Kaioshin/South Kaioshin/Dai Kaioshin/Kibitoshin REVALUATION

[Fox666]

The Daizenshuu even confirms that Base Trunks is on par with #18. And how long could it have possibly taken her to figure out that some guy who was fighting on par with her is not a normal human?

If the Daizenshuu says that Tenshinhan fought no.19 instead of no.17 (and the Daizenshuu really do) would you deny the manga chapters which Tenshinhan did nothing against no.19 however he interviewed against no.17 and 18?

The Daizenshuu works as suplemental material. This means you can't use it to re-telling the manga events. If somethings happens in the manga, it happens. By the way, I already posted the scans of the 25º Budokai in the last page.

And I suggest people to not take too deep the Daizenshuu "statements" about strength comparison. In this case it was merely a sumary of manga events. It's not like every line in the Daizenshuu serves as a veredict over character A x B. Strength comparsion was never the focus of Daizenshuu, and it's not like they care so much about it.

Nothing is ever stated about her holding back against them, nor is it even hinted at. (..) Why would she fight at his EXACT level instead of upping the ante at least a bit to win easily?

The manga clearly shows Trunks was losing (to the point he was forced to turn in Super Saiyan). And she wasn't anywhere at "exact" level, she was clearly using more strength.

Besides, there is this line of Trunks after he and Goten becomes Super Saiyans:

Trunks: “Either way, we’re at a disadvantage in this getup, so we’ve got no choice but to settle this with a kiai cannon!”

At least for me it sounds like Trunks was losing to no.18 before (which in fact he did in the manga).

And how long could it have possibly taken her to figure out that some guy who was fighting on par with her is not a normal human?

Good question. I guess she lacks certain knowledge about humans and it's hard for her to measure someone strength.

[TobyS]

I'm sorry this is just tantamount to Piccolo bashing (or non-saiyan bashing)

Saying Piccolo is on bar with the base kids is insane. Even if he didn't improve at all in the time since Cell and of course he did, no one of the "z-fighters" quits martial arts unless we are specifically told otherwise to assume so is silly, they have been doing it their whole lives up to that point, they love it, they use it to protect the world and for their own amusement.

(huge gains, at least for Piccolo, from regular training are possible, as seen in the android saga)

I know you hate chains mod's but its the only way I can easily think to illustrate my point in this case

Piccolo (7 years/Buu) >>>> Piccolo (2nd year RoSaT) >>> Piccolo (1st Year RoSaT) >> Piccolo (Post Kami) > 17 (death by 'light grenade') > 18 > Base Kid Trunks

I don't care what those supplementary Daiz's say we can see base trunks was getting slapped around by 18.
It never says Goku is weaker then the base saiyans, if you are going for the 'implication via babidi/Dabra' remember they are morons and almost everything they say is wrong.

They think Pui Pui could beat Vegeta. And if you think Piccolo < Pui Pui then it follows that Piccolo is one-punchable by Base vegeta also.

So I ask, why would Piccolo enter a tournament to fight Base/Super-Saiyan Goku when he could be one-punched by the far inferior Vegeta?

Also Buu assumes the form of Piccolo when the kids defuse, now you can pretend it's because of Piccolos smarts are more important then the kids combined strength, but really it's just a logical round-about stretch to do that, Toriyama doesn't make tiny nuances like that for no reason with no explanation, besides, if smarts were more important then strength in deciding appearence, then why didn't he look like Piccolo when he had Gotenks absorbed?

Gohan was not said to stop training only to have "slacked off" in his training, he is the same or better in Base and SS1. We later find out through Son Goku that the only reason he appears to have been weaker in SS2 is his rustyness in accessing his rage boosts. (even Vegeta who has been bashing Gohan -mainly out of impatience to fight Goku-) admits "we don't know what would happen if he went beserk")

Yamcha is not said to have stopped training, he just doesn't enter this tournament (see his tournament history for why)

As an aside the only person said to stop training is Kuririn, some indeterminate time between the Cell games and Buu, basically being busy with a kid was the reason. He starts again before the tournament and is never said to stop again. If you count the Yo! special, or, rather, if you don't purposely exclude it (it had toryama involvement and doesn't cause any continuity errors with it's existence) you can see Kuririn (and Yamcha) are still into it.

[p123]

Piccolo only went into the Rosat 1 time, he maxed out after 1 year.


