore even though everything official says he can, leading me to become angry since the only reason Toriyama did not have him transform against Buu is because then the fight would have ended along with the series, which probably would have been for the best.

The transformations in general. I liked SSJ -SSJ4 and Goku having all of them made sense. Vegeta following behind was a good decision, but then all of the kids can only at highest go up to SSJ2? Give me a break. The only reason they don't give Goten and Trunks SSJ2 is because then Gohan wouldn't have anything special.

[SSJ Human]

Double post.

[Lord Beerus]

My problem with the series lies heavily in its mistreatment of the human characters. Kaio-ken would have made them in my opinion more plausible in being able to fight against the Androids and the form's Achilles' heel could be that it strains their energy the longer it is used.

There is no way in hell the human cast would ever catch up to the Androids with just the Kaioken. It's bloody impossible.

[SSJ Human]

My problem with the series lies heavily in its mistreatment of the human characters. Kaio-ken would have made them in my opinion more plausible in being able to fight against the Androids and the form's Achilles' heel could be that it strains their energy the longer it is used.

There is no way in hell the human cast would ever catch up to the Androids with just the Kaioken. It's bloody impossible.

Of course, but that was where the Hyperbolic Time Chamber would come into play. Tien not entering it didn't make any sense to me and the other humans not thinking about doing it was even more incredulous to me.

[BlazingFiddlesticks]

Maybe I do not understand what this topic is supposed to be about, but it seems odd that people are saying nigh-twenty plus year old plot points are ruining a series when they would have had to experience them prior to have an opinion. Vegeta let Cell absorb #18 in 1992. It is a thing.

Having avoided spoilers beyond the inevitable, I am rather disappointed in Toriyama for following one of the most well-thought out stories in the series and a revelation as to what a Dragon Ball Z movie could accomplish with Resurrection F, an exercise in recycled ideas to a degree we have not seen since Super 17 and can at best simply be a better DBZ Movie 9; nobody cares about Bojack, buts that seems to be fine. As RocketMan has taken to saying at every turn, our confidence in Toriyama to do better by Dragon Ball than Toei has been shaken; I would be pretty impressed with anyone who could say otherwise.

Fortunately the rest of the new stuff is nearly as forgettable as Evolution; Bardock is so inconsequential that Minus and Episode of are nothings I tend to forget about.

[Hellspawn28]

I think the only thing that ROF and Super 17 saga have in common that they brought back a old villain and made them much stronger. Besides that, ROF didn't have two past villains team up and have Hell on Earth (which the Super 17 saga already rehash from DBZ Movie 12). I haven't seen ROF yet and the people who seen it told me that it's a decent film. I feel like most people bashing it on only read the summary on the main website and haven't judge the movie for themselves. Even if the movie does suck then that's just one movie. It's unfair to say Toriyama can no longer do DB better by than Toei because of one film. Toei made many DB stuff on their own that was utter crap in my opinion.

Episode of are nothings I tend to forget about

Well Toriyama had nothing to do with Episode of Bardock anyways. Naho Oishi is pretty much to blame on Episode of Bardock anyways.

[BlazingFiddlesticks]

Even if the movie does suck then that's just one movie. It's unfair to say Toriyama can no longer do DB better by than Toei because of one film.

True, a movie is a one-off, and to back-peddle on my exclusion of stuff from the original run, it is not as if the man was flawless back in the heyday as it was. The point I attempt to make is merely that there is no precedent in the franchise of rising so high in stroke only to fall so low in the next; the drop is damn near total and in my eyes Toriyama will be digging himself out of a pit come Super. Hopefully the climb will be quick and I will be enjoying myself like its 2002 all over again.

I suspect I will like Resurrection F just fine anyway; like everything else one may not like, it is now an immortal thing, and anything good it ends up being the testbed for could continue on into Super.

[Bullza]

Resurrection F was a good film. It's one that looks better than it sounds due to all the action in it.

