Fire Ball? (Ki Discussion)

SSJ2bardock · Post by **SSJ2bardock** » Tue Nov 10, 2009 7:27 pm

I've never quite fully understood this scene.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hdgn_Nr1XWQ

Is Vegeta actually throwing a fire ball or was it just one of those early animation inconsistencies like when Goku goes all iridescent the first time he uses Kaioken?

If it is a fire ball then when in the hell did the characters from the show gain elemental powers?

Kendamu · Post by **Kendamu** » Tue Nov 10, 2009 7:35 pm

I'm pretty sure that it's not literally fire. I'm guessing that it's just some oddly-colored energy technique.

Or it could be like the two styles of Hadouken.. the normal one and the fire one. They never really called it "elemental powers" though. It was just one being fire-ish and the other being energy-ish.

Nils_McCloud · Post by **Nils_McCloud** » Tue Nov 10, 2009 7:36 pm

When in the hell did the characters from the show gain elemental powers?

Taiyoken, to some extent, can be seen as elemental (Power of the sun?)

I think it was a regular ki blast shaped like a fireball, otherwise it wouldn't explode on contact, I think.

caejones · Post by **caejones** » Tue Nov 10, 2009 7:38 pm

Arguably you just need to set something on fire with your ki and you've got a fireball... XD.

On a somewhat related note...
A Kamehameha is not a fireball. A Kamehameha is not a fireball. A Kamehameha is not a fireball. And I am glad I haven't heard this for a few years, but for a while there ...

penguintruth · Post by **penguintruth** » Tue Nov 10, 2009 7:41 pm

Vegeta had those fire flowers stuffed in his armor.

Imagine how bad it would have gone for Goku if Vegeta had flashing stars.

SSJ2bardock · Post by **SSJ2bardock** » Tue Nov 10, 2009 7:56 pm

Nils_McCloud wrote:explode on contact, I think.

Which brings up another question that I've had for a while.

Why do ki blasts cause explosions and things to set on fire in the dragonball world? So many times you see the animation of an explosion after a ki blast makes contact or smoke rising up from the rubble. Wouldn't it simply make a crater in the ground or scar the Earth up a little bit. I've never really understood how the fire got involved with it...

-edit-

Oh and it doesn't help that they had crackling fire sound effects placed into that scene in some of the dubs

Timo · Post by **Timo** » Tue Nov 10, 2009 7:58 pm

penguintruth wrote:Vegeta had those fire flowers stuffed in his armor.

Imagine how bad it would have gone for Goku if Vegeta had flashing stars.

True. Too bad Goku's Yoshi was killed by Nappa.

Kendamu · Post by **Kendamu** » Tue Nov 10, 2009 8:05 pm

SSJ2bardock wrote:
Nils_McCloud wrote:explode on contact, I think.
Which brings up another question that I've had for a while.

Why do ki blasts cause explosions and things to set on fire in the dragonball world? So many times you see the animation of an explosion after a ki blast makes contact or smoke rising up from the rubble. Wouldn't it simply make a crater in the ground or scar the Earth up a little bit. I've never really understood how the fire got involved with it...

Probably for the sake of entertainment.

In-universe, maybe condensed energy at high velocity instantly expands like an explosion after a certain point.

SSJ2bardock · Post by **SSJ2bardock** » Tue Nov 10, 2009 8:12 pm

Kendamu wrote:
SSJ2bardock wrote:
Nils_McCloud wrote:explode on contact, I think.
Which brings up another question that I've had for a while.

Why do ki blasts cause explosions and things to set on fire in the dragonball world? So many times you see the animation of an explosion after a ki blast makes contact or smoke rising up from the rubble. Wouldn't it simply make a crater in the ground or scar the Earth up a little bit. I've never really understood how the fire got involved with it...
Probably for the sake of entertainment.

Yeah, that's what I've pretty much gotten out of it, it just always irks me when they show smoke or charred remains without fire. Then again, you don't technically need fire to have smoke.

Which brings me to yet another question

What does it feel like to get hit with a ki blast such as the Kamehameha? Is the blast really hot, which would give a burning sensation or is it just like getting hit really hard? Later on in the series characters are shown being disintegrated by blasts which would lead you to believe that ki burns, but in early Dragonball it would appear that the ki just hits you really hard.

Kiyza · Post by **Kiyza** » Tue Nov 10, 2009 10:20 pm

I just remembered, in volume 18, there's a panel where Gohan lights a fire with his ki. But in contrast, in volume 2, Kame-sennin puts out a fire with his Kamehameha. Maybe there's two different kinds of ki blasts?

Kingdom Heartless · Post by **Kingdom Heartless** » Tue Nov 10, 2009 10:32 pm

Kiyza wrote:I just remembered, in volume 18, there's a panel where Gohan lights a fire with his ki. But in contrast, in volume 2, Kame-sennin puts out a fire with his Kamehameha. Maybe there's two different kinds of ki blasts?

There are many different types, I'm sure. It's all in how you intend them. My guess is, if you know what you're doing, you can use your ki for just about anything. I mean, flying, levitating, killing and healing (I'm talking about Goku healing Freeza... not that...other thing).

Bussani · Post by **Bussani** » Tue Nov 10, 2009 10:33 pm

The effect of ki varies depending on how it's being used. For example, characters don't set the ground on fire when they use bukujutsu.

Some ki attacks are definitely hot. Goku burned his hands blocking one of Freeza's attacks. Some ki attacks contain a lot of pent up energy, that makes them go off like bombs upon impact. Others aren't designed to explode, but instead to pierce, such as Dodonpa or Makankosappo. Then there's Kienzan, that cuts cleanly; it doesn't melt what it cuts through like a beam saber or anything like that, it's just razor thin. Kiai attacks don't even give off light, let alone heat -- they're just a blunt impact.

