Super Buu vs Kid Buu

[hleV]

How come this isn't discussed here? There was a thread like this with like 4 posts in it but it was closed without an explaination.

So, which form of Majin Buu is stronger? Kid Buu or Super Buu? Which one would win? What actually are Kid Buu and Super Buu and how those forms ever appeared?
Opinion isn't needed here, use manga as a reference. If there are smart people who are familiar with manga and its characters, a conclusion might possibly be made.

If possible, please don't include Gotenks Buu, Piccolo Buu or Gohan Buu into this thread.

Discuss.

I'll start. I can't really compare those two myself. Different fighters with different power fought different forms of Majin Buu.

1. Majin Buu started as Kid Buu.
2. Kid Buu absorbed Southern Supreme Kai (Southern Kaioshin) and probably became Buff Buu (wasn't in manga).
3. Buff Buu absorbed Grand Kai (Dai Kaioshin) and became Fat Buu (who was weaker than SSJ3 Goku).
4. Fat Buu then split into Evil Buu and Good Buu.
5. Evil Buu ate Good Buu and became Super Buu.
6. Super Buu got Fat Buu, who also contained Southern Supreme Kai and Grand Kai, disconnected.
7. Super Buu reverted to Buff Buu, then to Kid Buu.
8. Kid Buu spitted Good Buu out.

Dabura has stated that Kais' energy cannot be used to resurrect Majin Buu. What could it mean?

[B]

I don't think there's enough evidence to say. I guess you could make the argument Genuine Buu is stronger since he was weakened when combined with Dai Kaioushin/Fat Buu, while Pure Evil Buu was two in one. But really, the two Buu in question don't fight the same people, and we see them fight fairly differently.

I'm gonna say if one is stronger than the other, the gap is short as hell.

[Bussani]

This has, in fact, been discussed before. It may have happened in other threads, though, which may be why you can't find it.

There isn't a lot of real evidence, but one thing I think is worth mentioning is that Goku claimed neither Vegeta nor he stood a chance against Super Buu. He said this once they got him to transform back into "Super Buu" by freeing the people inside him. Once they pull Fat Buu out and escape from his body, he changes into Kid Buu, and both of them suddenly think they can handle him. The real question is whether they were right or not, since SSJ3 Goku doesn't win, and SSJ2 Vegeta gets creamed by him as well.

[hleV]

Goku also later stated that Buu was only playing with them.

Note that when Goku launched a Spirit Bomb into Kid Buu, Kid Buu's Kamehameha did no effect to the Spirit Bomb. But later Kid Buu managed to push the Spirit Bomb back with his bare hands. That seems like he has shown his true power only then, rejecting Goku's idea of him being able to handle Kid Buu in fully-powered SSJ3 form.

[Terra-jin]

There's a lot of points that can be made in favor of both Buus. I can't be bothered to dig 'em all up... there's a youtube video somewhere that summed them up quite nicely.

I'll just give you my take on it: Super Buu is stronger. Basically, Buu has his own evil power and the Kaioshin's good power in him. The Kaioshin's power conflicts with Buu's power, causing him to be weakened. This is never directly stated - except in the dub of course - but it can be inferred from Babidi's statement that he couldn't use the energy of East Kaioshin or Kibito.
Now, Super Buu somehow got around this. Where Fat Buu's power was lowered by the Kaioshin's energy, Super Buu managed to circumvent the subtraction. When Buu separated, Mr. Buu was the one holding the Kaioshin's power. However, Mr. Buu indirectly put out the energy, making his energy neutral (like Gohan or Goku's). This meant that it could be used by Super Buu. He had indirect access to the energy, which prevented the conflict between the two types of energies. You could say that the energy was converted from a 'good Kaioshin type' to a 'neutral type' because of Mr. Buu. I hope this makes sense... kinda hard to put in words.

So Super Buu is stronger than Kid Buu by exactly the power of both Kaioshin. Evil Buu was exactly as strong as Kid Buu.

There's a few points of evidence that contradict this, but plausible answers can be given to all of them. I'll list two of them:

"But Evil Buu fared better against Mr. Buu than Kid Buu did."
That's true, but Evil Buu was still spiritually connected with Mr. Buu (like Kami and Piccolo), hence the advantage. Kid Buu and Mr. Buu were two completely separate beings, which is why Kid Buu couldn't read Mr. Buu's attacks as well as Evil Buu.

"But if the Kaioshin weaken Buu, why was the big Buu (from South Kaioshin) stronger than Super Buu? Goku and Vegeta said so."
They did state this, however it could've been a momentary surge of energy, due to the strain of the forced transformation. In his writhing agony of losing his old self, Buu's power rose to the surface.

