Canon or not? That is the(my) question.

Olivier Hague · Post by **Olivier Hague** » Sun May 27, 2007 10:47 pm

Dayspring wrote:he says he considers everything Dragonball to be official, ie canon.

Hmm... "Official" isn't the same thing as "canon". Or things would be a lot easier to sort out, really. ^_^;
And when he calls "Dragon Ball GT" a "side story", for example...

Phenomenol · Post by **Phenomenol** » Wed May 30, 2007 12:02 am

Conan the SSJ wrote:In the words of Oliver Hague; source please?

Here........

TORIYAMA AKIRA SUPER INTERVIEW
From Daizenshuu Vol. 6: Movies & TV Specials. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Interviewer: How would you position the animated movie Dragon Ball?

Toriyama Akira: I consider the movies to be a 'different dimension' from the original, printed comic edition. With the movies, I become part of the audience.

http://db.schuby.org/daizex/viewtopic.p ... 76&start=0

Anime/Manga is Canon!

Olivier Hague · Post by **Olivier Hague** » Wed May 30, 2007 12:12 am

Phenomenol wrote:Anime/Manga is Canon!

The movies are anime, technically.
And the TV series refers to some of the movies, so...

Supa Saiya-Jin Tullece · Post by **Supa Saiya-Jin Tullece** » Wed May 30, 2007 6:43 pm

Alright, it's obvious that the manga and anime have completely seperate cannons. I can easily fit half of the movies into the cannon:

Bardock Special
DragonBall Series
Garlic Jr Movie
Saiyan, Namek, And Frieza Sagas (Eps 1-107)
Garlic Jr Saga (Eps 108-117)
Trunks Saga (Eps 118-125)
Cooler's Revenge
Return of Cooler
Android Saga (Eps 126-139)
Cell Saga Part 1 (Eps 140-174)
Broly: The Legendary Super Saiyan
Cell Saga Part 2 (Eps 175-194)
Bojack Unbound
Saiyaman Saga (Eps 195-209)
Broly: Second Comming
The remainder of the Buu Saga
Wrath of the Dragon
Uub Saga

1 - Garlic Jr Movie -

Goku never mentions Gohan being his son (to my knowing). Probably why Krillin thinks that he's babysitting when they see him for a 2nd time.

5 - Cooler's Revenge -

Cooler's revenge fits in the three year period before the Androids arrive. Since Goku hadn't had a need to go Super Saiya-Jin, he might have lost the magic touch, being full of rage by the time the bird dies in his hands.

6 - Return of Cooler -

If I remember correctly, no one except for Cooler and Goku see Super Saiya-Jin Vegeta, and Goku just happens to be knocked out when Vegeta arrives to defeat #19. This is why it came as a suprise to most everyone else.

8 - Broly: The legendary Super Saiyan -

Takes place during the three days skipped in the filler between the announcing of the Cell Games and the day they take place.

9 - Bojack Unbound -

Obviously takes place shortly after the Cell Saga ends.

10 - Broly: 2nd Comming -

Takes place after Goten and Videl learn how to fly, but before the Tenka'ichi Budokai begins.

13 - Wrath of the Dragon -

Takes place after the Buu Saga and before the Uub Saga.

Olivier Hague · Post by **Olivier Hague** » Wed May 30, 2007 7:08 pm

Supa Saiya-Jin Tullece wrote:I can easily fit half of the movies into the cannon

I hope you won't mind if I fire it once you're done. :þ

1 - Garlic Jr Movie -

Goku never mentions Gohan being his son (to my knowing). Probably why Krillin thinks that he's babysitting when they see him for a 2nd time.

You've got to be...

6 - Return of Cooler -

If I remember correctly, no one except for Cooler and Goku see Super Saiya-Jin Vegeta, and Goku just happens to be knocked out when Vegeta arrives to defeat #19. This is why it came as a suprise to most everyone else.