Base Trunks ~ 18 is very logical. 18 gets all of her punches blocked by Trunks, and 18 has to outmanuever him to land anything to which Base Trunks pops up unharmed and unaffected by 18...


I think at maximum, Trunks ~ 18, but it's possible 18 went a little easy, but I don't see why, she was told to go easy on the humans, Base Trunks definitely blows Freeza away, and that ain't no human power level, no need to go easy ...

[CatouttaHell]

If the Daizenshuu says that Tenshinhan fought no.19 instead of no.17 (and the Daizenshuu really do) would you deny the manga chapters which Tenshinhan did nothing against no.19 however he interviewed against no.17 and 18?

The Daizenshuu works as suplemental material. This means you can't use it to re-telling the manga events. If somethings happens in the manga, it happens. By the way, I already posted the scans of the 25º Budokai in the last page.

And I suggest people to not take too deep the Daizenshuu "statements" about strength comparison. In this case it was merely a sumary of manga events. It's not like every line in the Daizenshuu serves as a veredict over character A x B. Strength comparsion was never the focus of Daizenshuu, and it's not like they care so much about it.

Base Trunks did indeed demonstrate power on par with #18 in the manga, so I don't see what the problem is. I was just mentioning that to say that both the manga AND the Daizenshuu state this point.

The manga clearly shows Trunks was losing (to the point he was forced to turn in Super Saiyan). And she wasn't anywhere at "exact" level, she was clearly using more strength.

Besides, there is this line of Trunks after he and Goten becomes Super Saiyans:

Trunks: “Either way, we’re at a disadvantage in this getup, so we’ve got no choice but to settle this with a kiai cannon!”

At least for me it sounds like Trunks was losing to no.18 before (which in fact he did in the manga).

That line just supports the idea that they were losing simply because of the getup. Base Trunks fought on par with #18 and then became 50x stronger with SSjin. Him saying they're still at a disadvantage just shows how big of a problem the clownsuit was IMO.

Good question. I guess she lacks certain knowledge about humans and it's hard for her to measure someone strength.

As p123 said, Base Trunks blows Freeza away. It's obvious he couldn't have been a normal Earthling. She only K.O.'d one a moment before fighting Base Trunks and likely had met quite a handful of them before. Saying she couldn't figure out somebody that powerful wasn't a normal human is a huge stretch IMO.

I'm sorry this is just tantamount to Piccolo bashing (or non-saiyan bashing)

Piccolo is very heavily implied to be below the Base Saiya-jins on multiple occasions. It's not bashing if it's going by manga facts. Would you consider it Roshi bashing if I said Roshi is below the Base Saiya-jins? Of course not.

Saying Piccolo is on bar with the base kids is insane. Even if he didn't improve at all in the time since Cell and of course he did, no one of the "z-fighters" quits martial arts unless we are specifically told otherwise to assume so is silly, they have been doing it their whole lives up to that point, they love it, they use it to protect the world and for their own amusement.

(huge gains, at least for Piccolo, from regular training are possible, as seen in the android saga)

I know you hate chains mod's but its the only way I can easily think to illustrate my point in this case

Piccolo (7 years/Buu) >>>> Piccolo (2nd year RoSaT) >>> Piccolo (1st Year RoSaT) >> Piccolo (Post Kami) > 17 (death by 'light grenade') > 18 > Base Kid Trunks

I just view it as a retcon at this point. I have Cell Games Piccolo = Boo Arc Piccolo and assume Toriyama forgot Piccolo went into the RoSaT and simply trained in the 7 years after the Cell Arc. This is actually a very likely fact considering Toriyama's bad memory and how weak Piccolo is. I mean I've seen even many fans who also debate Battle Powers who forgot/didn't know Piccolo went into the RoSaT. It's a fact that's easy to forget.

I don't care what those supplementary Daiz's say we can see base trunks was getting slapped around by 18.
It never says Goku is weaker then the base saiyans, if you are going for the 'implication via babidi/Dabra' remember they are morons and almost everything they say is wrong.

Gohan and Vegeta were both confident they'd beat Piccolo in base. Both of them came to win and the fact that Piccolo was there didn't bother any of them. Piccolo is not a factor in the Boo Arc.