Like Battle of Gods it's far better than any of Toei's movies. they're all shit in comparison.

It's probably a very fair comparison to make considering the difference in the runtime, the animation and effort put into the films. I suppose if Toei made another Dragon Ball Z movie without Toriyamas involvement it'd possibly still be pretty good.

Though these last two movies, Naruto and One Pieces last two movies show that having the original author involved makes a big difference.

[Rocketman]

Resurrection F was a good film. It's one that looks better than it sounds due to all the action in it.

Like Battle of Gods it's far better than any of Toei's movies. they're all shit in comparison.

I highly doubt that, since Movie 12 had a far superior Freesurrection.

[Puto]

No, if he just disabled her, Cell could still absorb her (at one point Cell even wishes he had the remote as it'd make absorbing the androids much easier). The whole point was to turn her off and then blow her up while she's defenceless.

They still had the Dragon Balls, really. Piccolo's judgement during the Boo arc, that no matter how many people you sacrifice, you can still revive them, though very cruel, is still the most logical and rational option to take in these times of need.

No, they didn't. Piccolo had merged with God and they didn't have Dende yet. As far as Kuririn knew, if #18 died, it was permanent.

[Bullza]

Resurrection F was a good film. It's one that looks better than it sounds due to all the action in it.

Like Battle of Gods it's far better than any of Toei's movies. they're all shit in comparison.

I highly doubt that, since Movie 12 had a far superior Freesurrection.

You wouldn't know.

[Hellspawn28]

I still take Golden Freeza over Super 17 anyways. #17 was just another typical bad guy that hardly had any development and having him come back over a decade later being much stronger then both Cell and Buu didn't make much sense to me. Not to mention at the time when GT was airing, I feel like a more original bad guy should have been created instead. It would be cool to have a new original foe instead of Freeza, but it been so long since Goku fought Freeza and Freeza's is Goku's most iconic villain. Yeah Freeza show up in GT, Fusion Reborn and the filler episodes in the Buu saga, but I hardly count those.

[Lord Beerus]

I still take Golden Freeza over Super 17 anyways. #17 was just another typical bad guy that hardly had any development and having him come back over a decade later being much stronger then both Cell and Buu didn't make much sense to me. Not to mention at the time when GT was airing, I feel like a more original bad guy should have been created instead. It would be cool to have a new original foe instead of Freeza, but it been so long since Goku fought Freeza and Freeza's is Goku's most iconic villain. Yeah Freeza show up in GT, Fusion Reborn and the filler episodes in the Buu saga, but I hardly count those.

I too would also take Golden Freeza over Super #17 any day. Super #17 is worst main villain in the history of Dragon Ball.

[DBZAOTA482]

I still take Golden Freeza over Super 17 anyways. #17 was just another typical bad guy that hardly had any development and having him come back over a decade later being much stronger then both Cell and Buu didn't make much sense to me. Not to mention at the time when GT was airing, I feel like a more original bad guy should have been created instead. It would be cool to have a new original foe instead of Freeza, but it been so long since Goku fought Freeza and Freeza's is Goku's most iconic villain. Yeah Freeza show up in GT, Fusion Reborn and the filler episodes in the Buu saga, but I hardly count those.

I too would also take Golden Freeza over Super #17 any day. Super #17 is worst main villain in the history of Dragon Ball.

I would take a sack of baby shit over Super #17.

[SSJ Human]

I still take Golden Freeza over Super 17 anyways. #17 was just another typical bad guy that hardly had any development and having him come back over a decade later being much stronger then both Cell and Buu didn't make much sense to me. Not to mention at the time when GT was airing, I feel like a more original bad guy should have been created instead. It would be cool to have a new original foe instead of Freeza, but it been so long since Goku fought Freeza and Freeza's is Goku's most iconic villain. Yeah Freeza show up in GT, Fusion Reborn and the filler episodes in the Buu saga, but I hardly count those.