What most ki attacks have in common is that they're a kinetic force of some sort. I think the best way to imagine getting hit by something like a Kamehameha might be to think of an extremely high pressure hose shooting boiling water.

As for 'elemental powers'...considering how versatile ki is in Dragon Ball, I wouldn't be surprised if someone could use their ki to make a ball of fire. In the 21st tournament, Roshi somehow created lightning from his hands to electrocute Goku. And like Nils said, Taiyoken creates a blinding flash of light. I think how you use ki is only limited by your imagination. Just look at Super Ghost Kamikaze attack...

PS: 'Fireball' is the traditional name for any Hadoken style projectile, even though a normal Hadoken itself technically isn't made of fire.

SHINOBI-03 · Post by **SHINOBI-03** » Tue Nov 10, 2009 11:44 pm

I don't have the kanzenban at hand, but that's how it was in the Red & Gray scale.

Godo · Post by **Godo** » Wed Nov 11, 2009 1:21 pm

SSJ2bardock wrote:
Kendamu wrote:
SSJ2bardock wrote: Which brings up another question that I've had for a while.

Why do ki blasts cause explosions and things to set on fire in the dragonball world? So many times you see the animation of an explosion after a ki blast makes contact or smoke rising up from the rubble. Wouldn't it simply make a crater in the ground or scar the Earth up a little bit. I've never really understood how the fire got involved with it...
Probably for the sake of entertainment.
Yeah, that's what I've pretty much gotten out of it, it just always irks me when they show smoke or charred remains without fire. Then again, you don't technically need fire to have smoke.

Which brings me to yet another question

What does it feel like to get hit with a ki blast such as the Kamehameha? Is the blast really hot, which would give a burning sensation or is it just like getting hit really hard? Later on in the series characters are shown being disintegrated by blasts which would lead you to believe that ki burns, but in early Dragonball it would appear that the ki just hits you really hard.

I guess that it disrupts the ki-bonds between their cells, leading to damage. Not only does the physical hit hurt, but also the amount of ki.
Just an assumption.
Also, when Vegeta throws that Ki blast at Goku in the Saiyan arc, and Goku barely dodges, he gets a would that could be seen as a burn, either by the blast or by the friction.

Bussani · Post by **Bussani** » Wed Nov 11, 2009 7:07 pm

Godo wrote:I guess that it disrupts the ki-bonds between their cells, leading to damage.

I dunno.. If a ki blast can blow up a rock, then I think it would have the same effect on a person.

Post by **Herms** » Wed Nov 11, 2009 7:25 pm

I remember that the early printings of Viz's DBZ vol.3 had Goku refer to the attack he uses to deflect Nappa's mouth blast as a "fireball", rather than a Kamehameha like he originally does. I think this was changed in later printings though. Either way, I doubt Viz was trying to impy that Goku shot actual fire at Nappa; they were probaby just using "fireball" as a catch-all term for all ki attacks, like what Bussani was saying.

Godo · Post by **Godo** » Thu Nov 12, 2009 1:01 am

Bussani wrote:
Godo wrote:I guess that it disrupts the ki-bonds between their cells, leading to damage.
I dunno.. If a ki blast can blow up a rock, then I think it would have the same effect on a person.

Then it affects the atoms, letting it out of equilibrium, disrupting the bonds. Then it wouldn't matter if the materia is living or dead.

Piccolo Daimao · Post by **Piccolo Daimao** » Thu Nov 12, 2009 4:02 pm

Vegeta didn't throw a fireball at Goku. It was chi that formed that chi blast. Characters in Dragon Ball can't generate fire, otherwise it wouldn't be a chi blast that they were firing.
I think, probably, the chi blasts cause fire and explosions etc because, well, I suppose it's friction. Chi is referred to as energy numerous times, and, as we know, whenever we rub our hands together or a car's tyre have been rubbing against the road when it's in use, it will become warm or hot. That's to do with our energy. Now, think about the characters in the series who are generating their energy to fire off energy blasts and the like. When it hits the ground, it's going to make so much friction that it could cause the ground to burn, or explode. I guess friction is sort of caused by heat.
Chi blasts are hot, though. We saw characters being disintegrated by chi blasts and turned to ashes, which happened when you're burned. Goku's hands are burned when he blocks Tao Pai Pai's Dodonpa, and Piccolo's clothes are burned when Nappa launches the chi blast that killed him and there's even smoke from the singes on his body. So, chi isn't the same as fire, but it can affect a person like fire.
Chi can be used in different ways. Not all chi attacks explode on impact, so it depends on how you use it.

Bussani · Post by **Bussani** » Fri Nov 13, 2009 7:52 pm

Godo wrote:
Bussani wrote:
Godo wrote:I guess that it disrupts the ki-bonds between their cells, leading to damage.
I dunno.. If a ki blast can blow up a rock, then I think it would have the same effect on a person.
Then it affects the atoms, letting it out of equilibrium, disrupting the bonds. Then it wouldn't matter if the materia is living or dead.

Or it's just a pent up kinetic force that goes off like a grenade.

Godo · Post by **Godo** » Sat Nov 14, 2009 1:39 pm

Bussani wrote:
Godo wrote:
Bussani wrote: I dunno.. If a ki blast can blow up a rock, then I think it would have the same effect on a person.
Then it affects the atoms, letting it out of equilibrium, disrupting the bonds. Then it wouldn't matter if the materia is living or dead.
Or it's just a pent up kinetic force that goes off like a grenade.

Then please explain Cell's death and Buu's death. It's more like a cell by cell tearing up than a huge blast.