"Power levels" from the Daizenshuu

Drunken Master · Post by **Drunken Master** » Tue Jul 25, 2006 10:44 pm

You guys are completely forgetting a fine point. That was not the kikoho, that was the shin kikoho. He most likley advanced the technique with his 'heavenly' training with North Kaio. He did say in the manga..."I can't hope to surpass Goku at the same training regiment...But If I master the essentials of the technique...and add a few twists of my own...I should be able to avoid another humilating defeat..."

He was probably talking about the kikoho. Being the ultimate version, he could pump more power into it and do it many times. That does sound 'ultimate' to me. Anyhow, his long training with North Kaio, and three years of intense, almost non-stop training would be enough to make the kikoho, NOW the more powerful shin kikoho powerful as hell.

DevilsAlwaysCry · Post by **DevilsAlwaysCry** » Tue Jul 25, 2006 10:51 pm

Onikage725 wrote:That also makes me think about Vegeta earlier in the saga. From 24k to just under 30k he went from Zarbon's plaything to total domination. That's a "mere" 6k range, and the improvement shown was drastic.

Well Vegeta caught Zarbon off guard with the sand he threw in Zarbon's eyes. Vegeta knew he had to take advantage of Zarbon's over confidence.

Post by **desirecampbell** » Tue Jul 25, 2006 11:03 pm

Drunken Master wrote:You guys are completely forgetting a fine point. That was not the kikoho, that was the shin kikoho. He most likley advanced the technique with his 'heavenly' training with North Kaio. He did say in the manga..."I can't hope to surpass Goku at the same training regiment...But If I master the essentials of the technique...and add a few twists of my own...I should be able to avoid another humilating defeat..."

He was probably talking about the kikoho. Being the ultimate version, he could pump more power into it and do it many times. That does sound 'ultimate' to me. Anyhow, his long training with North Kaio, and three years of training would be enough to make the kikoho, NOW the more powerful shin kikoho powerful as hell.

Eh? And the Chou Kamehameha was the 'ultimate' version of Goku's signature move, but I'm sure he couldn't have taken down Anyone that much more powerful than him.

I don't care what Ten called it, it was an energy attack. And he shouldn't have had that much energy in him.

Tien, at best, was a little stronger than Gero - probably signifigantly weaker than Gero. And Gero was weaker than #17, who was weaker than first form Cell, who was a lot weaker than second form Cell. There's no way Ten could have held Cell back. Each 'shin' kikoho acted like it was something that might actually almost hurt Cell. And Ten did a god-damn-dozen of 'em.

Drunken Master · Post by **Drunken Master** » Tue Jul 25, 2006 11:33 pm

The shin kikoho is vertical wall of ki. It's like running into a super brick wall, of course he's gonna be pushed down. No other attack in Dragon Ball is like it...It's not like it did any real damage, it only scratched and pissed off Cell. Look at the crater! It goes so deep, I don't even know if they showed the bottom in the manga, I can't really remember. Also, he only did five in the manga if I remember correctly. Well...it's around that. 5 or 6.

DevilsAlwaysCry · Post by **DevilsAlwaysCry** » Tue Jul 25, 2006 11:55 pm

Drunken Master wrote:The shin kikoho is vertical wall of ki. It's like running into a super brick wall, of course he's gonna be pushed down. No other attack in Dragon Ball is like it...It's not like it did any real damage, it only scratched and pissed off Cell. Look at the crater! It goes so deep, I don't even know if they showed the bottom in the manga, I can't really remember. Also, he only did five in the manga if I remember correctly. Well...it's around that. 5 or 6.

That is true. You could argue that the kikoho is the strongest technique in Dragonball Z next to the genki dama. I wonder why Son Goku never tried to learn such an awesome technique.

Rocketman · Post by **Rocketman** » Tue Jul 25, 2006 11:57 pm

The Chibi Kiriyama wrote:Essay

I disagree, I think the evidence points to Goku being constantly in KKx10 for the entire fight.

One scene in particular, when Freeza first goes 50%.

