How strong are Goten and Trunks ?

[Rocketman]

Well, Piccolo outright says they're powerful, but they don't standa chance against Majin Buu. So, if anything, they can be considered on-par with Vegeta, since he couldn't do anything, either.

Vegeta didn't seem as hurt by Buu (before blowing himself up, obviously) as base Gotenks did.

I also doubt the age played a factor. Piccolo saw Gohan at 8 yrs old surpass Goku greatly, and the kids are basically the same age, with Goten being younger.

Gohan was about 10, I think. And, don't forget, Piccolo worked Gohan's strength out himself, saw the whole thing, basically. Goten and Trunks come out of nowhere.

Also, Piccolo wasn't all that enthused on the Fusion Dance. Seeing it work, and work so well...

I think there is. Piccolo said: "He does seem different! They've powered-up hugely! This may succeed!"

On the lookout, Piccolo stated Super Buu was more powerful then the previous Buu, who we know Vegeta couldn't even damage, so they would have to be above Vegeta comfortably at this point. If they're still much weaker then a SSJ2, it makes Piccolo look stupid, not that he didn't try so much to do that already.

To be fair, the entire Buu Saga is every one of the heroes acting completely retarded.

[Saiyan-Professor]

Daizenshuu 7 does actually mention that the Super Saiyan transformation multiplied Goku's power by 50, though.

Yeah I think so, too.
But then the question should be, if it is always 50 or not.
Or said in another way: Is it the base form which is important for SSJ powers or can the multiplier change over time?

(I always wondered about that Oo)

As far as I know, there is not anything that says that the multiplier changed unless Dayspring comes up with a quote that says otherwise.

As a footnote, I know that many here dislike the data contained in the Daizenshuu but to me it provides a means to understanding how the Super Saiyan transformation works so my imagination does not run away from me when I am thinking about combat powers. It also helps me in understanding how Vegeta felt like he could still challenge Kakarrot in the new ending to the manga and in Dragonball GT. For if, you take the multipliers out of it (especially Super Saiyan 3 since that is the one transformation that Kakarrot has over Vegeta in Z) and if Vegeta concentrates on his base combat power, he would have a chance at beating Kakarrot.

[Kid Trunks]

3. The massive jump to Vegetto is stated to not be from the Fusion alone, but from the power of Goku and Vegeta.

Well, if that is the case, then the massive jump of power that Gotenks got would have been from the power of Goten and Trunks, power that would have to much greater than you say they have.

[Bussani]

If Trunks and Goten really are weaker than Freeza, then that would put their base powers at at 2 million-ish right? With powerlevels like that, I dont see how a fusion would result in a power comparable to Majin Vegeta (which is the power base Gotenks is generally believed to have).

If the fusion is a good match, the resulting character is a lot stronger than the sum of it's parts. Not only that, but Gotenks had the ability to tap into the power of SSJ3, which neither of the boys alone could do.

I guess that implies that he could be hanging somewhere between SSJ and SSJ2 the rest of the time. I don't remember if he ever gets the SSJ2 sparks before skipping right to SSJ3.

Also, about the whole '50 times stronger' thing. I might be wrong since I don't have a Daizenshuu or read Japanese, but does it actually explicitly say that Super Saiyajin multiplies your power by 50? I was always under the impression that it simply said Goku was 50 times stronger than his normal self, which is a bit different than saying SSJ always multiplies your strength by 50.

I mean, that's always sounded a bit crazy to me. If it just multiplies your base strength then that means if you doubled your base strength (somehow), then times that by 50, the difference would be ridiculously enormous.

[Kid Trunks]

I mean, that's always sounded a bit crazy to me. If it just multiplies your base strength then that means if you doubled your base strength (somehow), then times that by 50, the difference would be ridiculously enormous.

Maybe. But that seems to be what we're dealing with here.

[Bussani]

What I mean is, let's say that SSJ Goku and an enemy are roughly equal in strength, and Goku has to get stronger than him.

Why bother perfecting SSJ or going beyond it when he could just do some training in his base form and have SSJ turn that 'some' into a huge power difference?

[Kid Trunks]

He does do that. Except that some enemies are just much stronger.

Also, the stronger he gets, the harder it becomes to get even stronger. Which is why a lot of time is needed .i.e ROSAT.

[Saiyan-Professor]

Also, about the whole '50 times stronger' thing. I might be wrong since I don't have a Daizenshuu or read Japanese, but does it actually explicitly say that Super Saiyajin multiplies your power by 50? I was always under the impression that it simply said Goku was 50 times stronger than his normal self, which is a bit different than saying SSJ always multiplies your strength by 50.