[rereboy]

I will state my opinion on the matter of the buus:

- Fat evil buu has the power of the Kaioshins and his original power. But Dai Kaioshin suppressed greatly his power by being absorbed. He was a lot weaker than he should be.

- Grey Buu has the same power as the original buu (kid buu). In fact, he`s all that buu is if we take away his good side and anything that buu gained when he absorbed the kaioshins. So, when Fat buu expelled Grey Buu, all that remained in the Good Buu was everything that he gained when he absorbed the kaioshins, including his good side. His original power and evil went to Grey Buu and that is why Grey Buu was stronger than Good Buu.

Grey Buu also looks different from Kid Buu only because of the nature of the process that formed Grey Buu. Grey Buu was intentionally expelled by Fat Buu using a natural process, essentially creating a new being.
But Super Buu reverted back to Kid Buu because Vegeta made him go through a unnatural process of transformation, that made his body revert not to Grey Buu (although it would also make sense if he did) but to Kid Buu, his original form, who is essentially the same as Grey Buu, but with different looks due to that unnatural process of transformation.

Compared to Fat Evil Buu, who was heavily suppressed, Good Buu is weaker, and I would say that Grey Buu is about as strong as Fat Evil Buu was but more wicked or somewhat stronger.

- Good Buu is the weakest buu of them all, due to what I explained.

- Super Buu is even stronger than Grey Buu. By absorbing Good Buu he increased his power and he didn`t get any power suppressions like Fat Evil Buu had, except when it came to kill mr. satan.

- Gotenks-Buu is a even stronger form of Buu, created by absorbing SSJ3 Gotenks.

- Piccolo-Buu is stronger than Super Buu but weaker than Gotenks-Buu. He has the power and the intellect of Piccolo added to his own.

- Gohan-Buu is simply the strongest Buu. Created by absorbing Mystic Gohan.

- Muscle Buu. He was created when Buu absorbed South Kaioshin. Logic states that he is stronger than Kid buu but its unclear how he compares to other forms of Buu like Super Buu.

- Kid buu. The original form. He is as powerful as Grey Buu and weaker than Super Buu. We know this because while in Super Buu`s body Goku stated that if he and Vegeta faced Super Buu unfused they would be killed. However when he reverted back to Kid Buu, they were both relieved and confident that they would have at least a shot at defeating him. Adding this to what I explained about Grey Buu, he get the conclusion I stated.

So, in conclusion:

Good Buu < Fat Evil Buu/Grey Buu/Kid Buu < Super Buu (Muscle buu??) < Piccolo Buu < Gotenks Buu < Gohan Buu

(The ones which are tied with other forms might not have exactly the same power but be around that power. The forms separated by "<" are, however, significantly apart from each other in terms of power).

[Hujio]

How come this isn't discussed here? There was a thread like this with like 4 posts in it but it was closed without an explaination.

So, which form of Majin Buu is stronger? Kid Buu or Super Buu? Which one would win?

I'll start. I can't really compare those two myself. Different fighters with different power fought different forms of Majin Buu.

You basically answered your own questions, almost negating the purpose of the thread. Things like this aren't typically discussed, at least not for very long, because there's no real answer and most threads like this will degrade quickly as people start to disagree. It's like asking which came first, the chicken or the egg.

[goku the krump dancer]

I think Kid Buu is stronger than plain Super Buu...We all know he suddenly gets stronger when reverting to Buff Buu but nothing about his power is ever stated again...When Goku says "yeah we can take him" I think that was more of an insult on Buu's stature than an actual fact, Goku's insult followed Vegeta's "Look at our little friend".

[Senzu_Bean]

There isn't really a way to say each one of them is stronger because everything that can be counted to estimate their powers can have different interpretations. In my personal opinion Chibi Buu is definitely stronger. This incarnation is the strongest Majin Buu besides Shin Buu with Gotenks and Gohan absorbed.

But I too believe Goku is actually the strongest of the good guys. Yep, even stronger than Gohan and Gotenks.

[rereboy]

I think Kid Buu is stronger than plain Super Buu...We all know he suddenly gets stronger when reverting to Buff Buu but nothing about his power is ever stated again...When Goku says "yeah we can take him" I think that was more of an insult on Buu's stature than an actual fact, Goku's insult followed Vegeta's "Look at our little friend".

I seriously doubt that both Goku and Vegeta suddenly lost their ability to sense ki or their plain old common sense just because Kid Buu became smaller. They fought Freeza and he was no giant in his final form.

