Why did Toriyama bow down to his editors?

GS7X7 · Post by **GS7X7** » Thu Jul 16, 2009 6:31 pm

I remember long ago that there was an article where Toriyama talked about how his editor/sa basically forced him to keep changing his story during the Cell saga. (I tried finding it on Greg's page but the links seems to be down at the moment and his old site is blocked from the internet archives Planet Namek-style)

He disliked the first two android ("too old") so he forced Toriyama to changed them.

He disliked the two new androids ("teenagers") so he again forced Toriyama to make something new.

He disliked Cell so he forced Toriyama to change him.

Toriyama grew to really like Cell's 2nd form and had a lot planned for it. But ol Torishima deemed him too ugly and stupid looking so Toriyama changed it AGAIN.

Finally, at long last, his dick of an editor was satisfied with Perfect Cell.

My question is, why did Toriyama basically let himself become his editor's bitch? It was his story and it was pretty huge in Japan at the time, wasn't he powerful enough that he could have held the manga hostage and simply done what he wanted to regardless of what Torishima wanted? Why did Toriyama keep submitting to him so passively?

Are manga editors really all that powerful that even the biggest of manga authors feel the need to bow down to all of their whims? Or are there manga authors who actively resist and fight against doing whatever their editors demand?

(also, here's a fresh link with the article-

http://www.kanzentai.com/daiz02.php?id=shenron_times)

-------------------
Kazuhiko Torishima (initial editor)

Was the editor continuing from "Dr. Slump" until the 23rd Tenkaichi Budoukai in "DragonBall". It seems that he was the individual who served as the model for Piccolo Daimao.

AT: You're terrible to say that, Torishima-san. Right around then was when the Artificial Humans No. 19 and No. 20 appeared. You weren't my editor or anything anymore, but you specifically called me to say "I thought that the enemies had finally come, but aren't these just a geezer and a fatso?" (laughs) In truth, I hadn't had plans for anyone but No. 19 and No. 20 to appear. But there was no helping it, so I brought out No. 17 and No. 18. Then you called me up and said "What, this time it's just some brats?" So I brought out Cell. (laughs)

FT: So you hadn't planned on Cell appearing at all?

AT: That's right. I liked No. 19 and No. 20 just fine. And I liked the initial Cell fine as well.

FT: The bug-like one?

AT: But Kondou-san said "He looks ugly. Of course, he can transform.", so I had no choice but to transform him into his second-form.

Yuu Kondou (second editor)

Coming from a shoujo magazine to Jump, he became editor of "DragonBall" right off the bat. He was editor from the Saiya-jin arc to right before perfect-form Cell appeared. He is the model for Freeza.

YK: Was that how it was?

AT: And then you were really awful, Kondou-san. "This time, doesn't he look like a moron? Hurry up and make him into his perfect-form." you said.

YK: But he really did look like a moron. (laughs)

AT: With second-form Cell as well, I liked him well enough. Actually, I had wanted him to play a more active role. But since I was told he looked stupid, I had no choice but to change him. (laughs) So I made him into his cool-looking perfect-form, which was to Kondou-san's liking.

Rocketman · Post by **Rocketman** » Thu Jul 16, 2009 6:38 pm

The Japanese bow to anyone.[/joke]

More seriously, he probably didn't much care for 'the integrity of the story' or whatever. By the Cell Saga, he'd been doing the manga for nearly a decade straight.

kei17 · Post by **kei17** » Thu Jul 16, 2009 6:57 pm

This kind of story is not very special. Rather, it's a usual story in manga business. That means most of mangaka are their editor's bitches, in your words. Actually, Torishima is known as a very strict editor (his favourite phrase is NG) and occasionally gets too severe, but he is the very one who found and polished Akira Toriyama's talent. It is not strange that Toriyama can't say no to him.

GS7X7 · Post by **GS7X7** » Thu Jul 16, 2009 7:02 pm

What does NG mean? Is it a Japanese phrase? I assume it's English for "no good"?

Tyro · Post by **Tyro** » Thu Jul 16, 2009 7:03 pm

Why wouldn't Toriyama listen to his editor? The manga had been going strong for a long time now. He was making Toriyama rich.

kei17 · Post by **kei17** » Thu Jul 16, 2009 7:03 pm

GS7X7 wrote:What does NG mean? Is it a Japanese phrase? I assume it's English for "no good"?

No good. In Japanese, "Botsu".
To begin with, it is very, very usual that a Japanese person can't say no to his boss, I think.

Super Sonic · Post by **Super Sonic** » Thu Jul 16, 2009 8:07 pm

I'm guessing that's what they translated into "Reject!/Rejected!" all the time in English Dr. Slump.

Bussani · Post by **Bussani** » Thu Jul 16, 2009 8:15 pm

As Kei said, this is pretty normal in the world of manga. Makoto Raiku drew side-strips of his dealings with the editors all the time, and joked about how he'd always go suggesting strange things for the manga and how the editor would just say, "yeah, no." "I didn't think so."

Post by **Herms** » Thu Jul 16, 2009 8:41 pm

Torishima was actually not even Toriyama's editor at the time, but he called Toriyama to express his dissatisfaction with 19&20 and then 17&18 anyway. It was then Toriyama's current editor, Kondou Yuu, who complained about the designs for Cell's first two forms.