Freeza and Goku stare at each other for a sec. Goku thinks "He's...not bluffing!". Freeza charges forward, aura blazing, and smashes his elbow into Goku's face. Goku's eyes aren't blanked out, nor does he have any aura.

Freeza's attack doesn't even knock Goku off his feet.

Freeza cannot sense ki levels, so he wouldn't know to weaken his attack even if he wanted to.

50% Freeza is supposedly 60,000,000/6,000,000. Base Goku is supposedly 3,000,000/300,000. And a twenty times stronger Freeza can't even knock the Saiyan off his feet with a unblocked elbow to the face?

Xyex · Post by **Xyex** » Wed Jul 26, 2006 1:37 am

I still don't know where you got this, since it doesn't exist in any reliable source...

XDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD You do realize you just infered that the Daizenshuu is a reliable source, right? XDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD Ya.... ok....

As for "more reasonable" and "logical", obviously it's not.

Obviously not? Uh..... Obviously it is, to those who can think logically, at least.

Vegeta said (whilst Goku was in his natural state) that he was completely different, and apparently the power increase was indeed that tremendous- he went from believing he was a Super Saiyan after his zenkai to believing Goku could be the Super Saiyan. No Kaio-ken aura up at all, and yet he was so amazed by Goku's power he was willing to say he could be the one to beat Freeza.

Vegeta still, obviously, sucks at sensing powerlevels. He believed he could take out 4th Form Freeza. If his power sensing skill were on par with the others he'd have known he couldn't even touch him. Add to this the fact that he was dieing and I don't give a drop of credit to his ability to actually know how powerful Goku is.

Well then, what exactly does Vegeta know? He knows Goku was vastly superior to him when he first landed. Superior, even, to Ginyu. He also knows that Goku recieved a Zenkai that would have about doubled his power or so. He also knows that Goku can use the Kaio Ken and make himself even more powerful. Vegeta also knows that Goku, somehow, always manages to out do him. It would be simple, then, for Vegeta to conclude that Goku would be even more powerful than him, at this point. Plus, well, he's dieing and wants to get in the last word to Freeza.

That also makes me think about Vegeta earlier in the saga. From 24k to just under 30k he went from Zarbon's plaything to total domination. That's a "mere" 6k range, and the improvement shown was drastic.

Even better examples: Kui, at 18,000, was obliterated by Vegeta at 24,000. Dodoria was at 22,000 or 23,000 and Vegeta was at 24,000 still and Dodoria didn't stand a chance. You don't need a massive gap in numbers to have a massive difference in power.

I disagree, I think the evidence points to Goku being constantly in KKx10 for the entire fight.

One scene in particular, when Freeza first goes 50%.

Freeza and Goku stare at each other for a sec. Goku thinks "He's...not bluffing!". Freeza charges forward, aura blazing, and smashes his elbow into Goku's face. Goku's eyes aren't blanked out, nor does he have any aura.

Freeza's attack doesn't even knock Goku off his feet.

Freeza cannot sense ki levels, so he wouldn't know to weaken his attack even if he wanted to.

50% Freeza is supposedly 60,000,000/6,000,000. Base Goku is supposedly 3,000,000/300,000. And a twenty times stronger Freeza can't even knock the Saiyan off his feet with a unblocked elbow to the face?

Exactly. That would have killed Goku, right then and there, otherwise.

Duo · Post by **Duo** » Wed Jul 26, 2006 3:44 am

Why do people seem to think that someone is instantly killed when struck by someone 10+ times their strength?

Mr. Satan survived a blow from both Cell and Boo. All he got was some minor injuries.

Trunks got suckerpunched by Boo in the room of spirit and time and just got a sore cheek.

Yeah...

Rocketman · Post by **Rocketman** » Wed Jul 26, 2006 4:03 am

Duo wrote:Why do people seem to think that someone is instantly killed when struck by someone 10+ times their strength?

Mr. Satan survived a blow from both Cell and Boo. All he got was some minor injuries.

Trunks got suckerpunched by Boo in the room of spirit and time and just got a sore cheek.

Yeah...

Both of those were flung quite a ways by the force of the punch. Goku scoots back a couple inches.

