Is Bulma immoral

[WittyUsername]

It’s absolutely horrible that Bulma left her upstanding murderous bandit for another one, quite frankly.

Yamcha was a petty bandit. Vegeta was a genocidal space pirate who tried to destroy the Earth. Not really an apples to apples comparison.

[jjgp1112]

They were warriors challenging other warriors in a life-or-death battle for the planet. The Z-Senshi chose to fight and they lost. It's that simple.

The Saiyans were there with the express purpose of stealing the Dragon Balls AND wiping out the entire planet so they can sell it off on top of that. Vegeta even says as much. They introduce themselves by blowing up a city for shits and giggles.

The Saiyans are a warrior race. They are fighters at heart who love and crave battle. Like I said, they were warriors challenging other warriors in battle. It's what the Z-Senshi were doing there. They weren't some poor victims who were helplessly slaughtered by the Saiyans. They were martial artists who fought and lost. I can see why someone might not hold anything against Vegeta in the long run.

My man, you completely ignored the part where they're on the planet to slaughter all of its people. They weren't there for a nice sporting battle or whatever other fairtytale nonsense you keep making up, they were there to kill people, and the Earthlings who were killed were fighting to stop him. Even Piccolo of all people was fighting for the Earth's sake, even if for nefarious reasons. They weren't just fighting for fighting's sake and happened to die - they were fighting because Vegeta and Nappa were specifically trying to commit genocide on their planet.

I cannot understand a single thought in your brain.

[Koitsukai]

They literally were "some poor victims who were helplessly slaughtered by the Saiyans"... they never asked for that bout in the first place, they didn't even go out of their way, the saiyans sought them out where they were. After wiping out a city, lol.

[Cipher]

Vegeta has done things 1000 times worse than extramarital intercourse, fam

Yeah, like father a child out of wedlock.

I think there’s someone whose consent Vegeta and Bulma forgot to get. (Dende’s.)

[jjgp1112]

Vegeta has done things 1000 times worse than extramarital intercourse, fam

Yeah, like father a child out of wedlock.

I think there’s someone whose consent Vegeta and Bulma forgot to get. (Dende’s.)

Silly Cipher, Dende wasn't God at that point.

[TheGreatness25]

The Saiyans were there with the express purpose of stealing the Dragon Balls AND wiping out the entire planet so they can sell it off on top of that. Vegeta even says as much. They introduce themselves by blowing up a city for shits and giggles.

The Saiyans are a warrior race. They are fighters at heart who love and crave battle. Like I said, they were warriors challenging other warriors in battle. It's what the Z-Senshi were doing there. They weren't some poor victims who were helplessly slaughtered by the Saiyans. They were martial artists who fought and lost. I can see why someone might not hold anything against Vegeta in the long run.

My man, you completely ignored the part where they're on the planet to slaughter all of its people. They weren't there for a nice sporting battle or whatever other fairtytale nonsense you keep making up, they were there to kill people, and the Earthlings who were killed were fighting to stop him. Even Piccolo of all people was fighting for the Earth's sake, even if for nefarious reasons. They weren't just fighting for fighting's sake and happened to die - they were fighting because Vegeta and Nappa were specifically trying to commit genocide on their planet.

I cannot understand a single thought in your brain.

But Vegeta cried that one time, so it's okay. They took him from his father when he was just a little boy and forced him to commit all of those murders. He didn't know what he was doing!

Again, unfortunately this happens because Akira Toriyama wrote the story in a way that tries to distract us from all of those horrible things he's done. Goku kept him alive to spar with him, he was pushed to the forefront because he was helping the protagonists, and then, Bulma was all like, "Hey! You're cute! Come live with me!" And that was kind of it. It's almost like Toriyama wrote him to be this evil, horrible person and then he became popular, so Toriyama just went with it and we're all meant to forget about all of the horrible things he's done. At least until the Boo arc where he does it again but now he "feels bad," so it's okay. And nothing before that little incident happened.

Fans give him a pass because that's what the writing does. He was written as "Oh he's not so bad; he was just a great old family man underneath the killing machine."