They think Pui Pui could beat Vegeta. And if you think Piccolo < Pui Pui then it follows that Piccolo is one-punchable by Base vegeta also.

So I ask, why would Piccolo enter a tournament to fight Base/Super-Saiyan Goku when he could be one-punched by the far inferior Vegeta?

Why would Kuririn and #18 enter a Tenkaichi Budoukai with Super Saiya-jin 2 Gohan in it? I mean Vegeta flat-out says with #18 sitting near him that even if they fight in base nothing will change. #18 >>> Kuririn and yet he was still there. The only two guys who stated they were going to win were Gohan and Vegeta. #18 and Kuririn came hoping to win 5th or 4th place and still get some of the prize money and Piccolo came just to see everybody again.

Also Buu assumes the form of Piccolo when the kids defuse, now you can pretend it's because of Piccolos smarts are more important then the kids combined strength, but really it's just a logical round-about stretch to do that, Toriyama doesn't make tiny nuances like that for no reason with no explanation, besides, if smarts were more important then strength in deciding appearence, then why didn't he look like Piccolo when he had Gotenks absorbed?

I don't think Boo works the way we think he does. There's multiple explanations for why Piccolo-Boo looks the way he does:

1. Toriyama wasn't thinking about that and thought he looked cooler in Piccolo's outfit.
2. Goten and Trunks were drained from the fusion and their bases fell below Piccolo.
3. Goten surpassed Trunks in the RoSaT and since Boo was about to absorb Gohan, he needed to give him a different outfit to make it noticeable.
4. Boo doesn't work that way. Remember South Kaioshin is stated to be > Dai Kaioshin and yet Dai Kaioshin Boo has both of them in him and takes the appearance of the weaker one. It could be he just takes the appearance of the absorption that affects him the most. Goten and Trunks were useless to him defused while Piccolo's brains still came in handy. Thus Piccolo had more of an effect on him and was the one Boo took after.

Gohan was not said to stop training only to have "slacked off" in his training, he is the same or better in Base and SS1. We later find out through Son Goku that the only reason he appears to have been weaker in SS2 is his rustyness in accessing his rage boosts. (even Vegeta who has been bashing Gohan -mainly out of impatience to fight Goku-) admits "we don't know what would happen if he went beserk")

Yamcha is not said to have stopped training, he just doesn't enter this tournament (see his tournament history for why)

As an aside the only person said to stop training is Kuririn, some indeterminate time between the Cell games and Buu, basically being busy with a kid was the reason. He starts again before the tournament and is never said to stop again. If you count the Yo! special, or, rather, if you don't purposely exclude it (it had toryama involvement and doesn't cause any continuity errors with it's existence) you can see Kuririn (and Yamcha) are still into it.

Well on this stuff I must say I actually completely agree with you. Teen Gohan > Chibi Gohan IMO. A lot of people don't really accept this because they can't accept Gohan being a SSjin 2 against Dabura, which makes the rage argument impossible, and they can't accept that he gets a rage boost. I agree that Yamucha never stopped training but Kuririn I think at least trained occasionally. He said he does train with #18 sometimes in GT in the last episode so I personally take that as fact.

[p123]

Agree with damn near everything except the Teen Gohan > Kid Gohan. Stated to be Kid > Teen.

ANd of course Base Kids Post > Piccolo. You don't lose power or stamina inside of Buu.

[CatouttaHell]

Agree with damn near everything except the Teen Gohan > Kid Gohan. Stated to be Kid > Teen.

He simply wasn't enraged so it felt like he was weaker. Plus the Daizenshuu confirms he never got weaker, and Vegeta and Goku both imply he'd get his old strength, if not more, back if he gets angry like he was against Cell.

[p123]

When did Gohan become enraged against Cell? That never happened. They said he would be able to beat Dabura basically. Vegeta made note of Gohans various rage bursts throughout the manga.

[CatouttaHell]

He went SSjin 2 at the Tenkaichi Budoukai without rage, and Vegeta later said there's no telling what would happen if he went into a frenzy. That shows right there that Frenzied SSjin 2 Gohan >>> SSjin 2 Gohan. Gohan went enraged against Super Perfect Cell at the very end. That's how he overpowered him.

[Fox666]

Base Trunks ~ 18 is very logical. 18 gets all of her punches blocked by Trunks, and 18 has to outmanuever him to land anything to which Base Trunks pops up unharmed and unaffected by 18...