Besides that, Goku said that he could kill Kid buu if he only had time to concentrate all his power as a SSJ3. Super Buu fought with a fused sayan going SSJ3 and they were in the same level of power. Gotenks in his base form is much stronger than any sayan in his base form, Gotenks in his SSJ1 is much stronger than any SSJ1 sayan... Why exactly wouldn`t he be much stronger at SSJ3 than any SSJ3? And even though this is perfectly logical, somehow Goku states that he can kill Kid Buu in his SSJ3 if he concentrates, and the only reason why he doesn`t, is because he didn`t know that he couldn`t keep the form as well while being alive. The only way this can make sense is if Kid buu is weaker than Super Buu.

Not to mention that Goku flat out said they would be killed if they fought Super Buu and moments later after Kid Buu appears he states that they can take care of that one.

There isn't really a way to say each one of them is stronger because everything that can be counted to estimate their powers can have different interpretations. In my personal opinion Chibi Buu is definitely stronger. This incarnation is the strongest Majin Buu besides Shin Buu with Gotenks and Gohan absorbed.

But I too believe Goku is actually the strongest of the good guys. Yep, even stronger than Gohan and Gotenks.

I respect your opinion, but why would SSJ3 Goku be stronger than SSJ 3 Gotenks if base Gotenks is superior any sayan in his base and SSJ 1 Gotenks is superior to any SSJ 1 sayan?

[hleV]

rareboy, it seems that you're completely ignoring my post. I'll quote it for you:

Goku also later stated that Buu was only playing with them.

Note that when Goku launched a Spirit Bomb into Kid Buu, Kid Buu's Kamehameha did no effect to the Spirit Bomb. But later Kid Buu managed to push the Spirit Bomb back with his bare hands. That seems like he has shown his true power only then, rejecting Goku's idea of him being able to handle Kid Buu in fully-powered SSJ3 form.

[goku the krump dancer]

Vegeta didnt realize Kid Buu's strength until he actually fought him. So what was the point of his confidence if he knew Kid Buu was stronger than him from the start.? Also can you explain why Gohan who was supposed to be Saikyo no Senshi needed Piccolo's confirmation to see if Kid Buu was dead rather than doing it himself?

[rereboy]

rareboy, it seems that you're completely ignoring my post. I'll quote it for you:

Goku also later stated that Buu was only playing with them.

Note that when Goku launched a Spirit Bomb into Kid Buu, Kid Buu's Kamehameha did no effect to the Spirit Bomb. But later Kid Buu managed to push the Spirit Bomb back with his bare hands. That seems like he has shown his true power only then, rejecting Goku's idea of him being able to handle Kid Buu in fully-powered SSJ3 form.

Kid buu`s kamehameha did not affect the Genki Dama because the Genki Dama was much more powerful than any Kamehameha Kid Buu could shoot. So he could`t destroy the Genki Dama.

However, the Genki Dama`s thrust doesn`t depend solely on its own power but also on the power of the one who is throwing it. Goku was pretty much without any energy at that point, and that was why Kid Buu was able to resist the Genki Dama`s thrust. Once Goku had his energy restored, it was child`s play.

I fail to see how that is relevant to the discussion. There is no doubt that Kid Buu is very, very strong. The point is, is he weaker than Super Buu or not?

As for Goku stating that Kid Buu was playing with them... Of course he was. Kid Buu was at least as strong as SSJ 3 Goku and he could regenerate in an instant and as many times as he wanted without apparently ever losing any stamina. He`s an amazing foe... Goku wasn`t really causing any relevant damage since he had similar power and endlessly regeneration and stamina, and Vegeta was a joke compared to Kid buu. To beat him a fighter would have to summon power stronger than Kid Buu and destroy him completly... Goku tried to do this by summoning all his power in a minute... But he found out that the SSJ3 form was harder to do while being alive... And so they used the Genki Dama.

But the fact still remains, Goku and Vegeta thought they had a shot agaisnt Kid Buu, but Goku thought they would simply be killed if they went agaisnt Super Buu.
And yes, they really had a shot agaisnt Kid Buu. If Goku had been able to maintain his SSJ3 form as well as he could while being dead, he would probably be able to destroy Kid Buu after powering up for that whole minute. But he didn`t predict that he would have that drawback.

Vegeta didnt realize Kid Buu's strength until he actually fought him. So what was the point of his confidence if he knew Kid Buu was stronger than him from the start.? Also can you explain why Gohan who was supposed to be Saikyo no Senshi needed Piccolo's confirmation to see if Kid Buu was dead rather than doing it himself?

Vegeta had confidence that they (Goku and Vegeta) had a shot agaisnt Kid Buu. Vegeta knew how strong Goku was. He watched him from the afterlife. He was counting on that power. He knew that him alone, wouldn`t be able to beat him, but with Goku and helping Goku (since Goku was more powerful) they might be able to destroy him.