Olivier Hague · Post by **Olivier Hague** » Wed Jul 26, 2006 7:20 am

Xyex wrote:XDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD You do realize you just infered that the Daizenshuu is a reliable source, right? XDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD

I'm sure you've got better ones.

Onikage725 · Post by **Onikage725** » Wed Jul 26, 2006 9:19 am

Duo wrote:Why do people seem to think that someone is instantly killed when struck by someone 10+ times their strength?

Mr. Satan survived a blow from both Cell and Boo. All he got was some minor injuries.

Trunks got suckerpunched by Boo in the room of spirit and time and just got a sore cheek.

Yeah...

Well...Satan's a whole different thing :p

He has that comic relief role that lets him hang in there long past when he should.

All the same, Cell didn't really put anything into the blow. He swatted him the way a human might swing at a fly. And flies often survive those casual swats, though a flies "battle power" is significantly lower than a humans.

But I think the point that was being made about Freeza is that he went all out. He wasn't being casual, he was specifically aiming to cause serious harm.

As far as that goes, I still hold that Goku not being dropped in one blow is more feasible with a 3 mil difference than a 30 mil difference, considering that (as I said about Piccolo vs 3rd from Freeza) 1 mil or so point differences made fights completely one sided just a handful of episodes/chapters prior to the scenes in question (and this is BEFORE we get into the "how much did SSJ increase Goku's power" portion of the debate).

Olivier Hague wrote: I'm sure you've got better ones.

Yea, the manga and anime. This side of the debate is basically claiming that the visual evidence and concepts presented in the manga and anime (which don't give a number for Freeza and Goku's battle) don't support a claim that the level of the fight went up 100 times above our last confirmed level. Or that a 33x Zenkai powerup is supported in any way, shape, or form by the source material. Just as there is a faction that believes the Daizenshuu was wrong listing Nappa as capping off at 4,000, we here on this side of the debate think they fudged a zero. It also isn't the only time they mix up a PL number.

I've said this before, but Raditz and the Saibaimen are a Daizenshuu error, which proves error is possible in these books. Recap: the series tells us Radtiz and the Saibaimen are "over 1200" and that the Saibaimen are "EQUAL to Raditz, every one of them."

Daizenshuu list:
Raditz: 1500
Saibaimen: 1200

We could argue forever if Nappa for some reason rounded 1500 down to 12-ish (because that makes any kind of sense at all [/sarcasm]), but they are also said to have been dead even and yet the "DBZ bible" here gives us 2 different numbers.

I also think it's funny that in any other fandom I've been in if a secondary, though officially licensed source makes a typo or seemingly fudges a fact or bit of trivia it's just considered a small error. In DBZ, these errors are defended and the evidence in the series warped to match. Yet god forbid someone mentions filler in the anime. 2nd level canon has numerous instances where people disregard what they think wasn't feasible or presented in the original manga, yet 3rd level canon (which takes from the anime and movies just as much as the manga) is utterly infallible?

Onikage725 · Post by **Onikage725** » Wed Jul 26, 2006 9:51 am

And food for thought, for anyone who thinks 300,000 is "too weak," Kaio-ken be damned.

Goku arrives on Namek at 90,000.

With a mere 6-fold Kaio-ken, he would have been able to put Freeza through the paces in first form. A 10-fold should have been sufficient to kill him, and a 20-fold most certainly would have let him end the battle before he had a chance to transform (we can thank Vegeta for that one).

If you think about it, as amazing as powerful as Vegeta seemed when he clashed with 1st form Freeza, or Piccolo after fusion, Goku upon arrival was better. Not because 100g training shot his base power to a point that he would mutate and his Zenkais would give him 33x increases. No, because 100g training strengthened his body to a point that he could do amazing things with kaio-ken. He even says as much. After he feels normal at 100g, he drops the gravity to normal and feels light as a feather, but strong too. He adds that he bet he could handle Kaio-ken x 10.

Being comfy with Kaio-ken x10 and capable of going beyond that up to x20, Goku upon arrival could have done battle with Freeza's second form and maybe put a dent in 3rd form (before burning out, much as he did against 50% final form).

So explain to me how a more than triple increase in base power from this point is considered "weak?"