I mean, that's always sounded a bit crazy to me. If it just multiplies your base strength then that means if you doubled your base strength (somehow), then times that by 50, the difference would be ridiculously enormous.

I got that equation about the Super Saiyan multiplier from Dayspring but I shot Herms a PM and asked for some actual quotes. However, since others want to argue that the multiplier did not remain at 50 for Super Saiyan alone, I would like to know what they are proposing. It cannot have gotten smaller because Herms did tell me that many are misinterpreting the section in the Daizenshuu that supposedly states that the remainder of the power ups in the series came from fusions alone. He said that the statement was essentially explaining that because of further Super Saiyan levels and fusions their battle power got to the point where they could not be measured numerically. This would make since if the Super Saiyan multipliers were at work.

Addendum: Also many bring up the fact that we see Vegeta and the others training as Super Saiyans. Well the Super Saiyan transformation puts a greater strain on the body and more force can be exerted especially when training with another Super Saiyan. They would get the same effects when training in base form but they would get faster results as a Super Saiyan, the multiplier can remain the same. What we are actually talking about is the workings of a humanoid body. I guess you could look at it as being similar to when you run or workout with weights strapped to your wrists and ankles (or the weighted clothing Kami/Mr. Popo had Kakarrot wear in the early days).

[Dayspring]

How does that quote prove that Vegetto knew “his own strength”? Moreover, according to the Daizenshuu the Super Saiyan transformtion multiplies the character’s base power by 50.

Only in the era of Kaiokens being remotely useful (ie: against Freeza). Once Goku, Gohan, Vegeta, and Trunks exit the Room of Spirit and Time in the Cell arcs, we see SSJ is no longer just a straight multiplier. In fact, one could even argue that it's no longer the case after the three years of training leading up to the androids.

How did you come to that conclusion? Does the Daizenshuu say that it was no longer a straight multiplier?

I've been reading the Androids and Cell arc lately. Vegeta's explanation of SSJ to Gero is that they're in a constant agitated/excited state. After ROSAT, Vegeta and Trunks are capable of reaching USSJ and USSJ2, both of which are merely "levels 2 and 3 of SSJ1." This implies that there's more to SSJ1 than just a straight multiplier. Added to this, FP-SSJ is the ability to maintain SSJ without that state of agitation, in order to access more energy from the SSJ state. If it's just a flat multiplyer of power, how can they have the ability to tap into even more power without going directly to SSJ2?

Also, if it were a straight multiplyer of 50, then according to the daizenshuu, SSJ2 Gohan should be weaker than Cell, as Cell was listed as being 2-3 times stronger than Goku in the manga, Gohan equal to Goku, and the daizenshuu lists SSJ2 as SSJ strength x 2.

Although, now that I mentioned all this, I have a theory that FP-SSJ is merely a means of tapping into USSJ and USSJ2's strengths without inducing the transformation into those states.

And yeah, the daizenshuu uses general Saiyans going SSJ when it mentions the 50x rule. Note, however, that this was probably done to explain how Goku can become stronger than 100% Freeza, who has a PL greater than Goku using Kaioken x40.

[Kid Trunks]

the daizenshuu lists SSJ2 as SSJ strength x 2.

The Daizenshuu actually says that?

[Saiyan-Professor]

I've been reading the Androids and Cell arc lately. Vegeta's explanation of SSJ to Gero is that they're in a constant agitated/excited state. After ROSAT, Vegeta and Trunks are capable of reaching USSJ and USSJ2, both of which are merely "levels 2 and 3 of SSJ1." This implies that there's more to SSJ1 than just a straight multiplier. Added to this, FP-SSJ is the ability to maintain SSJ without that state of agitation, in order to access more energy from the SSJ state. If it's just a flat multiplyer of power, how can they have the ability to tap into even more power without going directly to SSJ2?

Also, if it were a straight multiplyer of 50, then according to the daizenshuu, SSJ2 Gohan should be weaker than Cell, as Cell was listed as being 2-3 times stronger than Goku in the manga, Gohan equal to Goku, and the daizenshuu lists SSJ2 as SSJ strength x 2.

Although, now that I mentioned all this, I have a theory that FP-SSJ is merely a means of tapping into USSJ and USSJ2's strengths without inducing the transformation into those states.

And yeah, the daizenshuu uses general Saiyans going SSJ when it mentions the 50x rule. Note, however, that this was probably done to explain how Goku can become stronger than 100% Freeza, who has a PL greater than Goku using Kaioken x40.