Also, being stronger than someone doesn`t mean that automatically that person senses ki better. I imagine that Piccolo reads ki at least as well as Gohan.

[Senzu_Bean]

I respect your opinion, but why would SSJ3 Goku be stronger than SSJ 3 Gotenks if base Gotenks is superior any sayan in his base and SSJ 1 Gotenks is superior to any SSJ 1 sayan?

Is he?! There isn't anything flat out stated that indicates Gotenks is stronger than Goku.

[rereboy]

I respect your opinion, but why would SSJ3 Goku be stronger than SSJ 3 Gotenks if base Gotenks is superior any sayan in his base and SSJ 1 Gotenks is superior to any SSJ 1 sayan?

Is he?! There isn't anything flat out stated that indicates Gotenks is stronger than Goku.

You are right, there isn`t, but if you look into the manga you see that even in his base form Gotenks impresses everyone with his sheer amount of ki.

Also, in just his SSJ1, he is able to outrun Piccolo for almost half an hour (and take a nap), and later hold his ground agaisnt Super Buu. The same Super Buu that is stated to be stronger than Evil Fat Buu that easily took care of Gohan and Vegeta. And, at least, Vegeta was a SSJ2.

So, what conclusions do you draw from that? For me the conclusion is simple. Gotenks in his base is stronger than any unfused base Sayan shown and in his SSJ 1 he is stronger than any unfused SSJ 1 shown. And of course, logically in his SSJ 3 he is also stronger than any unfused SSJ3. If the fusion indeed produces a warrior greater than the sum of both fighters, then this makes perfect sense.

Also, we see the same thing with Vegetto, but in Vegetto case there is even a bigger difference.

[Senzu_Bean]

You are right, there isn`t, but if you look into the manga you see that even in his base form Gotenks impresses everyone with his sheer amount of ki.

I believe he didn't. Piccolo didn't even thought Gotenks was anything special at Super Saiyan.

Also, in just his SSJ1, he is able to outrun Piccolo for almost half an hour (and take a nap), and later hold his ground agaisnt Super Buu. The same Super Buu that is stated to be stronger than Evil Fat Buu that easily took care of Gohan and Vegeta. And, at least, Vegeta was a SSJ2.

All Super Saiyans, besides Goten and Trunks, could have achieved the same thing. Besides Shin Buu wasn't taking Gotenks seriously at all.

At least that is my view on this. Like I said there are numerous interpretations.

[rereboy]

At least that is my view on this. Like I said there are numerous interpretations.

Of course. Mine is the one which makes more sense to me. Thats all there is to it.

[caejones]

How come this isn't discussed here? There was a thread like this with like 4 posts in it but it was closed without an explaination.

It's resulted in ridiculous, endless pseudo-debates / flamewars more than once, and... ugh... *flashbacks to early 2007*.
Basically, the way this specific topic has gone in the past made me speak aloud "No! Why won't it die!" the instant I read the title of this thread.
Vs Topics can be interesting, sure. Usually they collapse into an entirely different beast, though, and this specific one did that years ago.

On topic?
I think Toriyama deliberately didn't say so he could make Goku the hero without having to think about who is stronger than who. Well, that, and it'd be kind of dangerous to cheapen the "final boss" by openly stating that he's weaker than the previous opponent... and yet, it wasn't openly stated (in the manga, anyway) that Kid Buu is stronger than his previous incarnations, either.
I'm going to trust Goku's judgment, though, that he could have taken Kid Buu at full power, but not Super Buu. Dabura and Babidi talking about Kaioshin and Kibitto's viability for reviving Buu is way more open to interpretation than Goku's forty-two-volume-supported fighting sense. But eh.

[Bussani]

I think Kid Buu is stronger than plain Super Buu...We all know he suddenly gets stronger when reverting to Buff Buu but nothing about his power is ever stated again...When Goku says "yeah we can take him" I think that was more of an insult on Buu's stature than an actual fact, Goku's insult followed Vegeta's "Look at our little friend".

So, they claim that neither of them stand a chance against Super Buu. Then Buu's ki increases. Then they "insult" him by saying they can take him only to then turn down fusion because they can apparently do it themselves?

Nah, I don't agree with this. Goku even admits later that they should have used the Potara. He thought he could handle it, which to me means that Buu's ki went back down after that Buff transformation. Of course, that doesn't necessarily prove Kid Buu is the weakest -- it just means that his ki appeared lower at that time, and even with the Earth-killing blast, Goku still thought he had a chance of beating him alone.

[Drayenko]

Well, when they are (Goku and Vegeta) inside Buu's body, Goku was as scared as hell to fight Super Buu, and he fought Kid Buu without hesitation. So that makes Super Buu stronger I suppose. That's my opinion.