Trunks didn't blocked all of her punches. He was being pushed, and was put to the ground.

Base Trunks did indeed demonstrate power on par with #18 in the manga, so I don't see what the problem is. I was just mentioning that to say that both the manga AND the Daizenshuu state this point.

As I said before, I posted the scan of the pages in the last page. She didn't fought "on par" with Trunks.

Saying she couldn't figure out somebody that powerful wasn't a normal human is a huge stretch IMO.

But she thought he was just a weird human with unusual strength. And later she also seemed surprised that Mr. Satan punch in her face couldn't push her back.

So it seems she lacks knowledge about how strong she actually is compared to the ordinary humans.

Well on this stuff I must say I actually completely agree with you. Teen Gohan > Chibi Gohan IMO. A lot of people don't really accept this because they can't accept Gohan being a SSjin 2 against Dabura, which makes the rage argument impossible, and they can't accept that he gets a rage boost.

As far I am concerned, the manga was clear about Gohan being weaker as a teenager. Despite it being said multiple times in the manga, there are many occasional lines that aren't directly about Gohan (for example this line of Piccolo's about Vegeta strength "Perhaps even greater than Gohan’s when he fought Cell…")

[p123]

Na check it again. Trunks blocked all of her punches, and was being pushed back by her punches as well. Then 18 jumps up high and finally is able to land one on Trunks.

Trunks isn't all that far off from 18. That would be ridiculous.



Gohan never got a rage burst at the end of the blast. No one mentioned an increase in power, and it would have only been an instant no one would remember that.

Vegeta is talking about Gohan vs Raditz twice, Gohan vs Nappa once, Gohan vs Freeza twice. Not Gohan vs Cell, his rage was his SSJ2.

[hleV]

his rage was his SSJ2.

No.

Gohan was believed to be able to destroy Cell by getting strength from anger only. He did get angry.

• Cell - 100
  Gohan - 10
  SS Gohan - 50
  Enraged Gohan - 100
  SS2 Gohan - 200

Or something like that. Basically Gohan may have very well defeated Cell (but not necessary SPC) even if SS2 never existed.

[p123]

His anger resulted in SSJ2. Goku never expected it to be a new form, but SSJ2 was just Gohan's super stupid rage. Later we learn , it's actually a form that Gohan unlocked.


You don't get rage bursts on top of unlocking transformations. That silly.

[hleV]

His anger resulted in SSJ2.

On top of getting much more strength.

You don't get rage bursts on top of unlocking transformations. That silly.

It's not. I don't understand what leads you to believe that it is.

[goldsaint13]

For one Kaioshin didn't think he was surpassed until he felt SSjin 2 Goku's burst against Yakon.

That's it... Kaioshin is equal to SSJ1... The Saiyan's power that really surprised him is SSJ2...
And maybe Goku's SSJ2 more than Gohan's he saw at the tournament...

And he did better against Dai Kaioshin Boo than SSjin 2 Gohan and Dabura did. If you just assume Kaioshin feared Dabura because of his reputation as the strongest guy in the Demon Realm, and that he and South Kaioshin never actually bothered to pull out the Z Sword, which are both very probable, it's very likely for East Kaioshin to be above Super Perfect Cell and for South Kaioshin to be SSjin 3 tier IMO.

Exactly... That's what I tend to believe... East Kaioshin is never really astonished by even SSJ2 Gohan, neither at Tenkaichi, nor during the battles... It's only the amazing SSJ2 of Goku and Majin Vegeta that leave him really surprised...
As for South Kaioshin... I agree he is SSJ3 tier...

I have all Kaioshins residing in the 250-500 million range.

I even have Cyborg 18 above South Kaioshin by a little bit... Kaioshins are nothing special to the Cell Saga IMO...

Absurd...

East Kaioshin is far stronger than Buu's saga Piccolo (stronger than No.18)... South Kaioshin is far stronger than him...

East Kaioshin is surely in the billions like Cell Games characters...

I think that most people forget that the Cell saga actually provides a numerical comparison of Goku power as a Full-power Super Saiyan with the rest of the characters. This is, when Goku uses 50% of his Ki.

When he uses his 50% it's only clearly implied that he was stronger than anyone else... But I don't see accurate comparisons...