As was already stated on numerous occasions that Ultra Super Saiyan 1 and 2 is what occurs when one is close to Super Saiyan 2 but is missing something that pushes them threw the wall. If Super Saiyan 1 is 50 and Super Saiyan 2 is 100 then USSJ 1 and 2 could be an extra 20 each totaling 40. The last 10 is what is keeping the user from becoming a Super Saiyan 2. It all would add up the same in the end. Son Gohan skipped those upgrades and his father threw them to the side and focused on getting rid of the restless feeling and conserving his Ki while at the same time increasing his base/Super Saiyan form.

Son Gohan was beyond Kakarrot once the two stepped out of the Room of Space and Time. This was verified when the Z-Senshi discussed whether Son Gohan would fight Cell. They all were amazed that to him Kakarrot and Cell was essentially not giving it their all in the fight. In light of that Son Gohan would not be weaker than Cell, those figures only apply to Kakarrot.

In addition, I believe that it was Old Kaiôshin that told us that Super Saiyan puts a strain on the body in the Buu Saga.

[Dayspring]

the daizenshuu lists SSJ2 as SSJ strength x 2.

The Daizenshuu actually says that?

Yup: "Super Saiyen devenu deux fois plus puissant" according to the French Daizenshuu, which litterally means "Super Saiyan become two times more powerful." The rest describes the how Gohan, Vegeta and Goku first achieved the state (Gohan from Cell, Vegeta and Goku through harsh training).

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

In addition, I believe that it was Old Kaiôshin that told us that Super Saiyan puts a strain on the body in the Buu Saga.

Vegeta said it to Trunks when he mentioned Goku and Gohan were utilizing the SSJ form without the worrying about the strain it brings.

[Chibi Mystic Gohan]

as Cell was listed as being 2-3 times stronger than Goku in the manga, Gohan equal to Goku

Huh?

and the daizenshuu lists SSJ2 as SSJ strength x 2.

What page, and in which Daizenshuu is this said?

[Herms]

and the daizenshuu lists SSJ2 as SSJ strength x 2.

What page, and in which Daizenshuu is this said?

I believe it's from Glenat's French edition of Daizenshuu 7. In the Japanese, the technique dictionary's entry for SSJ2 says that it's power "surpasses Super Saiyan in all ways", but apparently the French edition has it say that it has twice the power of SSJ.

[Saiyan-Professor]

This is a classic example of how translators are so important where these data books are concerned. I was going off assumptions that were founded on a mistranslation even though the French edition does make more sense given how the power levels were displayed throughout the series post Freeza Saga. In addition, Herms did confirm that in quite a few places and even in the Dragonball GT Perfect Files, that Super Saiyan does in fact function as a multiplier, it multiplies the base combat power by 50, the quotes concerning Super Saiyan 2-3 or rather vague. Even though I will no longer use them in future, discussions I will personally hold to the French editions view on matters.

[Xyex]

I stopped paying attention about mid way through page... 3, I think. Anyway, I wanted to cover the Fusion thing, and how Gotenks can be so strong even with reasonable levels for the kids. So, let's assume that Majin Vegeta is 3 billion while base Goten is 2.5 million and base Trunks is 2.6 million. Trunks lowers his power to match Goten's and they fuse, the fusion is 10x more powerful than the two fusees, thus we have a base of 50 million (2.5 + 2.5 = 5 x 10).

50 million x50 = 2.5 billion, as an SSJ. More than enough for Piccolo's reaction. x2 for SSJ2 = 5 billion x1.5 for SSJ3 = 7.5 billion. I'd say that's better than Goku's roughly 4.5 billion SSJ3.

And I'm in the "Buu draws on a person's full power" camp too. Because we saw that Goten and Trunks were unconcious in Buu which means Gotekns would have been too which means he'd have reverted to base. But Buu's power increase was too great to be drawing on just base Gotenks's power.

[Yamcha_krillin]

One small question;

Can Androids like 17 or 18 even sense KI or power of another fighter,IIRC they can't.

[Deep Thought]

About as strong as USSJ Vegeta (1st appearance). Because of the facts that their suppressed blasts scared the living shit out of #18, and because of the fact that them powering up to full power shocked Piccolo, and Piccolo doesn't get easily shocked. Honorable mentions include making Gohan and Vegeta in their Super Sayajin states both sweat.

[Rocketman]

One small question;

Can Androids like 17 or 18 even sense KI or power of another fighter,IIRC they can't.

No. #16 could, and they were surprised when he revealed that.