And Goku, while sensing Freeza in 3rd form, begins to wonder if he could influence the battle even after he fully recovered. I would think that if 3rd form Freeza was so big and bad as to give Goku pause, that if 4th form showed off a "small percentage" that was about 15 times stronger than that (from a comparison standpoint that would be like Goku doing a Kaio-ken x15), it would have been deserving of a "holy f******* shit" from at least Piccolo (as opposed to the "he's fricken strong but Goku's got this" attitude we did get).

Olivier Hague · Post by **Olivier Hague** » Wed Jul 26, 2006 2:01 pm

Onikage725 wrote:
Olivier Hague wrote: I'm sure you've got better ones.
Yea, the manga and anime.

I... I'm tempted to reply "XDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD You do realize you just infered that the anime is a reliable source, right? XDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD".

I really don't have a problem with the stuff stated in the Daizenshû, which I consider to be an official companion to the manga (and/or anime, for some of the volumes). Certainly not to the point of saying "meh, they're not reliable, but what I just came up with as a fan certainly is!" (what the hell?).

Power levels are here for dramatic effect, and that's pretty much it. You think there are some stretches in the way the Daizenshû deal with them? What, you didn't see any of those in the manga to begin with? Power levels aren't a science. At all. I don't see the point in pretending they are.

Raditz and the Saibaimen are a Daizenshuu error, which proves error is possible in these books.

It's not like we needed evidence, did we? Of course they're fallible. Who isn't?

Recap: the series tells us Radtiz and the Saibaimen are "over 1200" and that the Saibaimen are "EQUAL to Raditz, every one of them."
Daizenshuu list:
Raditz: 1500
Saibaimen: 1200

'Could be an approximation. 'Could be a translation issue (what's his line, in the Japanese version?)
'Certainly is irrelevant.

We could argue forever if Nappa for some reason rounded 1500 down to 12-ish (because that makes any kind of sense at all [/sarcasm])

I really don't see the problem with that explanation.
Can you picture Nappa telling his enemies that the Saibaimen are "almost as strong as Raditz buuuuut not quite"? What would the point be? Is he trying to inform them (before killing them, but oh well, Nappa was a teacher in another life or something) or is he trying to instill some good ol' despair?

2nd level canon [...] 3rd level canon

Who defined these levels of "canon", again?

Onikage725 · Post by **Onikage725** » Wed Jul 26, 2006 2:43 pm

Olivier Hague wrote:
I really don't have a problem with the stuff stated in the Daizenshû, which I consider to be an official companion to the manga (and/or anime, for some of the volumes). Certainly not to the point of saying "meh, they're not reliable, but what I just came up with as a fan certainly is!" (what the hell?).

I didn't say they weren't reliable, just that they are open to speculation and are capable of error.

'Could be an approximation. 'Could be a translation issue (what's his line, in the Japanese version?)
'Certainly is irrelevant.

That's his line in the subs and the manga, and pretty much what every fansubber I've seen before we had subs. Nappa did tell us that the Saibaimen were "over 1200" and that they were equal to Raditz. Facts presented in manga and anime that the Daizenshuu seems to dispute.

I really don't see the problem with that explanation.
Can you picture Nappa telling his enemies that the Saibaimen are "almost as strong as Raditz buuuuut not quite"? What would the point be? Is he trying to inform them (before killing them, but oh well, Nappa was a teacher in another life or something) or is he trying to instill some good ol' despair?

You clearly don't remember the scene. Tenshinhan FLATTENED a Saibaiman in seconds, and Nappa replied with shock that this basically shouldn't be happeneing because each of his "pets" was (again I drectly quote) "EQUAL" to Raditz.

Also, considering that the Daizenshuu lists Yamcha at 1480 and he creamed a Saibaimen easily (sneak attacks aside), Ten laid his out with a Daiz listing of 1830, and Kuririn killed 4 of them with a Daiz listed PL 1770, then, going by the Daizenshuu at least, 300 points is certainly a big deal. So either we assume all of the Daiz levels are wrong and raise the heroes levels to support opponents of 1500, or we assume the Daiz made a single error on Raditz. Personally I think the Daizenshuu are reliable provided they don't contradict, and therefore don't have a problem with the presented levels for the humans stemming off the manga statement of approx. 1200.

