"Power levels" from the Daizenshuu

Onikage725 · Post by **Onikage725** » Sun Jul 23, 2006 1:27 pm

I think the backview affect mentioned above about sums it up. People think 120 mil and 150 mil and think awwwwsome, but let me ask this question?

If the difference between base Goku and SSJ Goku is THAT much higher...explain how the Cell Saga is remotely feasible. Come on, tell me. I want someone to explain in a logical, rational way, using evidence from the storyline itself, how Dr. Gero calculated his creations to be above Goku with no knowledge of SSJ, and had them able to compensate for this 50x increase in our heroes. 19 and 20 couldn't even handle Vegeta. Hell, they couldn't even take Piccolo, simply because he did some extra training that Gero wasn't aware of. Did Piccolo's power increase 50 fold during the training gap between Trunks and the Artificial Humans? 19 could barely stand up to Goku, and the guy was having a fricken HEART ATTACK, yet we're supposed to think this pasty montstrosity was somehow built to be 50 times stronger than Goku at base?

And then there's the matter of Piccolo himself. His power jump to Super Namek from his fusion with Kami is difficult enough to comprehend by the numbers, but by this 50x math for Saiya-jin (and the fact that he outclassed regular SSJ) makes the jump all the more inane. Multiplying his power a few times over is one thing, but this theory being defended basically means that Piccolo absorbed a guy who couldn't lay a finger on Nappa or Vegeta in the first Z saga and suddenly his power shot up tens upon tens of times over. I'm sorry, but huh?

Think about it. If early SSJ Goku was 150 mil, then 17 would have been somewhere in the 200 millions or more. And if Piccolo was in the low millions and shot up to rival 17...that's one HELL of an increase.

DevilsAlwaysCry · Post by **DevilsAlwaysCry** » Sun Jul 23, 2006 4:21 pm

Onikage725 wrote:I think the backview affect mentioned above about sums it up. People think 120 mil and 150 mil and think awwwwsome, but let me ask this question?

If the difference between base Goku and SSJ Goku is THAT much higher...explain how the Cell Saga is remotely feasible. Come on, tell me. I want someone to explain in a logical, rational way, using evidence from the storyline itself, how Dr. Gero calculated his creations to be above Goku with no knowledge of SSJ, and had them able to compensate for this 50x increase in our heroes. 19 and 20 couldn't even handle Vegeta. Hell, they couldn't even take Piccolo, simply because he did some extra training that Gero wasn't aware of. Did Piccolo's power increase 50 fold during the training gap between Trunks and the Artificial Humans? 19 could barely stand up to Goku, and the guy was having a fricken HEART ATTACK, yet we're supposed to think this pasty montstrosity was somehow built to be 50 times stronger than Goku at base?

And then there's the matter of Piccolo himself. His power jump to Super Namek from his fusion with Kami is difficult enough to comprehend by the numbers, but by this 50x math for Saiya-jin (and the fact that he outclassed regular SSJ) makes the jump all the more inane. Multiplying his power a few times over is one thing, but this theory being defended basically means that Piccolo absorbed a guy who couldn't lay a finger on Nappa or Vegeta in the first Z saga and suddenly his power shot up tens upon tens of times over. I'm sorry, but huh?

Think about it. If early SSJ Goku was 150 mil, then 17 would have been somewhere in the 200 millions or more. And if Piccolo was in the low millions and shot up to rival 17...that's one HELL of an increase.

Well remember, Piccolo had 3 years to train before the artifical humans arrived and thats plenty of time to become much stronger then he was in the Freeza saga. I mean if training for one day in the Room of Spirit and Time equals one year and Son Goku, Son Gohan, Vegeta, and Trunks all improved that much in one year, I am sure Piccolo could improve a lot in 3 years. I know they are all saiya-jins but 3 years, and for someone as dedicated as Piccolo, would have him show drastic improvement. So I don't think it would be in the low millions, it would be around 20 million-pus I would say. We can't really tell for sure though cause there are no battle power's confirmed after Son Goku's 150,000,000 in the Daizenshuu. We are all just assuming and that means we could all be way off. I think it's just safe to leave it at people either believe the Daizenshuu or not and I don't think anyone is wrong in believing either.

