Why can you or can not accept Dragon Ball without Toriyama ?

[8000 Saiyan]

I can accept DB without Toriyama.

[TheGreatness25]

I don't have a problem with other properties not involving the original author. Does any Superman fan really are that Jerry Siegel and Joe Shuster didn't work on it in all this time? Do fans dismiss Batman The Animated Series because Bob Kane didn't work on it? Do people care that the 2012 (I believe) Rise of the Planet of the Apes wasn't directed by Franklin J. Schaffner or written by Michael Wilson or Rod Serling? So why do we do it with Dragon Ball? Is it because not enough time passed to do something new not involving him? This "canon" thing gets thrown around and is directly linked to Akira Toriyama's vision. I personally do not care as long as it is entertaining.

[8000 Saiyan]

I don't have a problem with other properties not involving the original author. Does any Superman fan really are that Jerry Siegel and Joe Shuster didn't work on it in all this time? Do fans dismiss Batman The Animated Series because Bob Kane didn't work on it? Do people care that the 2012 (I believe) Rise of the Planet of the Apes wasn't directed by Franklin J. Schaffner or written by Michael Wilson or Rod Serling? So why do we do it with Dragon Ball? Is it because not enough time passed to do something new not involving him? This "canon" thing gets thrown around and is directly linked to Akira Toriyama's vision. I personally do not care as long as it is entertaining.

Some fans just don't want to see their perfect franchise ruined.

[UltimateHammerBro]

I don't have a problem with other properties not involving the original author. Does any Superman fan really are that Jerry Siegel and Joe Shuster didn't work on it in all this time? Do fans dismiss Batman The Animated Series because Bob Kane didn't work on it? Do people care that the 2012 (I believe) Rise of the Planet of the Apes wasn't directed by Franklin J. Schaffner or written by Michael Wilson or Rod Serling? So why do we do it with Dragon Ball? Is it because not enough time passed to do something new not involving him? This "canon" thing gets thrown around and is directly linked to Akira Toriyama's vision. I personally do not care as long as it is entertaining.

While I have no problem accepting non-Toriyama material, I don't think we can compare Superman or Batman with Dragon Ball.

The first ones are franchises which have published stories for decades, done by a myriad different artists, and everyone is fine with that. American superhero comics seem to follow that model, unless a series is strongly associated with its creators.
Manga in general tends to be more associated with its original author(s) and run, telling a story with a clear beginning and end. This approach means that anything outside the original story, such as adaptations or additional material, is judged with harsher, stricter criteria, mostly by fans.

The standards are just too different to compare them. Can you imagine a (well received, to rule Evolution out) DB film which was as lax to the original manga as "Batman v Superman"? Or a version of "Batman v Superman" which was only based on the original Schiegel/Shuster and Kane/Finger stories?

[SaiyanZ]

I'd be ok with the series creating stories without Toriyama's involvement if there was someone who could pull it off competently.

Pretty much most material that doesn't have his involvement sucks.

This a hundred times. As long as I like it and I find it good, I don't care who it is.

[TheGreatness25]

While I have no problem accepting non-Toriyama material, I don't think we can compare Superman or Batman with Dragon Ball.

The first ones are franchises which have published stories for decades, done by a myriad different artists, and everyone is fine with that. American superhero comics seem to follow that model, unless a series is strongly associated with its creators.
Manga in general tends to be more associated with its original author(s) and run, telling a story with a clear beginning and end. This approach means that anything outside the original story, such as adaptations or additional material, is judged with harsher, stricter criteria, mostly by fans.

The standards are just too different to compare them. Can you imagine a (well received, to rule Evolution out) DB film which was as lax to the original manga as "Batman v Superman"? Or a version of "Batman v Superman" which was only based on the original Schiegel/Shuster and Kane/Finger stories?

Well what's really the difference? Dragon Ball is beyond the manga. The entire Dragon Ball and Z series was not animated nor scripted by Toriyama. We got side movies, we got GT, we got scripts for video games, we even got a live action movie that had nothing to do with Toriyama. Even Super isn't exactly a pure Toriyama creation. So there has already been a "myriad of different artists" for the franchise. And yes, Dragon Ball has been around for decades. In the end, Toriyama's only true 100% creation was the manga -- 42 volumes of it. Think of everything that we've gotten besides those 42 volumes. Thus, that's why I don't think that Dragon Ball is that much different. Remember, at that time, there was that first artist that took over for Bob Kane or Shuster and Siegel. There was that first continuation without their involvement. Dragon Ball had that too, just clearly not nearly as much as those. However, in the end, is it really that much different?

Even Terminator. James Cameron did one and two. Say what you want about three to five, but the series did continue, the actors were on-board, and there are fans getting into it that who couldn't care less. Why do we look at Dragon Ball as different? Just because Dragon Ball is a Japanese property doesn't mean that different rules apply.

[ABED]

I look at it differently because American comics are different than Manga. Manga seem to be more serialized stories written by single artists where as American comics are typically a never ending second act written and drawn by numerous authors. In the case of Terminator, it was a story with a beginning, middle, and end. There was nothing left to tell and that's one of the reasons none of the sequels work.

[TheGreatness25]

Someone accepted the Terminator sequels.