Who defined these levels of "canon", again?

It's simple math, really. There's a manga. Obviously the highest authority. There is an official anime produced alongside this manga which is considered reliable insofar as it doesn't contrdict the manga (obviously Dr. Frappe didn't create #8 and Vegeta-sei's "Kami" didn't summon an asteroid field to crash into the planet). Then there are secondary sourcebooks based on both of the previous properties. If you slam the anime, you can't exactly sing about the perfection of the Daizenshuu lists, considering it takes some levels from the anime (Vegeta 30,000 vs Rikum for example).

I could poke holes in the list all day. Quicky- Gohan on Namek. The Daizenshuu seems to think the kid topped off at 14k...funny considering this is the same kid we see get two Zenkai-worthy situations and scare Freeza into ascending into his last form.

But my point isn't that the Daizenshuu suck or are rubish. Just that it's not so wierd to think they may have made an error.

And about your anti-anime as reliable comment, I feel compelled to remind you that the Daizenshuu cover DB as a whole. Filler, anime-only PL's, movies, GT. Dr. Frappe, Lime, Haiya Dragon, and Paikuhan appear on the Daizenshuu master character list, after all (vol. 7 I believe). Where did they get them from?

Olivier Hague · Post by **Olivier Hague** » Wed Jul 26, 2006 4:24 pm

Onikage725 wrote:I didn't say they weren't reliable, just that they are open to speculation and are capable of error.

Just like Toriyama himself. Hell, maybe Toriyama is responsible for some of the Daizenshû's errors.

That's his line in the subs and the manga, and pretty much what every fansubber I've seen before we had subs. Nappa did tell us that the Saibaimen were "over 1200" and that they were equal to Raditz.

Did he really make a huge deal about them being "exactly equal, really!"? I kinda doubt it.

You clearly don't remember the scene.

No, I don't, sorry.

300 points is certainly a big deal.

Maybe not to Nappa.

Who defined these levels of "canon", again?
It's simple math, really.

Oh, come on...

There's a manga. Obviously the highest authority.

Yes.
But the rest of your argument is highly subjective.

about your anti-anime as reliable comment, I feel compelled to remind you that the Daizenshuu cover DB as a whole.

Volumes 1, 2 and 4 only cover the manga, actually.

The Chibi Kiriyama · Post by **The Chibi Kiriyama** » Wed Jul 26, 2006 5:00 pm

Why do people here continue to think it's too high? In 10 month's training (barely the full year) Goku went from about 400 when he first arrived to a max of over 32,000 using the Kaio x4. Heck, Goku was around 85,000 when he fights Ginyu and through the Kaio-ken x10 (which he said he mastered) could have achieved a power close to a million. The point is not "OMG NO ZENKAI WAS LIKE THAT STRONG!" The point of the matter is what we see. You can't overlook the basic fact that the Kaio-ken multiplies power by folds or that Goku (in a single zenkai with no Kaio-ken present) fought Freeza to a standstill. If the numbers get too high, throw away the mistranslation. I personally only agree with the Daizenshuu because my own estimates match it. One can say he was around 200 mil as a Super Saiyan, or one could say the Daizenshuu shot too far and go around 125 mil. But 12 million is way to low. Let's look at what some are saying here.

Goku: 300,000
Goku (Kaio-ken times 10): 3,000,000
Goku (Kaio-ken times 20): 6,000,000

How does that make sense? We see nothing that denotes the Kaio-ken. Goku says it's true power works in bursts; the elongated one he did for Ginyu was just to peacefully scare him off. So, if logic dictates it works in bursts, it can't be constantly used in fighting without even an aura for the reader to see. That's like saying Saiyans can be Super Saiyan without a hair/eye color change. Toriyama-sensei is a tad forgetful, but not that forgetful. And, like I have said, Goku fought a completely onpar fight with Freeza without the aid of the Kaio-ken until the foot-to-hand battle (one were Goku drew blood from Freeza without an aura). And you're forgetting a few very important quotes:

Freeza: "And I know you still have a great deal of power in reserve you've tried to hide from me..."