Onikage725 · Post by **Onikage725** » Sun Jul 23, 2006 5:51 pm

All I'm saying is that the 150 mil number doesnt just affect Saiya-jin who transform, it sets a whole new baseline for the rest of the series...one that is not supported by the visual evidence. Like Piccolo, yes, he had plenty of time to train and grow amazingly strong, and he was a fused being, but what he didn't do was go from "I can tangle with 2nd form Freeza at a million" to over a hundred million. He owned Dr. Gero pretty hard, about as hard as Vegeta whupped 19, short of a big finisher ki blast. AND Dr. Gero had drained a large portion of his ki. He had senzu, but I'm just saying take base Gero, who was equal to 19, who gave Goku a hard time even before the disease took full control, and then add a chunk of Piccolo's own reservoir to that...and also all of Yamcha's energy, and unless I'm mistaken, he'd also absorbed a Big Bang Attack, right? I can't remember if he still had both hands when he did that...
All the same, he was way more juiced than 19 was (19 sucked energy off a dying man who could barely gather his ki in the first place), and Piccolo still beat the crap out of him. With the "15 mil" explanation this makes sense. One could even use that 20 mil estimate on Piccolo. With the "150 mil" figures, this means that Piccolo himself, without benefit of Zenkais or transformations (starting with his 1 mil post-Nail) made leaps that almost rivalled SSJ.
No.
That Piccolo could struggle to keep up with a 5x increase is feasible. But considering that the evidence for the 50x increase has pretty much been "Goku's Zenkai was 33x, "Freeza was like whoa," and "SSJ was the end all form," then that does not in any way, shape, or form explain a NAMEK with comparable power.

DevilsAlwaysCry · Post by **DevilsAlwaysCry** » Sun Jul 23, 2006 7:15 pm

Onikage725 wrote:All I'm saying is that the 150 mil number doesnt just affect Saiya-jin who transform, it sets a whole new baseline for the rest of the series...one that is not supported by the visual evidence. Like Piccolo, yes, he had plenty of time to train and grow amazingly strong, and he was a fused being, but what he didn't do was go from "I can tangle with 2nd form Freeza at a million" to over a hundred million. He owned Dr. Gero pretty hard, about as hard as Vegeta whupped 19, short of a big finisher ki blast. AND Dr. Gero had drained a large portion of his ki. He had senzu, but I'm just saying take base Gero, who was equal to 19, who gave Goku a hard time even before the disease took full control, and then add a chunk of Piccolo's own reservoir to that...and also all of Yamcha's energy, and unless I'm mistaken, he'd also absorbed a Big Bang Attack, right? I can't remember if he still had both hands when he did that...
All the same, he was way more juiced than 19 was (19 sucked energy off a dying man who could barely gather his ki in the first place), and Piccolo still beat the crap out of him. With the "15 mil" explanation this makes sense. One could even use that 20 mil estimate on Piccolo. With the "150 mil" figures, this means that Piccolo himself, without benefit of Zenkais or transformations (starting with his 1 mil post-Nail) made leaps that almost rivalled SSJ.
No.
That Piccolo could struggle to keep up with a 5x increase is feasible. But considering that the evidence for the 50x increase has pretty much been "Goku's Zenkai was 33x, "Freeza was like whoa," and "SSJ was the end all form," then that does not in any way, shape, or form explain a NAMEK with comparable power.

Well remember, no. 19 and no. 20 were both very very underwhelming in terms of their power. Son Goku was already about half the man he was due to his virus, and no. 19 still couldn't touch him. I would have to guess that Piccolo's full power at that time was a little less then half of Son Goku's Super Saiya-jin power. I really don't like throwing out numbers though because it makes me seem like a know-it-all and I don't have any idea what kinda battle power Piccolo would have.

Like I said, I think that their is no right or wrong. We are all going off of umconfirmed numbers (like saying Vegeta was around 2,500,000 when he fought Freeza's final form) and it's hard to say what is really right or not. I think both sides of this argument are making good points, but it's all a moot point. I just don't know how we can continue it because their isn't a real final answer. Either you believe the Daizenshuu, or not.

Onikage725 · Post by **Onikage725** » Sun Jul 23, 2006 10:56 pm

Yeah, you do have a point there. This is probably an "agree to disagree" type of situation.