Vegeta clearly surpassed by much the 50% of Goku. And if you are gona believe that Piccolo in the Cell Games is by any form close to Vegeta in power, added to Trunks' reaction above, it should be clear that Piccolo should also have surpassed these 50%.

Do you think that both Piccolo and Vegeta (more Vegeta than Piccolo considering that Vegeta can handle a Cell Junior but not Piccolo) have gone above 50% Goku?
That would make sense because Vegeta = Cell Junior while fatigued Goku is below a Cell Junior, that means that Vegeta could have reached a level above 50% Goku...

As for Piccolo I don't know, but being even equal to that 50% Goku is impressive... I never imagined such a gap... I believed he would have went above Imperfect Cell but not by much...

Thus to an extent I view Boo Arc Piccolo as = Cell Games Piccolo because that Piccolo didn't go into the RoSaT and simply got to 600,000,000 from training in the 7 years. I know it sounds crazy but Boo Arc Piccolo might rival Base Goten and Trunks before the RoSaT. There's certainly strong implications for it IMO. Base Trunks was fighting on par with #18 while in a clownsuit. So Base Trunks definitely > Kamiccolo IMO. Also Base Gohan being above >>> Piccolo is what Toriyama implies. Plus Gohan isn't far above Goten.

It sounds both absurd and likely to be at the same time... This is because Piccolo went in the RoSaT but also in Buu's saga he's implied to be like that...

Maybe the Full Power gives a significant boost to the Saiyans base forms... I can't see other explanations... The actual transformation turns to be a x4 multiplier instead of a x50... That's the only thing that would make sense at all...

I can accept that 1/4 of SSJ FP Gohan or even Goten is stronger than Piccolo, not really 1/50...

Don't forget also that Base Future Trunks is implied to not be enough to beat Future #17 and #18. Nothing really implies the Base Saiya-jins got ridiculously powerful so much as it's implied that Piccolo is ridiculously weak IMO.

With a consistent 50x boost there's just no way around it.

That Trunks was not Full Power yet... While kid Trunks from Buu's saga is Full Power...
Future Trunks was still under the x50 rule and while as SSJ he could barely equal a Cell Junior, he was only a bunch of millions in base form... Kid Trunks base form could be already 1/4 of his SSJ form and that's the only way he could ever be stronger than Piccolo in base form... But only if you don't consider Piccolo's RoSaT training to have given him a power like post-RoSaT 50% Goku...

[CatouttaHell]

As I said before, I posted the scan of the pages in the last page. She didn't fought "on par" with Trunks.

You have to consider both Goten and Trunks were in that awkward clownsuit. It's very impressive IMO that they managed to do as good as they did in that disguise. Don't forget Trunks stated that they're still in a disadvantage in the suit even after they went SSjin. That's a 50x boost right there IMO and they still consider the getup to be a problem...

But she thought he was just a weird human with unusual strength. And later she also seemed surprised that Mr. Satan punch in her face couldn't push her back.

So it seems she lacks knowledge about how strong she actually is compared to the ordinary humans.

She's lived for several years now at least with a guy who might already be in the hundred thousands and who she most likely knows is one of the strongest Earthlings ever and yet even he is thousands of times weaker than her. Even if she never figured it out and Kuririn never told her, Roshi must have probably mentioned it one time or another.

IMO she was just surprised at Mr. Satan because of his reputation. I mean he's the world champion after all, she'd expect him to at least be 1/10th as strong as her husband. Or it's just a gag scene and shouldn't make any sense in the first place. Either way I just can't see her thinking Base Trunks is just some normal human despite his completely abnormal power but that's just my opinion.

As far I am concerned, the manga was clear about Gohan being weaker as a teenager. Despite it being said multiple times in the manga, there are many occasional lines that aren't directly about Gohan (for example this line of Piccolo's about Vegeta strength "Perhaps even greater than Gohan’s when he fought Cell…")

Nothing says he got weaker, it only says he was stronger. And both Goku and Vegeta allude to his rage boosts and how he can regain that power, if not more, if he gets angry again like he was against Cell. No offence but I honestly don't understand why Gohan getting weaker is such a popular belief. I mean the Daizenshuu states he didn't get weaker and even explains that the quotes about him being stronger are because he couldn't gain power from rage. Plus, him getting weaker makes no sense at all. He relies on Ki and not physical strength. Ki is spiritual energy and cannot atrophy away like muscles can. And physically Teen Gohan is obviously > Chibi Gohan. You wouldn't expect your 10 year old self to beat up your 17 year old self would you?