Misunderstood, you garner this from the post- that Freeza was saying Goku had yet to use full power, which you see to be Kaio-ken times 20. But that's faulty logic. Goku saw his 'full power' as being the Kaio-ken times 10.

Tenshinhan: "At his level of training, he should be able to multiply his power up to a factor of 10!"

Ten sees Goku's max without straining himself to be a factor of 10, and again reiterates that the Kaio-ken still multiplies by folds.

Kuririn: "I just hope Goku's got some kind of plan! If this is as bad as it looks..."

Piccolo: "He has none. Freeza's power was greater than he or I ever imaginged."

Both Kuririn and Piccolo have observed that Goku's reserve power that Freeza commented on (usage of the 10 fold Kaio-ken) was dwarfed by the sheer force of 50% Freeza. In fact, Piccolo had more to speak of on the matter beforehand.

Piccolo: "There was too great a discrepancy between their respective reserves..."

This means that the aura Goku put up when he rushed 50% Freeza after the initial elbow was indeed his reserve power, the Kaio-ken times 10. It's just that Freeza was so strong that even at Goku's notion of 'full power' he still outclassed him. And just to stake the belief here...

Goku: "I...I could try a Kaio-ken increase to 20 times...but I don't know if my body can handle it..."

Goku confirms through his hesitance that Piccolo and Kuririn were right. His threshold is the Kaio-ken times 10. The only reason he used the Kaio-ken times 20 was because he was desperate and did not forsee Freeza to be so erroneously strong that he would have to push himself so, not unlike how he took a risk in the fight with Vegeta by using a Kaio-ken he had never tried before at the cost of his personal well-being. In fact, it's an exact mirror- Goku is completely drained after the Kaio-ken times 20 and as a price (just like his usage of the Kaio-ken times three, then 4) finds himself losing chi rapidly and temporarily unable to replicate the attack.

So the problem I see here is that most say his max was Kaio-ken times 20, which they see to validate Freeza's "reserve power" remark when it was actually the Kaio-ken times 10 Goku had been keeping from him during the course of the previous battle.

Hand-to-foot battle = Kaio-ken aura, but definitely not Kaio-ken times 10
50% battle = definitely a Kaio-ken times 10 aura as confirmed by Kaio

Onikage725 · Post by **Onikage725** » Wed Jul 26, 2006 5:59 pm

Olivier Hague wrote: Just like Toriyama himself. Hell, maybe Toriyama is responsible for some of the Daizenshû's errors.

Speculative. Toriyama contributed some content and designs and notes, true. We have sketches that were his to go on for example. However there's never any mention of him listing extra power levels. He didn't oversee or lord over non-manga DB productions. He's even gone on record saying he didn't really keep up with the anime and what-not, as he was busy enough meeting deadlines on his manga.

Did he really make a huge deal about them being "exactly equal, really!"? I kinda doubt it.

His exact line was "equal to Raditz." You can speculate that he meant something other than what he said if you wish.

Maybe not to Nappa.

If that was the case, or if it was about psyching people out, he would have been rounding down when he used the scouter on the Z senshi when he first arrived. If a few hundred points was nothing, wouldn't he by that logic have read Gohan off as "about 1,000?"

Volumes 1, 2 and 4 only cover the manga, actually.

We're talking about power levels. Which means we're talking about volume 7. Which is most certainly not manga-only.

How does that make sense? We see nothing that denotes the Kaio-ken.

We see nothing to denote the Kaio-ken throughout the fight until 20-fold, yet we know he used it. Kaio-sama tells us so. Tenshinhan was watching the battle and thought it hadn't been used. There weren't any traditional Kaio-ken markers.

Also, the problem I have with the logic you're using Kiriyama isn't that it's wrong. It makes perfect sense. But I think it makes sense no matter which side of the debate you're on. If Goku was exorcising burst of 30 million vs 30 million or 3 million against 3 million, it's the same ration. If x20 put Goku at half of Freeza, then it's 6 mil vs 6 mil or 60 vs 60. Both cases are leagues beyond what any other character was capable of, and the ratios and facts work either way. The question comes in with whether or not you think the extra zero in the Daizenshuu listing is supported by evidence from the fight and the preceding events.