Duo · Post by **Duo** » Mon Jul 24, 2006 4:53 am

Onikage725 wrote:Yeah, you do have a point there. This is probably an "agree to disagree" type of situation.

An intelligent deduction, and exactly why I've stayed out of this. I favor the Daizenshuu and wouldn't give an inch to the other side for any reason, but I know it won't go anywhere. It's just power levels, after all.

Folken-sama · Post by **Folken-sama** » Mon Jul 24, 2006 5:27 am

Xyex wrote:
And that's exactly what it got. 90k to 300k, a 3.3 fold increase, he's greatest boost in power, ever.

I don't know were you got this figure. Where was it written that Gokû went to 300,000 ?

*Bzzzzz!* Incorrect.

Gokû isn't stronger than vegeta ? Gokû didn't trained under a x100 gravity ?

Xyex · Post by **Xyex** » Mon Jul 24, 2006 7:25 am

Well remember, Piccolo had 3 years to train before the artifical humans arrived and thats plenty of time to become much stronger then he was in the Freeza saga.

See, this is exactly the kind of illogical thinking that the Backview Effect can cause. "It's entirely possible for someone to go from 1 million to around 150 million (OR MORE!) with just 3 years of hard training in the normal world!" Ya. Right. That's why Freeza wasn't the strongest being in the universe and there were billions of people running around with powers over 50 trillion. -_-

Yes, Piccolo could train his ass off in that 3 year gap and, maybe, make a 15 fold increase in his power. (Remember, his power is compared to that of a Super Saiya-jin when he fights Gero.) A 150 fold increase, however, is IMPOSSIBLE. Otherwise, he'd have no only kicked Nappa's butt but Vegeta's and even the Ginyu Force (sans Ginyu) during the Saiya-jin Saga.

I mean if training for one day in the Room of Spirit and Time equals one year and Son Goku, Son Gohan, Vegeta, and Trunks all improved that much in one year, I am sure Piccolo could improve a lot in 3 years.

RoSaT training =/= training in the real world. Just like Otherworld training =/= training in the real world. Hence how Goku and Gohan improved more in one day/year in there than in the 3 leading up to the arrival of the Androids.

for someone as dedicated as Piccolo, would have him show drastic improvement.

Yes, but you seem to fail to understand the diffrence between drastic and absurd. 10 to 20 times stronger is drastic. 150+ is absurd.

Well remember, no. 19 and no. 20 were both very very underwhelming in terms of their power.

Backview Effect right there. 19 and 20 could have come close to matching Freeza. Otherwise Goku wouldn't have had the trouble he did even *before* the Heart Virus kicked in fully.

I would have to guess that Piccolo's full power at that time was a little less then half of Son Goku's Super Saiya-jin power.

Depends which SSJ power you mean. His full at that point or 3 years before. Piccolo was compared to the power of an SSJ by (I believe) Krillin. We don't know if he meant the power he'd sensed from Goku or Vegeta against the Androids or that of 3 years ago when Trunks and Goku faced off. Either way, Piccolo's almost as powerful as them.

I don't know were you got this figure. Where was it written that Gokû went to 300,000 ?

That was the 'Accepted level' for many years. Considerablly more resonable and logical than the powers presented in the Daizneshuu.

Gokû isn't stronger than vegeta ? Gokû didn't trained under a x100 gravity ?

Did you not read that entire paragraph? Goku isn't 'by nature' stronger than Vegeta. In fact, at most points in the series up until the Androids/Cell stuff, Vegeta is stronger.

DevilsAlwaysCry · Post by **DevilsAlwaysCry** » Mon Jul 24, 2006 3:46 pm

Xyex wrote:
Well remember, Piccolo had 3 years to train before the artifical humans arrived and thats plenty of time to become much stronger then he was in the Freeza saga.
See, this is exactly the kind of illogical thinking that the Backview Effect can cause. "It's entirely possible for someone to go from 1 million to around 150 million (OR MORE!) with just 3 years of hard training in the normal world!" Ya. Right. That's why Freeza wasn't the strongest being in the universe and there were billions of people running around with powers over 50 trillion. -_-

Yes, Piccolo could train his ass off in that 3 year gap and, maybe, make a 15 fold increase in his power. (Remember, his power is compared to that of a Super Saiya-jin when he fights Gero.) A 150 fold increase, however, is IMPOSSIBLE. Otherwise, he'd have no only kicked Nappa's butt but Vegeta's and even the Ginyu Force (sans Ginyu) during the Saiya-jin Saga.