Except Dende already is the new Kami-Sama.

8 - Broly: The legendary Super Saiyan -

Takes place during the three days skipped in the filler between the announcing of the Cell Games and the day they take place.

That was in May, and the movie takes place in early Spring.

10 - Broly: 2nd Comming -

Takes place after Goten and Videl learn how to fly, but before the Tenka'ichi Budokai begins.

And it has to happen after that other movie with Broly that can't be canonic, so...

13 - Wrath of the Dragon -

Takes place after the Buu Saga and before the Uub Saga.

And yet, Gokû appears to be alive and well during the whole movie.

Why are some people still trying so hard to make these movies fit in the timeline anyway? I really don't get it. ^^;

Anonymous Friend · Post by **Anonymous Friend** » Wed May 30, 2007 7:56 pm

Olivier Hague wrote:
Supa Saiya-Jin Tullece wrote:13 - Wrath of the Dragon -

Takes place after the Buu Saga and before the Uub Saga.
And yet, Gokû appears to be alive and well during the whole movie.

Why are some people still trying so hard to make these movies fit in the timeline anyway? I really don't get it. ^^;

Am I missing something? Why wouldn't Goku be "alive and well"?

I've stopped trying to make them fit in the main anime canon. I like the idea of them taking place in alternate timelines. Having them in the show's timeline takes away the fact that they're movies. A true movie that's based off a TV show should not have anything with the show. Regardless of what the X-Files say.

Olivier Hague · Post by **Olivier Hague** » Wed May 30, 2007 8:01 pm

Anonymous Friend wrote:Am I missing something? Why wouldn't Goku be "alive and well"?

My bad, I misread. I thought it said before and after the Majin-Boo arc.
("Uub saga"? saga? really?)

Anonymous Friend · Post by **Anonymous Friend** » Wed May 30, 2007 8:20 pm

Olivier Hague wrote:("Uub saga"? saga? really?)

If were gonna call Trunks' five episode stint a saga, why not Uub's three episodes.

Olivier Hague · Post by **Olivier Hague** » Wed May 30, 2007 8:48 pm

Anonymous Friend wrote:If were gonna call Trunks' five episode stint a saga, why not Uub's three episodes.

Well, I'm not gonna call Trunks' five episode stint a "saga"...
(I wouldn't even call any arc in the series a "saga", actually)

Dayspring · Post by **Dayspring** » Fri Jun 01, 2007 3:39 pm

Maybe we should say "continuity" instead of "Canon." That way certain movies still work with the anime without causing too much of a problem.

Movie 1 is obviously part of the anime continuity.

Movie 3 can be chocked up to a major filler-enduced plothole (a la Dr Frappe created #8, Piccolo destroyed Goku's pod).

Movie 5 can simply have mild, ignorable plotholes (a la Trunks warns of #19 and #20, but really meant #17 and #18).

Movie 7: Special. Should and can take place in Timeline 4.

Movie 9 could be considered equal to filler events: the only reason movie 9 doesn't work is because Trunks isn't old enough, yet still older than when he returned to his timeline. Added to this, Bulma specifically lists off who he killed in his timeline (#17 and #18). Not Cell? That's because a good 2 years still need to go by in Trunks' timeline before Cell shows up. To work around this problem, just consider Trunks as having gone back in time an extra time: 1 after defeating #17 and #18 and his incorrect new age chocked up to the 8 months he waited to recharge the time machine. The second would be canon moment after he defeats Cell 2 years later. In other words, movie 9 is a filler voyage back in time between Goku's death and the death of Future Cell.

Movie 13 could be seen as either having a mild, filler-esque ignorable inconsistency (DBs can only grant 1 wish in this movie) or, since Toriyama considers GT as a side-quest, as a prequel to GT instead of as part of the anime continuity.

Bardock Special: Canon.

Trunks Special: Anime Canon.