Toriyama switched from Yuu to his final editor, Fuyuto Takeda, after Cell reached his perfect form. I've always wondered if this change in editors had anything to do with Kondou's complaints about Cell.

GS7X7 · Post by **GS7X7** » Thu Jul 16, 2009 10:09 pm

It sounds like it....

Btw, I heard that the Japanese fandom forced Toriyama to bring back Goku and make him save the day. That they hated him killing off Goku during the Cell saga and sent him an overwhelming amount of hate mail about it so he was kind of twisted into doing it against his will.

I guess it's not very surprising, imagine if Bleach lasted 10 years and they killed off Ichigo or if Naruto went into "Naruto Z" and they tried to replace Naruto with his son as the main character.

Although I imagine most fans would be immature about something like, I could have seen great potential for Gohan as the main character. Despite Goku being made into the top dog I think Toriyama still made Gohan stronger than him despite that, just to spite everyone who forced him to do the alterations.

I don't know if anyone's heard this before but I remember reading something like this on a massive topic several years ago. I could try to search for it again if anyone likes. (I think it's on ign.com's dbz boards, though I'm not entirely sure)

Post by **Herms** » Fri Jul 17, 2009 3:03 am

GS7X7 wrote:Btw, I heard that the Japanese fandom forced Toriyama to bring back Goku and make him save the day. That they hated him killing off Goku during the Cell saga and sent him an overwhelming amount of hate mail about it so he was kind of twisted into doing it against his will.

That's another rumor that fans have been passing along for a long time, but has no actual source as far as I know.

Cold Skin · Post by **Cold Skin** » Fri Jul 17, 2009 8:12 am

You know, it's common things that the creators of a story have to suit the will of their "superiors", the same goes for TV series for example: if the channel says "no, you can't do that, it's too much" or "rewrite that part, it's too complicated for the audience" or "it would be better if that character was gone", the ones writting the stories have to deal with it, either fighting for their opinion, but eventually being forced to do what the editor wants anyway, at least in most cases, cause there are stubborn creators who sometimes end up being able to do what they wanted.

You often hear how a "superior entity" was pushing for this or that to be done or undone in audio comments of series or movies, so I guess it has to be true for everyone. Then depending on the writer's temper and his will to fight (and potentially look for troubles in the near future) or obey (and keeping things cool). But anyway, I think most creators, whether it's a movie, a TV series, a manga or a novel, can't possibly write a story without having a superior saying "well, that's not it, that's not what the audience likes, change things" at some point. That's part of the deal, part of their job, someone who writes a story will have that story checked and will be asked to change some points of the story to make a success.

And as always, we'll never know what it would have really given in the end and if we would really like it or not: maybe the story would have been better, but maybe it would have been worse too.
As far as I'm concerned, I'm not unhappy about having more than just 19 and 20, I know that!

With 17 and 18 and Cell's evolution, the arc is pretty fascinating to me. And Toriyama found a way to bring Cell's second form again for a while during the Cell Game, now that we know he liked it much, the idea of Cell turning back to what he used to be for a few pages has a whole new dimension, despite obviously being meant to add to his desperation storywise!

Raki · Post by **Raki** » Fri Jul 17, 2009 10:19 am

Toriyama listened because the editors know how to make money. I'd listen to them too.

Saiyan-Professor · Post by **Saiyan-Professor** » Fri Jul 17, 2009 11:06 am

Raki wrote:Toriyama listened because the editors know how to make money. I'd listen to them too.

I agree, Toriyama has made it clear on many of occasions he that he was in it for the money. I seriously doubt that he takes the manga as serious as many on the forum. The thing we complain about or argue over does not even register on his radar.

GS7X7 · Post by **GS7X7** » Fri Jul 17, 2009 12:38 pm

How much money was he offered to return after the Freeza saga? I heard they offered him a huge fortune since they didn't want him to retire.

Chibi Mystic Gohan · Post by **Chibi Mystic Gohan** » Fri Jul 17, 2009 1:26 pm

He wasn't going to quit after Freeza. That's another one of those Internet rumors.

SparkyPantsMcGee · Post by **SparkyPantsMcGee** » Fri Jul 17, 2009 6:53 pm

That's normal in the entertainment business. Toriyama listened(as many other do) because Editors, Producers etc. are the ones bringing you the money and giving you a job. As an artist I hate to be controlled but sometimes you just have to do what the big man says...that is if you want to eat.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vgYhLIThTvk

...See this type of crap is everywhere^

Though in that case it was better to walk away and not get involved lol

Bussani · Post by **Bussani** » Fri Jul 17, 2009 10:02 pm

That's a good point. The artist is basically working for them, not vice versa. If you want to get published, the first person you have to please is your editor/publisher.

mAcChaos · Post by **mAcChaos** » Fri Jul 17, 2009 11:40 pm

Well, the editor seems like they have their finger more on the pulse of what would be a good idea, so...

Raki · Post by **Raki** » Sat Jul 18, 2009 12:37 am

mAcChaos wrote:Well, the editor seems like they have their finger more on the pulse of what would be a good idea, so...

Indeed. If anything we should be thanking them for all the awesome ideas. Without them the stories might have sucked.