I mean if training for one day in the Room of Spirit and Time equals one year and Son Goku, Son Gohan, Vegeta, and Trunks all improved that much in one year, I am sure Piccolo could improve a lot in 3 years.
RoSaT training =/= training in the real world. Just like Otherworld training =/= training in the real world. Hence how Goku and Gohan improved more in one day/year in there than in the 3 leading up to the arrival of the Androids.

for someone as dedicated as Piccolo, would have him show drastic improvement.
Yes, but you seem to fail to understand the diffrence between drastic and absurd. 10 to 20 times stronger is drastic. 150+ is absurd.

Well remember, no. 19 and no. 20 were both very very underwhelming in terms of their power.
Backview Effect right there. 19 and 20 could have come close to matching Freeza. Otherwise Goku wouldn't have had the trouble he did even *before* the Heart Virus kicked in fully.

I would have to guess that Piccolo's full power at that time was a little less then half of Son Goku's Super Saiya-jin power.
Depends which SSJ power you mean. His full at that point or 3 years before. Piccolo was compared to the power of an SSJ by (I believe) Krillin. We don't know if he meant the power he'd sensed from Goku or Vegeta against the Androids or that of 3 years ago when Trunks and Goku faced off. Either way, Piccolo's almost as powerful as them.

Jesus Christ, when did I say that Piccolo would have improved his power 150 fold? I said he might have improved enough to be a little less then half of Son Goku's Super Saiya-jin power (I can't say for sure though cause we don't have any numbers to confirm that). And Son Goku wasn't himself the whole fight with no. 19, not just when everyone realized it was the virus.

Can we just end this? I made a great point about this whole arguement being a moot point. Your throwing out numbers and statements that have not ever been confirmed and you act like they are right. You then also make assumptions on what I wrote and go off on this while multi level paragraph that was completly off from what I wrote. Can you please just stop feeding fire to this argument? In the whole 3 pages it has gone on for, it has gotten nowhere and nothing has been (nor will be) resolved.

Onikage725 · Post by **Onikage725** » Mon Jul 24, 2006 7:36 pm

I do want to add one more point though. And if it can be refuted, I openly invite that. I'm still waiting on an argument better than "they were powerful." So far the 50x increase camp is basically offering restatements of their base opinion as proof, as opposed to solid reasoning.

And here's my point. Piccolo just seemed to open controversy, so let's drop it down a notch to the humans. Why would Gero, who had built 17 and 18 to be as pwerful as they were, and had engineered Cell, as well as thinking he was himself pretty decent, even consider Yamcha a snack if the average power was up 30-50 times what it was in the previous saga? Even if he was at an "underwhelming" 100 million, a character in the hundreds of thousands wouldn't have been worth the time.

And, even more pronounced...Tenshinhan vs 2nd stage Cell.

Cell was well above the average SSJ. If his power was over 200 million or pushing 300 million, anything a human character could toss at him should have been met with the response "bitch, please." If we accept that SSJ powers went up 50 fold in one leap, then we have to allow that somehow the other non Saiya-jin made some incredible leaps of their own. Yet the moment someone suggests a human broke the million mark people pretty much just laugh.

Post by **desirecampbell** » Mon Jul 24, 2006 8:15 pm

Um so what was your point? That people believe that Saiyans, with their 'zenkai' healing and their insatiable drive to become stronger, might be able to become more powerful than humans? Yeah, I think that is pretty irrefutable.

Also, I'd like to point out that just because Goku's power increased 50 fold the first time he was a Super Saiyan, doesn't mean his power was just 'multiplied by 50'. There's nothing that says Super Siayan works the same way Kaioken does. Perhaps Super Saiyan simply increases by a, more or less, set amount. This would explain why Super Siayn seems retardedly powerful the first time, and less and less powerful as the Saiayns get stronger.

Oh, and as a side-note, there are some of us who think SSj Goku and Freeza were less than 5 million.