I too would also take Golden Freeza over Super #17 any day. Super #17 is worst main villain in the history of Dragon Ball.

I would take a sack of baby shit over Super #17.

Yeah I wasn't into that saga either. The only thing I liked about it was giving 18 some screen-time, which was then followed by her fading away into obscurity. Everything else I had problems with like how they brought Cell back but he never encountered Gohan, who was sidelined to nearly losing to Rildo and then fighting the main villain when the writers knew they couldn't make him win. Then you have 19 come back from Hell when he's apparently fully-robotic, but we've heard nothing of 16 since his own death. It was just bad.

[Hellspawn28]

The biggest issue with the Super 17 saga is that why pick #17 over any other villain to come back? #17 and #18 hardly did anything in Goku's timeline and I feel like that #16 was the best cyborg out of the three. With #16, you feel like that you care about him and Not to mention they have old villains escape out of Hell and kill them all off screen like it was nothing. It was a huge opportunity not to have current z fighters to interact with the past villains after so many years. That's why I love the bit of Nappa and Vegeta in GT because it been so long since we saw those two together.

I found myself disliking the Super 17 saga more and more over the years. A decade ago I would say that the Black Star Dagon Ball arc was worst because it was so boring. Now I find the Super 17 saga worst because having ideas that are so terrible written together.

[Rocketman]

See, GT had the supporting cast fighting a bunch of fodder before an old villain came back inexplicably powerful and chumped them all until Godku showed up. Then Godku misjudged his enemy and got beaten until a third-tier cast member invoked a familial connection to get the villain to drop his guard and allow Goku to win with a last-ditch attack.

This is dumb and bad. Stupid Toei.

Now, in TORIYAMA's Dragonball, we have the supporting cast fighting a bunch of fodder before an old villain came back inexplicably powerful and chumped them all until Godku showed up. Then Godku misjudged his enemy and got beaten until a literal deus ex machina happened that let Goku win effortlessly. This is good and proper.

[Lord Beerus]

See, GT had the supporting cast fighting a bunch of fodder before an old villain came back inexplicably powerful and chumped them all until Godku showed up. Then Godku misjudged his enemy and got beaten until a third-tier cast member invoked a familial connection to get the villain to drop his guard and allow Goku to win with a last-ditch attack.

This is dumb and bad. Stupid Toei.

Now, in TORIYAMA's Dragonball, we have the supporting cast fighting a bunch of fodder before an old villain came back inexplicably powerful and chumped them all until Godku showed up. Then Godku misjudged his enemy and got beaten until a literal deus ex machina happened that let Goku win effortlessly. This is good and proper.

The only significant character that Freeza defeats in ROF when he came back was Gohan. In GT, every major Z-Fighter under the sun, Gohan, Goten, Trunks, Majuub and Vegeta took on Super #17 got effortlessly stomped.

[fadeddreams5]

See, GT had the supporting cast fighting a bunch of fodder before an old villain came back inexplicably powerful and chumped them all until Godku showed up. Then Godku misjudged his enemy and got beaten until a third-tier cast member invoked a familial connection to get the villain to drop his guard and allow Goku to win with a last-ditch attack.

This is dumb and bad. Stupid Toei.

Now, in TORIYAMA's Dragonball, we have the supporting cast fighting a bunch of fodder before an old villain came back inexplicably powerful and chumped them all until Godku showed up. Then Godku misjudged his enemy and got beaten until a literal deus ex machina happened that let Goku win effortlessly. This is good and proper.

The only significant character that Freeza defeats in ROF when he came back was Gohan. In GT, every major Z-Fighter under the sun, Gohan, Goten, Trunks, Majuub and Vegeta took on Super #17 got effortlessly stomped.

Gohan was several times stronger than everyone else. Frieza one-shotting him in his 1st form is the equivalent of Super 17 making sport of everyone at once. = P