Phenomenol · Post by **Phenomenol** » Sat Jun 02, 2007 3:14 am

Olivier Hague wrote:The movies are anime, technically.
And the TV series refers to some of the movies, so...

The Dragonball Z anime is in CONTINUITY which makes it canon. Hell, Toriyama even did the filler for the DBZ anime. We just read Toriyama telling us that he only considers the Dragonball "Movies" in a different dimension from the original printed version in a Dragonball movies ONLY interview.

The DB anime is canon.

Conan the SSJ · Post by **Conan the SSJ** » Sat Jun 02, 2007 6:23 am

Olivier Hague wrote:
1 - Garlic Jr Movie -

Goku never mentions Gohan being his son (to my knowing). Probably why Krillin thinks that he's babysitting when they see him for a 2nd time.
You've got to be...

I'm with Oliver on this one, Kuririn would have to be the stupidest person on Earth not to realize this kid named after Goku's Grandfather (who was kidnapped at his house no less) isn't his son. It's like freakishly trying to explain a way out of Jonathan Archer encountering the Ferengei and Borg in Star Trek Enterprise. A more plausible explanation is Kuririn may've suffered from a short-term memory loss of Gohan's appearance (that and a year had gone pass), I mean the guy took quite a few large bumps to the head through out the movie -- seriously. True, that can be considered a cheap cop-out, but it helps explain why he doesn't recognize Gohan (his shocked reaction makes it hard to say he was just playing along) while helping place the movie into a spot in the anime continuity.

Olivier Hague wrote:
8 - Broly: The legendary Super Saiyan -

Takes place during the three days skipped in the filler between the announcing of the Cell Games and the day they take place.
That was in May, and the movie takes place in early Spring.

There's that, as well as the fact Goku and Gohan shouldn't be in normal form and all of the Z senshi were too busy at one time or another for Goku and Chichi to go enroll Gohan into a private school while the gang attended a festive picnic and Piccolo watched pornos with Popo on the lookout (umm, ignore that last part?).

Ya'll know my views on this whole matter, so I won't bother even bringing it up.

Post by **desirecampbell** » Sat Jun 02, 2007 9:52 am

Conan the SSJ wrote:
Olivier Hague wrote:
1 - Garlic Jr Movie - Goku never mentions Gohan being his son (to my knowing). Probably why Krillin thinks that he's babysitting when they see him for a 2nd time.
You've got to be...
I'm with Oliver on this one, Kuririn would have to be the stupidest person on Earth not to realize this kid named after Goku's Grandfather (who was kidnapped at his house no less) isn't his son.

Plus, Kuririn actually refers to Gohan as "Goku's child" in the movie.

Olivier Hague · Post by **Olivier Hague** » Sat Jun 02, 2007 9:53 am

Phenomenol wrote:The Dragonball Z anime is in CONTINUITY which makes it canon

Whuh? No, it doesn't work.
The TV series (I assume that's what you mean when you say "anime"... please keep in mind that the movies too are "anime") contradicts the manga quite a few times, for one thing. And there's the Garlic Jr. filler (see below).

Hell, Toriyama even did the filler for the DBZ anime.

No, he didn't. He only provided some ideas and some sketches, sometimes.

We just read Toriyama telling us that he only considers the Dragonball "Movies" in a different dimension from the original printed version in a Dragonball movies ONLY interview.

If the first "Dragon Ball Z" movie took place "in a different dimension", what about the Garlic Jr. filler, then?

Phenomenol · Post by **Phenomenol** » Sat Jun 02, 2007 2:32 pm

Olivier Hague wrote:Whuh? No, it doesn't work.
The TV series (I assume that's what you mean when you say "anime"... please keep in mind that the movies too are "anime") contradicts the manga quite a few times, for one thing. And there's the Garlic Jr. filler (see below).

And? Toriyama only considers the Movies in a "different Dimension!" The Anime is in CONTINUITY which makes them canon. The Movies are not apart of the Comic edition unlike the ANIME (TV series).