Onikage725 · Post by **Onikage725** » Mon Jul 24, 2006 8:22 pm

desirecampbell wrote:Um so what was your point? That people believe that Saiyans, with their 'zenkai' healing and their insatiable drive to become stronger, might be able to become more powerful than humans? Yeah, I think that is pretty irrefutable.

I wasn't refuting that at all. My point was that if the SSJ power up was as ridiculously high as the Daizenshuu said, and 2nd stage Cell was greater than the average SSJ by far, then Tenshinhan shouldn't have been able to hold him at bay. I don't care how much he can push Kikoho, with these numbers being suggested it's just an outlandish concept.

Post by **desirecampbell** » Mon Jul 24, 2006 8:35 pm

Onikage725 wrote:I wasn't refuting that at all. My point was that if the SSJ power up was as ridiculously high as the Daizenshuu said, and 2nd stage Cell was greater than the average SSJ by far, then Tenshinhan shouldn't have been able to hold him at bay. I don't care how much he can push Kikoho, with these numbers being suggested it's just an outlandish concept.

Oh, the Kikoho. Yeah that was bullshit. The humans couldn't do anything to Gero, let alone second-stage Cell. I mean, yeah, maybe Tien could've blown Cell into the ground once if he used all his strength - but not again, and again, and again, and again...

DevilsAlwaysCry · Post by **DevilsAlwaysCry** » Mon Jul 24, 2006 8:53 pm

desirecampbell wrote:
Onikage725 wrote:I wasn't refuting that at all. My point was that if the SSJ power up was as ridiculously high as the Daizenshuu said, and 2nd stage Cell was greater than the average SSJ by far, then Tenshinhan shouldn't have been able to hold him at bay. I don't care how much he can push Kikoho, with these numbers being suggested it's just an outlandish concept.
Oh, the Kikoho. Yeah that was bullshit. The humans couldn't do anything to Gero, let alone second-stage Cell. I mean, yeah, maybe Tenshinhan could've blown Cell into the ground once if he used all his strength - but not again, and again, and again, and again...

I think that was more just to show us that Tenshinhan gave it his all and Cell underestimated Tenshinhan by a large ammount.

DevilsAlwaysCry · Post by **DevilsAlwaysCry** » Mon Jul 24, 2006 9:05 pm

Onikage725 wrote:I do want to add one more point though. And if it can be refuted, I openly invite that. I'm still waiting on an argument better than "they were powerful." So far the 50x increase camp is basically offering restatements of their base opinion as proof, as opposed to solid reasoning.

And here's my point. Piccolo just seemed to open controversy, so let's drop it down a notch to the humans. Why would Gero, who had built 17 and 18 to be as pwerful as they were, and had engineered Cell, as well as thinking he was himself pretty decent, even consider Yamcha a snack if the average power was up 30-50 times what it was in the previous saga? Even if he was at an "underwhelming" 100 million, a character in the hundreds of thousands wouldn't have been worth the time.

And, even more pronounced...Tenshinhan vs 2nd stage Cell.

Cell was well above the average SSJ. If his power was over 200 million or pushing 300 million, anything a human character could toss at him should have been met with the response "bitch, please." If we accept that SSJ powers went up 50 fold in one leap, then we have to allow that somehow the other non Saiya-jin made some incredible leaps of their own. Yet the moment someone suggests a human broke the million mark people pretty much just laugh.

I never thought that no. 19 or no. 20 had a battle power around 100 million, I think it was far less then that (I would guess less then Piccolo's max). I also don't think the humans battle power increased as much as the Saiya-jins or Piccolo because humans, by nature in DBZ, are much weaker then the Saiya-jins and Namek Saijins.

Folken-sama · Post by **Folken-sama** » Tue Jul 25, 2006 7:23 am

Xyex wrote:
I don't know were you got this figure. Where was it written that Gokû went to 300,000 ?
That was the 'Accepted level' for many years. Considerablly more resonable and logical than the powers presented in the Daizneshuu.

I still don't know where you got this, since it doesn't exist in any reliable source...

As for "more reasonable" and "logical", obviously it's not.