Nobody in the manga has ever lost Ki from not training. Freeza does nothing but sit around all day and order people around and nothing implies he's ever weakened in the least. Nappa and Vegeta spent an entire year sitting in pods and napping and they didn't weaken in the least. Vegeta mocked Kiwi, Dodoria, and Zarbon for becoming complacent under Freeza's wing and yet nothing is stated about them weakening from their laziness. Not to mention all of the characters like Kaioshin who it is doubtful ever trained who never get weaker.

There's just no instance in the manga of anybody losing Ki from not training. And it doesn't make any sense for that to happen in the first place. Gohan getting weaker is just a common fan misinterpretation IMO.

That's it... Kaioshin is equal to SSJ1... The Saiyan's power that really surprised him is SSJ2...
And maybe Goku's SSJ2 more than Gohan's he saw at the tournament...

I think it's likely we underestimate Kaioshin to insane degrees simply because he fears Babidi and co because of the trauma Boo caused him and because of everyone's reputations. Feats >>> statements. We saw Dai Kaioshin Boo one-shot SSjin 2 Gohan and Dabura without even trying and yet it took quite a few hits to take Kaioshin down. I don't know how much of what we can take from the ship is really valid to be honest. I mean Kaioshin was shocked by Pui-Pui and Base Vegeta. There's no way either of them could even take one hit from Dai Kaioshin Boo without crumbling into pieces.

Absurd...

East Kaioshin is far stronger than Buu's saga Piccolo (stronger than No.18)... South Kaioshin is far stronger than him...

East Kaioshin is surely in the billions like Cell Games characters...

Agreed. I don't really think Piccolo is anything but trash in the Boo Arc but going by Boo-related feats Kaioshin is a monster, I place him a good deal above Full Power Perfect Cell. South Kaioshin might take out SSjin 3 Goku just due to the latter's strain IMO.

As for Piccolo I don't know, but being even equal to that 50% Goku is impressive... I never imagined such a gap... I believed he would have went above Imperfect Cell but not by much...

I think Piccolo reaching 50% SSjin Goku's level is completely ludicrous but that's just my opinion. I mean this is the guy who flat-out said Initial Second Form Cell is an unnatural power that nobody can defeat.

It sounds both absurd and likely to be at the same time... This is because Piccolo went in the RoSaT but also in Buu's saga he's implied to be like that...

Maybe the Full Power gives a significant boost to the Saiyans base forms... I can't see other explanations... The actual transformation turns to be a x4 multiplier instead of a x50... That's the only thing that would make sense at all...

I can accept that 1/4 of SSJ FP Gohan or even Goten is stronger than Piccolo, not really 1/50...

Well Base Saiya-jins >>> Piccolo is a tough pill to swallow but IMO it's what the manga heavily implies. I mean it's just stupid writing that doesn't match up with the previous parts of the story, especially if you don't believe in a possible retcon. Makes it seem like Toriyama was really just "hey did I even do anything with Piccolo in the last arc? Did he even power up since he fused with God? Eh, whatever, he's trash now I guess." I mean the entire Boo Arc just treats him like a member of Kuririn, Yamucha's, etc little has-been club, not like a guy who's actually even semi-relevant. I don't think there's anybody who would believe Piccolo > Base Saiya-jins if they only saw the Boo Arc and didn't know what a stupid contradiction Toriyama made with this.

I don't really believe in a different multiplier for SSjin myself but it's possible. The guidebooks only speak of a 50x multiplier and the closest Toriyama came to stating a lower multiplier is saying in an interview that he drew SSjin with a 10x boost in mind. But that interview came from the Super Exciting Guide, which contradicts this by saying the SSjin multiplier is always 50x.

I personally have Base Goku >>> Base Vegeta >> Base Goten (Post) > Base Gohan >> Piccolo > Base Trunks (Pre) with a 50x boost. Honestly, I really like the idea of a 4x multiplier but I pretty much follow all of the guidebooks to the tee so I only use different multipliers for my GT and Movie levels. It's one of those things that might not be intended but makes a lot more sense. Toriyama stopped using numbers after Freeza, makes things up as he goes, and doesn't over-analyse or expect people to over-analyse stuff, so you end up getting stuck with nonsense like Base Saiya-jins >>> Piccolo with a 50x boost because of that.