And you talk about how the manga is by a single author, etc., but as I said, look at what the Dragon Ball franchise has brought besides those 42 volumes of manga. Dragon Ball and Dragon Ball Z are really not Akira Toriyama's work. Super really isn't. The movies the games. People accept Super as canon even though I don't think Toriyama did anything with Super except supply the idea (he didn't draw the manga, didn't script the anime, etc.). So why wouldn't someone accept a work without his ideas? If it's good, it's good. The fact is that if Super booted Toriyama tomorrow, it would still be the same series that people accept.

[ABED]

The Terminator sequels after 2 are inferior. They don't feel anything like Cameron's world and didn't add anything to the story besides a bunch of "it turns out you can't change destiny." That wouldn't have been nearly as bad had they had been good.

DBZ is still very much Toriyama's work. Sure, he didn't work on it, but it was lead by him. The reason there was so much filler was because they didn't want to get ahead of him. One of the reasons I think many people don't accept other work besides Toriyama's is because he has a unique style and voice, the same with Cameron. In the case of American comic books, the characters people know and love aren't created fully formed right off the bat typically. The traits we associate with them after decades usually came from a number of different artists.

[TheGreatness25]

All I'm saying is that whether it's good, whether it's not, there are plenty of properties that are taken over from the original author and Dragon Ball is one of them. When it's done well, it's done well and I wouldn't have a problem with a successful Dragon Ball anime, game, manga, etc. that is official, even if it did not involve Toriyama.

[phattangent]

I'll accept Dragon Ball without Toriyama so long as it remains fun.

[Desassina]

I think that Toriyama needs to become a critic of his own work, and let the curators write the script, for they have been following Dragon Ball quite attentively. We already have the third parties working as producers, as far as I can tell through DB Kai, so the people who were responsible for the series' marketing need to become the editors. I'm only asking for a simple role swap to accommodate the needs of today.

[spoiler][/spoiler]

Akira Toriyama goes from author to curator like a few members of the Daizenshuu participated in DB Kai's production.

[Esfír Dedragón]

Pre-2013, I would have said no.

Post-2013, Resurrection F movie, and other things from DBS, I am more comfortable in saying that it would be best for Toriyama to STAY FAR AWAY from his own franchise... but still be around to give some pointers, since I don't trust Toei completely.

[TheGreatness25]

I agree; Toriyama's involvement doesn't guarantee a great product. I'd say to stop with anything Dragon Ball related except the video games (though a yearly release is way too much). But, if we're gonna have more content, I don't care if it's from Toriyama, Toei, Fox, Funimation, Manga, Viz, Madman, or from the trunk of some fan's car; if it's official, I will judge it on its own merits and make a decision as to whether or not I like it. But as long as it is promoted as official, then I will accept it.

[sintzu]

Does any Superman fan really care that Jerry Siegel and Joe Shuster didn't work on it in all this time? Do fans dismiss Batman The Animated Series because Bob Kane didn't work on it?

Batman and other superheroes aren't limited to one continuity (which works in their favor) so the writers can do whatever they want whenever they want but Dragon Ball ? like other manga, that's its main and only continuity so the writers are a lot more limited with what they can do and what they can get away with.

I fully believe that DB still has a lot to offer with or without Toriyama but I don't see it going on for decades on end likes superheroes do.

[TheGreatness25]

Batman and other superheroes aren't limited to one continuity (which works in their favor) so the writers can do whatever they want whenever they want but Dragon Ball ? like other manga...

For now. Batman and other superheroes were a part of one continuity once upon a time and a time came when someone else worked on the series, then someone else, then someone else, and now it is what it is. That's my point: Once upon a time, the things that we accept as having various different people working on them had to have that transitional point where it was taken from the creator and expanded upon by others.

[sintzu]

Post-2013, Resurrection F movie, and other things from DBS, I am more comfortable in saying that it would be best for Toriyama to STAY FAR AWAY from his own franchise.

There are things like Trunks' random powers and changing Vegetto that make me think he was high while writing the script but characters like Zamasu and Beerus prove to me that although he's making mistakes, he's still very much the best person to write DB.

[Esfír Dedragón]

Post-2013, Resurrection F movie, and other things from DBS, I am more comfortable in saying that it would be best for Toriyama to STAY FAR AWAY from his own franchise.

There are things like Trunks' random powers and changing Vegetto that make me think he was high while writing the script but characters like Zamasu and Beerus prove to me that although he's making mistakes, he's still very much the best person to write DB.

Maybe if he was 30 years younger, we wouldn't have half the amount of inconsistencies that Super has. To be honest, stuff like that was one of my worst fears when I heard that we would have a new series. Perhaps it would have been better to just leave it alone. Ironic, given that me and most fans I knew wanted MOAR Dragon Ball since GT.

[DBZAOTA482]

Yes but the problem with a lot of these writers is the work they put out tend to be fanfic-tier without direct influence from Toriyama. Toei in particular have proven time and time again they can't write a good Dragon Ball story entirely on their own as shown with most of the movies and GT.

[sintzu]

Maybe if he was 30 years younger, we wouldn't have half the amount of inconsistencies that Super has.

Perhaps it would have been better to just leave it alone.

Ironic, given that me and most fans I knew wanted MOAR Dragon Ball since GT.

We probably wouldn't cause during the original run he seemed to put more effort into making everything line up unlike now where he's more interested in just having fun.

I felt that the manga ended too soon and I still think the current series has more to offer so I'm not ready to say this yet and I'm not sure I'll ever be.

It'll have to get REALLY bad for me to not want more DB.