Akira · Post by **Akira** » Tue Jul 25, 2006 12:58 pm

Okay, first off, The thing that rises tensions is when someone declares a topic pointless and decides in thier infinite wisdom that it is time for everyone to stop talking about it. Bottom line, if you are done with the topic, stop replying and move on to another one. This is what it IS, a power level discussion. Those that wish to continue to do so, as long as it is in a calm and respectful (and hopefully intelligent) manner should be allowed to continue it. To continue to post things to the effect of "Well this is pointless, I already got the last word in to end it so everyone be quiet now" only serves to stir the pot.

It would be one thing if someone was rattling off random numbers and claiming them to be fact. Or if we had some noobish types in here arguing nutty points that have no base whatsoever. That is not the case here though, everyone has contributed in a pleasant manner, and for the most part been rather respectful of the opinions of others. Please allow those of us that wish to continue to do so.

I will let this be my point for now, and will continue with other details I wish to add in my next response.

DevilsAlwaysCry · Post by **DevilsAlwaysCry** » Tue Jul 25, 2006 2:36 pm

Akira wrote:Okay, first off, The thing that rises tensions is when someone declares a topic pointless and decides in thier infinite wisdom that it is time for everyone to stop talking about it. Bottom line, if you are done with the topic, stop replying and move on to another one. This is what it IS, a power level discussion. Those that wish to continue to do so, as long as it is in a calm and respectful (and hopefully intelligent) manner should be allowed to continue it. To continue to post things to the effect of "Well this is pointless, I already got the last word in to end it so everyone be quiet now" only serves to stir the pot.

It would be one thing if someone was rattling off random numbers and claiming them to be fact. Or if we had some noobish types in here arguing nutty points that have no base whatsoever. That is not the case here though, everyone has contributed in a pleasant manner, and for the most part been rather respectful of the opinions of others. Please allow those of us that wish to continue to do so.

I will let this be my point for now, and will continue with other details I wish to add in my next response.

I guess your talking to me right? I don't have a problem with this discussion, but I have a problem when other people argue how one's point of view is illogical and then telling them it's wrong. Where does it say that the Daizenshuu battle power numbers are illogical, and there for, wrong? I don't think I have infinite wisdom and I haven't ever stated that. Also, more then a few people here are rattling off numbers like they were fact.

The Chibi Kiriyama · Post by **The Chibi Kiriyama** » Tue Jul 25, 2006 8:12 pm

Where to start...

Vegeta said (whilst Goku was in his natural state) that he was completely different, and apparently the power increase was indeed that tremendous- he went from believing he was a Super Saiyan after his zenkai to believing Goku could be the Super Saiyan. No Kaio-ken aura up at all, and yet he was so amazed by Goku's power he was willing to say he could be the one to beat Freeza.

Now let's look at the comments that say the two were straight-down-the-middle in power:

Neither Gives An Inch!

This means that even at the same power Freeza killed Vegeta with Toriyama is directly implying that the two are dead even.

Freeza: "You're stronger than I thought. I'm a bit surprised. I didn't think anyone else in the universe surpassed Captain Ginyu."

Now let's think about this statement. Vegeta was stronger than Ginyu, so much so that he matched Freeza in power. Piccolo was so strong after assimilation that he could feasibly beat a Freeza "over a million", even a Freeza who had powered up after stating his power was above a million in his Stage Two state. Then Freeza revealed his power increases hugely from transformation to transformation. This same Piccolo is completely outstipped by Freeza's third transformed state, and goes on to say that the two fighters (still using only a fraction of their tremendous power reserves) were god-like in comparison. So there is a huge difference between the Goku fighting Freeza and the who fought Ginyu, much less Ginyu himself. So the conclusion here is not that Goku is slightly stronger but that this is a statement made in retrospect.

Freeza: "I didn't think you'd be this good. You're the first one who has ever put a speck of dust on my body...besides my parents."

This goes to show that Goku (again, no Kaio-ken aura or outside augmentation of his power) is a viable match for Freeza's sheer strength.

Piccolo: "Freeza's only toying with him..."

Freeza must be much stronger, right? Nope. Next statement:

Piccolo: "But there's no point in worrying. ..Goku's not giving it his all either..."

Piccolo recognizes that both are only gauging strength and are no place near all-out.

Freeza: "I suppose that's enough warmup. I'll have to get serious soon..."

Freeza recognizes this as well, and claims the attacks Goku threw his way were part of a dismissive warmup.