That Trunks was not Full Power yet... While kid Trunks from Buu's saga is Full Power...
Future Trunks was still under the x50 rule and while as SSJ he could barely equal a Cell Junior, he was only a bunch of millions in base form... Kid Trunks base form could be already 1/4 of his SSJ form and that's the only way he could ever be stronger than Piccolo in base form... But only if you don't consider Piccolo's RoSaT training to have given him a power like post-RoSaT 50% Goku...

I don't think Piccolo even reached Initial Second Form Cell to be honest. I mean you have to consider, Goku didn't even think up Full Power Super Saiya-jin before he went into the RoSaT and he was already flat-out stating he'd defeat Cell as a fact. Meanwhile Piccolo was saying that Cell's power was unnatural and that he doesn't think he can be defeated by anyone. It's hard to take anything from the Cell Juniors fight since they were clearly just playing around with everyone. I mean even Tenshinhan was standing up halfway through the fight IIRC. Also in the manga he looks like he's about to double-over by the time the fight is over, and his Cell Junior doesn't even have a scratch on him.

[dbgtFO]

Piccolo trained. Why? Because he was never suggested not to. Only Kuririn/Yamcha/Gohan were suggested to have stopped training. No reason to throw Piccolo in there.

Piccolo should received minimal / moderate gains. Just because it makes your other power levels iffy, doesn't mean you should hold onto a twisted POV...


It shouldn't be much, but it should be something... 80% gap or something you know? It is 7 years...

I don't know what this has to do with anyone's power levels. Piccolo is not shown to be significantly stronger in the Buu Arc, therefore I'm not required to go by minimum power increases or anything just because it's been 7 years. I don't see how saying that Piccolo just did maintenance training is a twisted POV at all.

@Fox666
So the Daizenshuu made a mistake... and so what? Does this automatically mean all the other profiles have mistakes as well?
No, because that's horrible logic, so why you'd point out the Tenshinhan vs. 19 mistake is beyond me, when it's not relevant to what they might say about Trunks, when it's not a mistake.
I mean it's your job to prove that Trunks being on par with #18 is an obvious mistake, otherwise it can be taken as fact, when it isn't going against established plot points.

And as a matter of fact it isn't, because we do in fact see, that it's a rather even match and the only stated reason for why the boys are at a disadvantage and slightly losing is because the suit greatly hinders their mobility. The "boys being far weaker" and "#18 holding back massively, because she suddenly decided to not instantly oneshot them like she did Jewel" is not a plot point and it's going against the writing to say that it was.

I mean I really couldn't care less about, what you personally believe about base Saiyan strength, but trying to counter the fight with something that isn't found in the text in the first place really doesn't help your case.

Also this:

And I suggest people to not take too deep the Daizenshuu "statements" about strength comparison. In this case it was merely a sumary of manga events. It's not like every line in the Daizenshuu serves as a veredict over character A x B. Strength comparsion was never the focus of Daizenshuu, and it's not like they care so much about it.

Sure why not, the story does dictate Fat Buu < Gotenks(pre) < Evil Buu anyways, so I'm fine with ignoring the Daizenshuu in this case, aren't you?

@TobyS
Why should I follow something that's not even suggested in the first place? Piccolo being much stronger in the Buu Arc than he was in the Cell Arc is not suggested, not implied, not anything, meaning if you want to believe he's ridiculously stronger than in the Cell Arc, I can safely say that it's not a fact. And your chain is also off, because Piccolo only went inside the RoSaT once.

Base Trunks wasn't getting slapped around by #18. She lands one hit, which does zero damage and that hit was only landed because Trunks and Goten were at a disadvantage due to the suit hindering their mobility. I mean it's stated by Trunks right before she lands that hit, that he can barely move. Otherwise they were evenly blocking all of eachothers' hits and neither could land a decisive blow and since the boys were at a disadvantage due to the suit, it's a pretty impressive showing, enough to question how well they could have done without the suit.

Honestly, I'm starting to believe people are only seeing what they like concerning that fight.

And...