[PurestEvil]

They were warriors challenging other warriors in a life-or-death battle for the planet. The Z-Senshi chose to fight and they lost. It's that simple.

The Saiyans were there with the express purpose of stealing the Dragon Balls AND wiping out the entire planet so they can sell it off on top of that. Vegeta even says as much. They introduce themselves by blowing up a city for shits and giggles.

The Saiyans are a warrior race. They are fighters at heart who love and crave battle. Like I said, they were warriors challenging other warriors in battle. It's what the Z-Senshi were doing there. They weren't some poor victims who were helplessly slaughtered by the Saiyans. They were martial artists who fought and lost. I can see why someone might not hold anything against Vegeta in the long run.

This was not some jousting duel you headass, the Z fighters were protecting the Earth's population from being annihilated by Vegeta and Nappa. They were most probably going to be killed off anyways if they did not stand up to fight.
Even if it was some duel like you said, why WOULDN'T they hold a grudge against the guys who tried to kill them? They clearly hated each other, and it was a fight to the death; hard feelings were gonna be kept.

[PurestEvil]

Vegeta has done things 1000 times worse than extramarital intercourse, fam

Yeah, like father a child out of wedlock.

I think there’s someone whose consent Vegeta and Bulma forgot to get. (Dende’s.)

Father a child out of wedlock? He was there to raise him for the first year

[MyVisionity]

My man, you completely ignored the part where they're on the planet to slaughter all of its people. They weren't there for a nice sporting battle or whatever other fairtytale nonsense you keep making up, they were there to kill people, and the Earthlings who were killed were fighting to stop him. Even Piccolo of all people was fighting for the Earth's sake, even if for nefarious reasons. They weren't just fighting for fighting's sake and happened to die - they were fighting because Vegeta and Nappa were specifically trying to commit genocide on their planet.

It doesn't matter what the reasons were. At the end of the day the Saiyans and the Z-Senshi were warriors challenging each other to battle. Whether for the sake of defending/destroying the planet or for the sake of combat itself, that's what martial artists do.

Even if it was some duel like you said, why WOULDN'T they hold a grudge against the guys who tried to kill them?

Because they are martial artists. It's what they do. Ultimately the art of fighting and battle itself outweighs any kind of hard feelings about killing.

And since Bulma isn't a fighter herself, then she would have even less of a reason to hold a grudge.

[PurestEvil]

Even if it was some duel like you said, why WOULDN'T they hold a grudge against the guys who tried to kill them?

Because they are martial artists. It's what they do. Ultimately the art of fighting and battle itself outweighs any kind of hard feelings about killing.

And since Bulma isn't a fighter herself, then she would have even less of a reason to hold a grudge.

Why does them being martial artists matter? They were not fighting for self-improvement or for pleasure, it was a fight THEIR AND THE PLANET'S SURVIVAL.

[TheGreatness25]

My man, you completely ignored the part where they're on the planet to slaughter all of its people. They weren't there for a nice sporting battle or whatever other fairtytale nonsense you keep making up, they were there to kill people, and the Earthlings who were killed were fighting to stop him. Even Piccolo of all people was fighting for the Earth's sake, even if for nefarious reasons. They weren't just fighting for fighting's sake and happened to die - they were fighting because Vegeta and Nappa were specifically trying to commit genocide on their planet.

It doesn't matter what the reasons were. At the end of the day the Saiyans and the Z-Senshi were warriors challenging each other to battle. Whether for the sake of defending/destroying the planet or for the sake of combat itself, that's what martial artists do.

Even if it was some duel like you said, why WOULDN'T they hold a grudge against the guys who tried to kill them?

Because they are martial artists. It's what they do. Ultimately the art of fighting and battle itself outweighs any kind of hard feelings about killing.

And since Bulma isn't a fighter herself, then she would have even less of a reason to hold a grudge.

I'm not going to jump all over you, but I'd like to understand. So you're saying that it's okay because they're warriors and that's what warriors do? Would you say the same for serial killers? "Well, I know that he killed 38 people, but he's a serial killer; that's what they do." Or "I know that he set a building on fire and murdered 50 people, but he was just motivated by setting a fire -- he's an arsonist, that's what they do."