Now, let's examine the next fight in question. Goku's eyes blank out, and there is an aura that flashes over him; these are signs of the Kaio-ken, which Goku has stated before does two things: 1) augment his power by folds and 2) (when used properly) work in bursts that last the span of a heartbeat. Freeza sees this and avoids the attack. The battle spills into the two of them fighting it out. Notice that now there is no Kaio-ken aura to speak of. The two fight evenly. Goku then uses another Kaio-ken aura to catch Freeza offguard and throw him away. Freeza comes back with a flight aura but is stopped. The fight continues and Goku exploits an opening, forcing Freeza to end it with a punch.

What does this tell us?

A) This cannot be the 10-fold Kaio-ken Kaio speaks of Goku using later, as Freeza would have never dodged it. It can't even be a Kaio-ken times three, as the power difference would have overwhelmed Freeza. This is a run of the mill Kaio-ken.

B) The two, in their normal states, are dead even in every respect even without a power augmentation to either side.

Then Freeza uses 50% of his maximum power and completely outstrips Goku. This next phrase is critical to the entire conversation:

Kaio: "Sorry...But he's already using the 10-fold Kaio-ken..."

Logically, Goku has to have used it. Kaio tells us this much. But pre-50% for the reasons I stated Goku could not possibly have used the 10-fold Kaio-ken aura. This means that the aura that flashes over him post-50%before Kaio's comment is indeed a 10-fold Kaio-ken. But- and this is pivotal- Freeza easily counters with a kick that is so powerful it knocks him out of the 10-fold Kaio-ken aura. What does this mean? It means that Goku using a Kaio-ken aura that made him 10-fold stronger than himself (the same Goku who fought an even fight with Freeza) is now much weaker than Freeza, who is only using 50% of his power. Goku then tries a 20-fold Kaio-ken aura that (by logic and basic fact about the Kaio-ken) gives him the power to do slight damage to 50% Freeza in the burst it is sustained for. Even then, 50% Freeza is so strong he avoids the attack long enough to break away from it and stop the resulting Kamehameha one-handed. And did he take any damage from a Goku 20-fold stronger and shooting a Kamehameha his way?

Kuririn: "That Kamehameha should've packed a huge punch...why doesn't Freeza show any damage...?!"

To finalize this in a graph....

Goku = Freeza
KK Goku > Freeza (for a heartbeat)
Goku <<< 50% Freeza
KKx10 Goku << 50% Freeza
KKx20 Goku w/ Kamehameha < 50% Freeza

So, given these results, are the Daizenshuu's interpreted range that amazing? There is a massive gap between 50% Freeza and Goku to be accounted for, and Goku couldn't even make up for the respective reserve difference with an aura that temporarily made him 10 times stronger than himself. Mind you, still remembering that this is a person who only moments ago was only superior to Freeza during the span of a hearbeat using the basic Kaio-ken to double his power (without it, completely even to Freeza). Given the huge power discrepancy and the basic info about the Kaio-ken established again and again, it's simple arithmetic to compensate for it. When you do, you end up with large numbers. But does that make it wrong?

Onikage725 · Post by **Onikage725** » Tue Jul 25, 2006 10:19 pm

Well laid out points, but I should point out one thing. Given that the argument is that the Daizenshuu added an extra zero (in essence, multiplied the two combatants by 10), the ratios you described are exactly the same with either theory. Goku at 3 million is half as strong as Freeza at 6. Goku at 30 million, half as strong as Freeza at 60.

Personally, the reason I side with the lower numbers is because they aren't low at all. I think there's a tendency to look at the first number and ignore the following zeroes. I mean, look at it this way- Piccolo was slightly stronger than second stage Freeza right? When Freeza hit that third stage, Piccolo could not touch him. He was thoroughly defeated. If 2nd stage was 1 mil (or just above) and 4th stage started off at 3 mil, then 3rd stage was no more than 2 mil above Piccolo. Possibly less. It was more than enough to lay him out.

That also makes me think about Vegeta earlier in the saga. From 24k to just under 30k he went from Zarbon's plaything to total domination. That's a "mere" 6k range, and the improvement shown was drastic.

Oh, and on my Tenshinhan/Cell example before, my point was that with the extra 0 in play it takes things to a whole new level. The scene in question was pretty ridiculous, but there's a difference between ridiculous and imposible.