So the problem I see here is that most say his max was Kaio-ken times 20, which they see to validate Freeza's "reserve power" remark when it was actually the Kaio-ken times 10 Goku had been keeping from him during the course of the previous battle.

Keep in mind that Freeza can't sense ki (nor would one be able to sense Kaio-ken levels before they were activated anyway), whatever he felt to be Goku's true power was concluded much the same way Ginyu guessed Goku's maximum to be 85,000- battle experience and a hunch drawn from the fight thus far.

Olivier Hague · Post by **Olivier Hague** » Wed Jul 26, 2006 9:45 pm

Onikage725 wrote:Toriyama contributed some content and designs and notes, true. We have sketches that were his to go on for example. However there's never any mention of him listing extra power levels.

'Doesn't necessarily mean he didn't provide them though. We don't know.

He's even gone on record saying he didn't really keep up with the anime and what-not, as he was busy enough meeting deadlines on his manga.

But we weren't talking about the anime, here, right?
Not to mention he was done with the manga, at the time of the Daizenshû.

His exact line was "equal to Raditz."

What was it in Japanese though?

We're talking about power levels. Which means we're talking about volume 7.

I don't have the Daizenshû right here, but I thought these power levels were mentioned in volume 2? 'Could be wrong though. It's been... a decade? since I last read them...

We're talking about power levels. Which means we're talking about volume 7. Which is most certainly not manga-only.

But just because it's in a book that covers both the manga and the anime, that doesn't necessarily mean that particular information is derivative from the anime. Besides, volume 7 generally refers to the manga rather than to the anime, except for obvious cases like filler episodes, movies, original anime characters, etc.

The Chibi Kiriyama · Post by **The Chibi Kiriyama** » Wed Jul 26, 2006 10:08 pm

Onikage725 wrote:We see nothing to denote the Kaio-ken throughout the fight until 20-fold, yet we know he used it. Kaio-sama tells us so. Tenshinhan was watching the battle and thought it hadn't been used. There weren't any traditional Kaio-ken markers.

You must've missed the part where his eyes blank out and his aura blazes on when he rushes Freeza. It's obviously the Kaio-ken. He misses Freeza because the aura is down. Pages 148 and 149 show this quite clearly.

Also, the problem I have with the logic you're using Kiriyama isn't that it's wrong. It makes perfect sense. But I think it makes sense no matter which side of the debate you're on. If Goku was exorcising burst of 30 million vs 30 million or 3 million against 3 million, it's the same ration. If x20 put Goku at half of Freeza, then it's 6 mil vs 6 mil or 60 vs 60. Both cases are leagues beyond what any other character was capable of, and the ratios and facts work either way. The question comes in with whether or not you think the extra zero in the Daizenshuu listing is supported by evidence from the fight and the preceding events.

That's what I just wrote two posts on- the validity of said increase and why it's not stupendous at all.

Keep in mind that Freeza can't sense ki (nor would one be able to sense Kaio-ken levels before they were activated anyway), whatever he felt to be Goku's true power was concluded much the same way Ginyu guessed Goku's maximum to be 85,000- battle experience and a hunch drawn from the fight thus far.

...And how does this contradict anything I had to say? No one thought Goku was going to push himself to use a Kaio-ken times 10, and Freeza didn't expect it because he thought he already guaged Goku's full power. He did, he just didn't expect Goku to make a desperation move that would actually come close to harming him. I haven't refuted that at all, and if anything it extends the proof that x20 was neither the reserve power Freeza spoke of nor anything that Goku had planned.

Rocketman · Post by **Rocketman** » Thu Jul 27, 2006 12:27 am

The Chibi Kiriyama wrote:We see nothing that denotes the Kaio-ken.

What about 50% Freeza's charged elbow attack to Goku's face? Unblocked, charged (Freeza had an aura), and Goku had no Kaioken, and it doesn't even knock Goku off his feet.

Could a non-Kaioken-using Goku do that if he's twenty times weaker?