I mean... yeah, they're warriors. And killers are killers. But that doesn't mean that their actions can just be excused because it falls into the "that's just what they do" category.

Let's put it like this: yes, Saiyans are warriors and they fight to kill, but their actions are evil to the protagonists who should stop them and not pal around with them -- after all, they're the heroes and that's what heroes do.

And Bulma should have every reason to hold a grudge because of the fact that she's not a fighter. She would understand this weird warrior code even less. To her, this guy ordered the murder of her friends, boyfriend, and the entire planet including her and her family.

[BWri]

Her attraction to an evil person like Vegeta is primal so I can't exactly blame her for that,

I can’t say I agree, I don’t see anything that is in our nature being attracted to evil people

My point was that you can't control attraction. It is hard wired into you through evolution. If anyone is to blame for Bulma being attracted to Vegeta it's her ancestors and genetics. She can control how she reacts to that attraction though.

As far as being attracted to evil, that's hard-wired into people too. What's evil to people is subjective, but in this case, Vegeta killing Namekians to get a Dragon Ball, it's unrepentant killing, which is a conqueror's trait. Conquerors are attractive because power is attractive. Evil is typically self-serving.

[BWri]

As a kid, I thought, "Man, Vegeta is so awesome!" But as an adult, I did find it horrible that at one point, nobody seemed horrified at the horrible things that he's done.

BUT, unfortunately, Toriyama wrote him to be basically forgiven for everything. We're meant to either forgive or turn a blind eye to everything he's done.

I didn't until he finally acknowledged his part in the Namekian slaughter during the Moro arc and repented for it. I held it against him for several decades lol.

I always found it strange that no one else raised a stink about it. As a kid, I think this sparked the idea that Goku and his friends had a different code of morality than normal folks. I didn't realize how different until I was an adult.


**how did this thread become so hilarious? Just read all the responses and I'm dying here

[TheGreatness25]

As a kid, I thought, "Man, Vegeta is so awesome!" But as an adult, I did find it horrible that at one point, nobody seemed horrified at the horrible things that he's done.

BUT, unfortunately, Toriyama wrote him to be basically forgiven for everything. We're meant to either forgive or turn a blind eye to everything he's done.

I didn't until he finally acknowledged his part in the Namekian slaughter during the Moro arc and repented for it. I held it against him for several decades lol.

I always found it strange that no one else raised a stink about it. As a kid, I think this sparked the idea that Goku and his friends had a different code of morality than normal folks. I didn't realize how different until I was an adult.

I think the Dragon Balls take away a lot of accountability. It's like, "Well, it all worked out!" Though, that didn't work for the Namekians that Vegeta killed. I think that we as an audience -- and perhaps anyone involved in the writing -- has been desensitized to killing because it's always like, "Agh, they'll just be brought back with the Dragon Balls!" Many fans never stop to think, "No! This piece of garbage murdered in cold blood and didn't care and the only reason it all ended well is because someone else collected the Dragon Balls and fixed his mistakes!"

[SupremeKai25]

The first thing the Saiyans did upon landing on Earth was destroy an entire city full of innocent civilians:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6i0Ub6BH1PA

The Saiyans were murderers and psychopaths just like Moro or Majin Buu, destroying countless innocent lives just for sport.

To pretend that the Saiyans were just misunderstood or somehow redeemable is foolish. Vegeta himself did not redeem himself and will go to Hell once he dies.

[MyVisionity]

Why does them being martial artists matter? They were not fighting for self-improvement or for pleasure, it was a fight THEIR AND THE PLANET'S SURVIVAL.

It matters because as martial artists, they would be placing their pride and commitment to the martial arts ahead of their own deaths. So they wouldn't necessarily hold a grudge, or at least not one that they couldn't look past at some point.

So you're saying that it's okay because they're warriors and that's what warriors do?

No, I'm not saying that warriors are killers. I'm saying that their being warriors outweighs things like killing and holding grudges. Especially when life or death battles occur so often.

It's not about excusing their actions so much as it is about understanding them.