Also Buu assumes the form of Piccolo when the kids defuse, now you can pretend it's because of Piccolos smarts are more important then the kids combined strength, but really it's just a logical round-about stretch to do that, Toriyama doesn't make tiny nuances like that for no reason with no explanation, besides, if smarts were more important then strength in deciding appearence, then why didn't he look like Piccolo when he had Gotenks absorbed?

Since neither is fact, whatever logic you may have on the subject is just as good as mine. And I think it's simple why he became Gotenks-Buu instead of Piccolo-Buu, when he absorbed them both. Super Gotenks' power was a bigger influence on him than Piccolo's intelligence, because it was the one thing he was mostly in need of.
When the fusion ends neither of what's left can give him a significant power increase, so Piccolo's intelligence is needed more than whatever power the kids might have.

I don't necessarily believe that the kids were more powerful than Piccolo in their regular forms, but saying that Gotenks-Buu reverting to Piccolo-Buu absolutely proves, that the base boys are weaker than Piccolo is just an assumption, which is as good as mine.
Sure it's what a lot of people in the fandom believe, but that doesn't make it fact, no matter how much one would like it to be.

[Fox666]

@Fox666
So the Daizenshuu made a mistake... and so what? Does this automatically mean all the other profiles have mistakes as well?
No, because that's horrible logic, so why you'd point out the Tenshinhan vs. 19 mistake is beyond me, when it's not relevant to what they might say about Trunks, when it's not a mistake.

I never said you must ignore everything in the Daizenshuu. I am only saying that you can't look at every summary in the Daizenshuu as evidence, especially considering the Daizenshuu doesn't give much focus on strength comparisons. Or at least, when it comes to summary of the manga events, it would be better to just look at the manga.

I mean it's your job to prove that Trunks being on par with #18 is an obvious mistake, otherwise it can be taken as fact, when it isn't going against established plot points.

What kind of proof you want? I already posted the manga pages, and that line of Trunks about he being of disadvantage. If it is because of power or because Trunks was wearing that suit like you said, doesn't change that his strength wasn't "on par" with no.18.

Besides you are forgetting that the Daizenshuu is not being specific about Trunks being "on par" is his regular state or Super Saiyan form. And to say the truth I don't think differing about Trunks form was really important and the summary refers to the battle as a whole. The fans who are too hard-core in this sense.

As I said before, the Daizenshuu don't care much about comparing characters strength, so that is one more reason why I find lame to ask for I to prove something.

And as a matter of fact it isn't, because we do in fact see, that it's a rather even match and the only stated reason for why the boys are at a disadvantage and slightly losing is because the suit greatly hinders their mobility. The "boys being far weaker" and "#18 holding back massively, because she suddenly decided to not instantly oneshot them like she did Jewel" is not a plot point and it's going against the writing to say that it was.

I mean I really couldn't care less about, what you personally believe about base Saiyan strength, but trying to counter the fight with something that isn't found in the text in the first place really doesn't help your case.

While Trunks was in disadvantage because of the suit, he also seemed to have problem catching her flying speed, or was afraid of her blast, etc.

[Kaboom]

Besides you are forgetting that the Daizenshuu is not being specific about Trunks being "on par" is his regular state or Super Saiyan form. And to say the truth I don't think differing about Trunks form was really important and the summary refers to the battle as a whole.

This is true, I think. The books are rarely ever form-specific in these things. Another example is one of Gotenks' bios, which mentions that he "surpassed Vegeta and the others" after his session in the Room of Spirit and Time. But does that mean his normal form, his already-powerful Super Saiyan form, or just by virtue of gaining Super Saiyan 3? Things are left vague that way, probably on purpose.

[Fox666]

And I must say, it's very unlikely that the Daizenshuu profile would refer to Trunks weakened form. If that line really means anything about how Trunks power compares to no.18, at best it refers to the Ki blast he fired as a Super Saiyan taking care of not causing any serious injury at no.18.

However my council is to not take it very serious and try to find any hidden meaning on it.

probably on purpose.

Toriyama is not the type that would give that kind of information. In interviews he never provided much usefull information about how one character compares to another in terms of strength, with a few exceptions.

Probably the Daizenshuu confuse us because they don't know it for sure. On the other hand, they ommited several battle powers, which is the most direct way of telling how strong someone is, so I guess this tell us what kind of importance they give to that kind of information.

[Kaboom]

That's what I meant. The guidebook's writers leave it a little vague.