No, he didn't. He only provided some ideas and some sketches, sometimes.

http://www.daizex.com/guides/rumors/

For Toriyama to even work on the Filler and anime makes it canon.

If the first "Dragon Ball Z" movie took place "in a different dimension", what about the Garlic Jr. filler, then?

Ask Toriyama:D, Toriyama said that the TV specials and Movies is where he becomes part of the audience(unlike the canon anime) and that right there makes the movies in a different dimension.

Tyro · Post by **Tyro** » Sat Jun 02, 2007 2:56 pm

Phenomenol wrote:For Toriyama to even work on the Filler and anime makes it canon.

If Mr. Toriyama had sketches of ideas/characters/transformations that never actually happened in the manga, that automatically means that even though it's never shown or stated, it's still canon?

Sure, Mr. Toriyama had sketches of the SSj4 transformation, but does that means it's canon? No. It means it could have been, but wasn't, because the series ended. Nothing was shown past the SSj3 transformation. GT never actually happened to a canon standpoint.

I believe Mr. Toriyama also drew Pikkon. But was he ever shown either? No. Does that make him canon to anything other than the anime (both television series and movie(s)) which differ a lot from the manga? No.

The fact is, if it's made but never introduced or stated, it's just as non-canon as filler material which also was never in the manga.

Phenomenol · Post by **Phenomenol** » Sat Jun 02, 2007 4:26 pm

And? What you said still does not change the fact that the Dragonball Anime is in CONTINUITY and that makes it canon. Toriyama said it himself that he only considers Dragonball Movies in a "Different dimension."

caejones · Post by **caejones** » Sat Jun 02, 2007 7:50 pm

*Headdesk* I have a bad feeling about this.

Umm, I like Conan's views on the continuities, and Desire's "canon hierarchy", mostly.

And, umm, if Garl'c Jr is in another dimention (Movie1), then how is he likewise in the TV series? (I am well aware that movie1 appears on the "official timeline" for the TV series. But does that nullify the "Another Dimention!" status of the movies for this one?).

Post by **desirecampbell** » Sat Jun 02, 2007 10:30 pm

I think a distinction should be made clear between 'canon' and 'one, workable, overall plot'. I use my "canon levels" to determine which sequence of events to choose as part of the 'overall plot' when two events disclude each other.

My canon levels aren't really useful in determining 'canon'. Canon has nothing to do with 'this contradicts this' or 'this wasn't written by so and so', "canon" simply refers to a collection of works considered to be the accurate versions of said works, or the most important in a specific field.

The fact is, there is no 'Dragon Ball canon'. Such a thing is simply non-existent. The author doesn't care, and has basically washed his hands of the whole thing. The production company just sends out everything as "official", so they're no help. The only option left is for literary scholars to decide what parts of the franchise are, and aren't, suitable as being studied and categorized as 'canonical'. That won't happen, if at all, for several decades - that's how literature works. Slowly.

Here's the bottom line: there is no 'canon'. No amount of argument will change this. If you would like to discuss the relevance or workability of a specific plot point, movie, or sequence then argue about that - whether or not that fits - not whether it's 'canon'.

Oh, and no 'move at light speed' arguments either. 'K?

Olivier Hague · Post by **Olivier Hague** » Sun Jun 03, 2007 10:12 am

Phenomenol wrote:Toriyama only considers the Movies in a "different Dimension!" The Anime is in CONTINUITY which makes them canon.

Again, the TV series occasionally refers to the movies. What do you make of that?

http://www.daizex.com/guides/rumors/

I know there's a site. ^^;
My point still stands: he only provided some ideas and some sketches, sometimes. The guy was pretty busy with his manga, and you really shouldn't underestimate Tôei's input.

For Toriyama to even work on the Filler and anime makes it canon.

No, it doesn't. If it were that simple, I guess that would also make Ozotto canon. Heh. ^^;