And Bulma should have every reason to hold a grudge because of the fact that she's not a fighter. She would understand this weird warrior code even less. To her, this guy ordered the murder of her friends, boyfriend, and the entire planet including her and her family.

True, that is one way to look at it. But I still think that she can look past it partly because she knows Vegeta was a warrior fighting other warriors, even if she may not necessarily understand it. And also because they were all resurrected.

[PurestEvil]

Why does them being martial artists matter? They were not fighting for self-improvement or for pleasure, it was a fight THEIR AND THE PLANET'S SURVIVAL.

It matters because as martial artists, they would be placing their pride and commitment to the martial arts ahead of their own deaths. So they wouldn't necessarily hold a grudge, or at least not one that they couldn't look past at some point.

Of course they couldn't keep their grudge against Vegeta, they kind of had to get used to him being there with the whole Android crisis and such, but that is besides the point.
In that scenario, their commitment to martial arts was at best a secondary priority. They improved themselves for the SOLE purpose of protecting themselves and the planet.

[Jack Bz]

It being a warrior code thing is a strange argument because the people who actually get killed in this battle are probably the ones who hold their grudges the longest. Tenshinhan especially hates Vegeta's guts basically the whole time.

It's everyone else that forgives Vegeta more easily for the most part.

PS this thread truly is fantastic, I've laughed multiple times

[precita]

The first thing the Saiyans did upon landing on Earth was destroy an entire city full of innocent civilians:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6i0Ub6BH1PA

The Saiyans were murderers and psychopaths just like Moro or Majin Buu, destroying countless innocent lives just for sport.

To pretend that the Saiyans were just misunderstood or somehow redeemable is foolish. Vegeta himself did not redeem himself and will go to Hell once he dies.

Only Nappa killed innocent people. Obviously if you're using the anime a few extra scenes were thrown in there, but Vegeta was never shown killing a normal human. Nappa wiped out that city, then killed Goku's friends.

Vegeta himself never killed anyone on Earth, just like Piccolo himself never killed any of the good guys (King Piccolo is not him), same with 17/18. The closest we got to a reformed villain killing good guys is of course Majin Boo, but at least there you have the excuse of all the evil being fumed out of him into a different form whereas Fat Boo just retains the personality of the Grand Supreme Kai.

It was always rather obvious Toriyama made sure any reformed villain never killed main characters. That's why I was having mental breakdowns when Freeza joined the TOP because it seemed like they were doing the same thing with him, but at least Freeza stayed evil and wouldn't join Goku and co.

Remember if this was real life, none of this would hold up in the court of law. You can't be found guilty for another persons actions.

[Koitsukai]

The first thing the Saiyans did upon landing on Earth was destroy an entire city full of innocent civilians:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6i0Ub6BH1PA

The Saiyans were murderers and psychopaths just like Moro or Majin Buu, destroying countless innocent lives just for sport.

To pretend that the Saiyans were just misunderstood or somehow redeemable is foolish. Vegeta himself did not redeem himself and will go to Hell once he dies.

Only Nappa killed innocent people. Obviously if you're using the anime a few extra scenes were thrown in there, but Vegeta was never shown killing a normal human. Nappa wiped out that city, then killed Goku's friends.

Vegeta himself never killed anyone on Earth, just like Piccolo himself never killed any of the good guys (King Piccolo is not him), same with 17/18. The closest we got to a reformed villain killing good guys is of course Majin Boo, but at least there you have the excuse of all the evil being fumed out of him into a different form whereas Fat Boo just retains the personality of the Grand Supreme Kai.

It was always rather obvious Toriyama made sure any reformed villain never killed main characters. That's why I was having mental breakdowns when Freeza joined the TOP because it seemed like they were doing the same thing with him, but at least Freeza stayed evil and wouldn't join Goku and co.

Remember if this was real life, none of this would hold up in the court of law. You can't be found guilty for another persons actions.

You understand that Nappa was Vegeta's lackey, right? he wasn't the bad cop while Geets was the good cop.

So, any dictator walks free, because they had other people do their dirty work, then.